Quickies

Skepchick Quickies 11.17

  • Would modern porn be less awful if its founders hadn’t hated women? – “Even as their magazines wither, contemporary, online porn continues in the tradition they established. And unfortunately, that tradition includes a strong, but not at all inevitable, dose of misogyny.” From John.
  • She’s just an attention whore – “As any women who’s online a lot (in certain places) or who games will tell you, the number one sin is admitting you’re female. The second you let that bit of information slip, you’re told one (or more) of the following three things: (1) tits or GTFO, (2) get back to the kitchen, or (3) you’re just an attention whore.”
  • Wearing a ring to discourage men – “As a writer covering one of the biggest biotechnology industries in the country, getting hit on is an occupational hazard for me…So when I heard that a startup in Seattle called Ms. Taken was making fake engagement rings, I ordered one.” From Michael.
  • Need a present for a little girl? – Todd suggests this great t-shirt from Think Geek.

Amanda

Amanda is a science grad student in Boston whose favorite pastimes are having friendly debates and running amok.

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62 Comments

  1. Does a ring actually discourage men?

    As a man, I can tell you that in my experience wearing a wedding ring is an encouragement to women. It’s a magnet, for some reason.

    As for engagement rings – isn’t the engagement ring itself a bit of a sexist anachronism? I would think feminists would eschew them, or at least purchase something similar for their mate to make it equal.

    Regarding the porn and misogyny issue – nothing is a worse turn off than when a someone is hurt or is mistreated in pornography. It’s awful.

    1. As a wearer of a real engagement ring (though not of the usual diamond solitaire type), I don’t see it as a sexist anachronism. Yes, we did talk about getting one for my partner but didn’t end up doing that.

      We do crack jokes about it being my “I’m taken” symbol but since that’s not the spirit that it was given in, I don’t really think about it that way. And yes, it is *really* handy when sketchy dudes start hitting on you.

      1. The entire custom of men culturally having to purchase expensive items for women, but not vice versa, seems to be by definition sexist. And, it seems to be an anachronism, since it comes from the day when men gave something of value to a woman as security, and in exchange he got the woman. Obviously, the spirit in which your own ring was, as you say, not that, but the tradition itself is born of historical sexism. Here is a thing on MSN about it (and other sexist relationship anachronisms): http://glo.msn.com/relationships/do-these-traditions-prevent-gender-equality-7318.gallery?photoId=56361#!stackState=0__%2Frelationships%2Fdo-these-traditions-prevent-gender-equality-7318.gallery%3FphotoId%3D56377

    2. Does a ring actually discourage men?
      I can’t speak for other people, but YES for me. When I was single, I would wear a fake engagement ring to work. It reduced the come ons. I think most guys are nice guys and respect that if you are wearing a ring, that you are in a committed relationship.

    3. Whenever I hear guys say that a wedding band increases womens interest I wonder if in fact it just increases attention.
      If you are a single woman in a room full of men, you might gravitate to the one who is married because he is “safe” i.e. less likely to hit on you or make a scene if you turn him down when he does. Thus men who put on the ring notice an increase in attention form otherwise aloof women and conclude that the ring makes them more attractive. Which, in a way does, but not in the way they think.

      1. In my personal experience, and in the experience of any married man that I’ve known, it’s not just an increase in the number of women “gravitating” toward men with wedding bands. It’s an increase in overtures and aggressive sexual intimations and come-ons. While I know it is common to think of men as clueless, we’re not stupid.

        It’s apparently a pretty common thing called “mate poaching” or “The Angelina Jolie Effect.” http://news.softpedia.com/news/Married-Men-Are-a-Better-Catch-Ladies-Believe-119241.shtml “This finding indicates that single women are considerably more interested in pursuing a man who is less available to them. This may be because a man who is attached has already shown his ability to commit and, in a sense, has been pre-screened by another woman. The results showed that only single women were more interested in pursuing an attached target rather than a single target.” the researchers write in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology, as quoted by the aforementioned publication.” http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/science-news/6025978/Women-like-to-poach-attached-men.html

  2. Porn is actually evolving. The pro-porn studios who produce the fake “bow-chicka-wow” porn aren’t selling nearly as much as they used to.

    Amateur porn has come much more to light and it’s both more real and more likely to be non-sexist. So support your local indie pornographers (which also happen to be your neighbors 3 houses down).

    1. I reference this…”It’s interesting to consider what a porn industry started by an entirely different set of men, a set of men who loved women, might have looked like.”
      May I suggest that a set of men who loved women were to consider porn in that light, they would have have another beer and say ” yeah sure man,hahaha, your sister, your wife, your DAUGHTER.. fuck off!!!, NEXT!!!!”

    1. Conservatives, I think, would be more likely to support restrictions on “hitting on” women, since they are more likely to be Christian and in favor of monogamous marriage and abstention from premarital sex.

      To me, “hitting on” women is not necessarily sexist. The liberal view is that of the sexual revolution and the emancipation of women from traditional cultural constraints limiting their sexuality. Women ought to be free to date or not date who they choose, and the ancient notions of chivalry and protecting a woman’s “honor” were supposedly done away with.

      The question ultimately becomes one of decorum and etiquette, really. When and where is it appropriate to approach another PERSON to express some sort of attraction or potential attraction, to ask another PERSON out on a date, or such other “hit ons” or “come ons?”

  3. Amateur porn! Woo!

    Misogyny in porn is nothing new, but now it has taken on a sort of extreme sport mentality on top of it that is just horrifying. I blame the Internet more than the publishing dinosaurs, because I think the sheer volume is desensitizing especially to that limited number of people who actually still pay for porn. I guess a test of that idea would be if anyone here is a huge fan of gay male porn and if they’ve seen a similar uptick in extreme “stunt fucking” over the last ten years or so.

    1. Stunt fucking?

      Is that like falling off a 40 foot dildo into a pool of KY jelly? Or does it involve flames? I hope it’s not on horseback, that would be cruel…
      to the horse.
      And there are to be no plate-glass windows ever.
      So… many… reasons.

    2. “I guess a test of that idea would be if anyone here is a huge fan of gay male porn and if they’ve seen a similar uptick in extreme “stunt fucking” over the last ten years or so.”

      You might be interested in the comment I made below, which outlined what the most popular porn sites were when I worked for a 3rd party billing site that deals mostly in porn.

      There is some really degrading gay porn out there! But it’s not quite as common as degrading straight porn, and usually not as elaborate. Gay porn is still fairly new in mainstream porn, though, and it’s gaining speed. It’ll be interesting to see if it aligns more with mainstream straight porn as the decades go on.

      But “twink” porn is VERY, VERY popular, as is “being the first to fuck a straight guy”. Both are probably the most common of all gay porn. It’s very similar to your run-of-the-mill “teen” or “first time anal” porn.

  4. For years there has been discussion amongst sales people the value of wearing a fake engagement or wedding band. Although the ring I wear looks nothing like either it has played an important part in my career. I along with a handful of friends have dawned the rings and all saw increases in our sales. I didn’t dress any different I didn’t say anything different all I did was put a ring on my wedding finger. I know that is anecdotal and a very small, unscientific survey of people but we all had similar results. For many, especially in the older crowd, the symbol of the ring lends credibility to the one wearing it. Also, it does in general cut down on the creep factor!

  5. Regarding the women in gaming article – This part struck me — “Women have no agency; no interests; the only thing they want is male approval and attention.”

    I think the article kind of overcomplicates it. Boys picking on girls online has a lot to do with boys picking on anyone (online or otherwise). Boys in our culture break balls, so to speak, and they aren’t just singling out girls when doing it. Boys are ruthless to other boys – even their friends – perhaps ESPECIALLY their friends.

    They may do it in a sexist way by using blurbs like “tits or GTFO” and that sort of thing – but, it’s likely they are far more brutal to their male friends, namecalling, challenges to manhood, and all that sort of thing.

    I think there may be a disconnect between the sexes on this kind of thing. A college guy will address his friend as “dickface” or other slurs — while playing online games they will routinely refer to each other by slanderous and scurrilous terms – bring each other’s mothers into it – and berate and chide each other mercilessly.

    It’s not something teenager boys and young men take very seriously. Generally, if you’re friends aren’t calling you names, trashing you’re dorm room, or reveling in you making an ass out of yourself, they probably don’t like you very much…

    For a guy to say “tits or gtfo” is nothing more serious than if he tells his male friend an asshole.

    1. You don’t see the difference between a guy jokingly calling his friend a “dickface” and a guy calling a woman he’s never met an “attention whore” and telling her to leave/shut up or continuing to harass her?

      (In the interest of full disclosure, that blog is mine.)

      1. Guys will jokingly say nasty stuff to guys they don’t know, but are gaming with, on the internet too. And, if a guy is bad at the game or a “noob” that guy will be run through the gauntlet of namecalling too. And, to suggest that guys playing online games don’t continually tell each other to shut up and that sort of thing is to not have played much in the way of online interactive gaming. It’s constant – usually of the “shut the fuck up” variety.

        The point is that for teenage boys and college kids, such banter among each other is normal.

          1. Very interesting article. I would be interested to know the disparity between the number of male users and female users on the chat systems which were part of the study. If the overwhelming number of users are male, then one would expect that far more sexual overtures would be made toward women than men. The article does not specify that piece of information, though.

          2. Starstuff –

            I was hoping you might have more info on that study. Plainly, it constitutes some evidence, but the demographics of the sample/pool of chat site users is, I think you’d agree, important in understanding what the numbers quoted in the article mean.

            Do you have a link to the actual paper? I’ve googled, but I’m not coming up with it.

            Thanks for the interesting post.

            John M.

          1. O.k. – so –

            Someone citing ONE example of a “nerd girl” meme is evidence, but I respond by showing many examples of other memes involving “nerd guys” and you attack my evidence as insufficient? Funny!

            Also, women aren’t the only ones subject to sexism. Sexism is not the exclusive province of women, and I retain the right (as every other human being has) to express an opinion about what is and is not sexist. Defining or opining on what is or isn’t sexist is the sole and exclusive province of women. Your suggestion that it is only women who should have an opinion on the topic, well…that’s sexist in and of itself.

            As for your personal attacks. If you can have a reasonable discussion, then let’s have it, but there is no need for this garbage: “Seriously, fuck off with your bullshit mansplaining to women what is or isn’t sexist.”

            I won’t fuck off, and I won’t accept the ridiculous, idiotic, puerile, and fatuous nonsense from you denigrating my comment with the overtly sexist term “mansplaining.” You have the unmitigated gall to pretend to care about “sexism” and then use a sexist term like “mansplain” to attack me? Of all the nerve…

            Have a nice day, and do keep up the good work. :-)

          1. I’m engaged in this discussion, and have been doing so politely. Then you and BeccatheCyborg come along and start after me without provocation with this “mansplaining” and other nonsense.

            That term is used to denigrate and belittle the opinion of men, and is itself inherently sexist. If sexism is something you are against, then you won’t use that term. If it’s only sexism against women that bothers you, then of course you’ll have no problem continuing to use it.

            I do enjoy this discussion, so I do hope you and BeccatheCyborg will see your way clear to not disrupt the thread with more of your extraneous personal attacks. If you disagree with what I’ve typed, I am sure we can discuss the disagreement. I’d be happy to.

            Go ahead and keep hitting me, though. I won’t hit back.

        1. When nearly every single woman here has the same opinion of you … it’s probably time to take a long, hard look at yourself, and realize it’s not us, but you.

          You routinely ignore links and statistics posted by women; you routinely brush women aside; you routinely pretend not to understand what sexism is, and make us have to explain it to you over and over and over again, when it is not our job; you routinely ignore the history of sexism and the societal power differences between the sexes and seem to think that a male gamer being calling another male gamer a dickface is anywhere similar as male gamers routinely harassing female gamers (it’s NOT THE SAME THING).

          You never listen. You just spew the same bullshit over and over. You never learn.

          It might be helpful to actually educate yourself. It is not our job to educate you; it is your job. Yet you insist on spewing the same exact crap in EVERY SINGLE DISCUSSION. It’s getting tiresome.

          http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/the-faqs/faq-roundup/

          And you are fucking amazing at derailing. Here, educate yourself:

          http://derailingfordummies.com/

          Some specifics:

          http://derailingfordummies.com/#butbut

          http://derailingfordummies.com/#overemotional

          http://derailingfordummies.com/#hostile

          But honestly, you should probably read the entire website. And LEARN something for once. Educate yourself. It’s not my fucking job. http://derailingfordummies.com/#educate

          Of course, I just expect you to blather on the same as you have in the past, without actually educating yourself. Your habit of continently ignoring nearly every link that any women here provides is pretty telling: You don’t care what we have to say. You have no intentions of listening to us. You just want to fucking mansplain and tell us we’re WRONG WRONG WRONG, without actually educating yourself.

          You’re the worst kind of troll, really. You insist you’re being genuine. But you’re not genuine at all.

          You just want to pick a fight and be the Devil’s Advocate, but you’re not at all honest about it. The thread about using different insults is a REALLY telling one: You didn’t even read any of the post, and it was blatantly obvious in your comments! You are a sorry excuse for a skeptic. A true skeptic would actually learn and grow … but you forever stay the same.

          1. Can you just stay away from me, then? What is your problem? I was discussing the issue civilly with others until you and BeccatheCyborg came along saw fit to attack me.

            You say: “When nearly every single woman here has the same opinion of you … it’s probably time to take a long, hard look at yourself, and realize it’s not us, but you.”

            That’s not true. Just because you mouth off and act like a little child, and engage in personal attacks, that doesn’t mean everyone else is. Everything was going fine until you and BeccatheCyborg decided to start slinging mud. See my other posts – we had calm, rational exchanges.

            You say: “You routinely ignore links and statistics posted by women;”

            That’s false. If you’ll look above to the post where a woman posted a link, I commented exactly on it: see the post wherein I begin, “Interesting article…” The only one ignoring anything is you, marilove.

            Moreover, what do you care what I write or post? Why is it so important for you to badger me? Can you just leave me alone? Surely if I had been doing something wrong, a moderator would have said something to me. Of course, I was told to “fuck off” by BeccatheCyborg, and then you and she both proceeded to hurl the “mansplainer” insult at me. I’ve yet to respond, and I won’t. Like I said before, I won’t hit back.

            Then you say, ” you routinely brush women aside;”

            Again – false. I treat women with respect, and as equals. I have discussions. I agree sometimes, and I disagree other times. You see what you want to see, based on your own biases, prejudices and your own sexism. That’s your baggage, not mine.

            You go on: “you routinely pretend not to understand what sexism is, and make us have to explain it to you over and over and over again, when it is not our job;”

            You haven’t explained to me what you think sexism is, and I have never “pretended not to understand what sexism is.” I know what it is. You’ve also explained nothing “over and over again.” You’re just making things up. Please just grow up and if you’d like to hold a civil discussion, I’m all ears. If not, just go on your way and leave the discussions to the adults. The other women – the grown ups – with whom I was exchanging posts – were all doing just fine without you coming here and starting a fight. They are smart, intelligent, mature women who don’t need you diving in to block reasoned, rational discussion.

            You go on: “you routinely ignore the history of sexism and the societal power differences between the sexes and seem to think that a male gamer being calling another male gamer a dickface is anywhere similar as male gamers routinely harassing female gamers (it’s NOT THE SAME THING).”

            Maybe it is true that the female gamers are harassed worse. That is precisely what is being discussed. It’s not an assumed fact or an axiom, marilove. It is the issue in the gaming article. That’s why it was posted in the first place — not just for everyone to go “yeah yeah – that’s right – 100% true – no debate required.”

            The point of discussion, marilove, is to DISCUSS. It’s not for one person to announce a position or to preach and lecture, and everyone else to sit there and say “oh, yes, you’re right.” Sometimes people disagree or they haven’t seen an issue from the point of view you are espousing. Sometimes, they have a different point of view. That’s what discussion and debate on an issue is for – to educate BOTH SIDES as to different points of view. Sometimes someone changes their mind from where they were at the beginning. Sometimes they both walk away unchanged. In either case, there is value to the discussion in the first place.

            If what you’re looking for is “my way or the highway” agreement – why is there even a forum here for people to discuss the issue?

            I will be happy to have a discussion, but I’m not going to waste my time with you if you keep on slinging mud and lying about my participation in this discussion (which has at all times been respectful, nonsexist, and civil).

          2. THANK YOU. I started reading comments and responded to just one of romulus’ which was using AskMen as a valid source (I mean, really??)
            I thought he was just clueless, but if this is his normal routine then it’s not worth it to respond to him.
            On the ring thing, I have considered wearing a ring, but I don’t get hit on as much now that I’m visibly over 30, and I’d rather let guys know directly that even single women are not always available for them personally! Not that I blame anyone for wearing one, my hangouts aren’t too bad so I don’t have much to deal with.

        2. “I will be happy to have a discussion”

          HAHAHAHAHAHA.

          How do you expect to have a discussion if you routinely ignore posts and links and don’t even try to listen to what women have to say? Puh-lease. I am seriously laughing over here. You don’t want a fucking discussion. You just want to argue.

      2. Interesting blog, added to my reader :)

        As someone who has always played female characters online, I know how that works and how different genders are treated.

        Also, no point replying to that guy. He’s constantly trying to convince people there is really no problem.

    2. You must not have read my blog post very well. I didn’t just talk about female gamers, I also talked about females in nerd culture, and females who speak out in general. To say that this is just a problem because younger guys “berate” each other (boys will be boys, amiright? ) is ignoring a large part of what I wrote. The sites I linked in that post have grown men calling multiple female activists and celebrities attention whores.

        1. He’s a troll. He doesn’t read links, doesn’t read articles, just comes to the comments and starts poking. And then flails about derailing and gaslighting and opining about things that have nothing to do with anything.

          Pestiferous little shit.

          1. I’m actually starting to believe that he isn’t a … willful troll. He’s just … not a very bright person who likes to argue and be the Devil’s Advocate, but it’s always so, so very obvious he doesn’t even read what he’s arguing against, you can’t take him seriously in any way.

          2. Go ahead, keep on slinging mud and engaging in personal attacks. It’s very transparent.

            And, marilove, please, you are in no position to comment on who is and is not very bright. Let’s assume that I’m not very bright, though. Look at your reaction to it – slander, namecalling, other personal attacks, profanity, vulgarity, sexist male-bashing. It demonstrates quite a lot about you that your reaction to what you perceive as a “not very bright” person commenting not-very-brightly on various topics. And, in case you need clarification, marilove, what it says about you is not particularly flattering.

            This bull about trolling and gaslighting is mere projection on the part of a couple of folks.

            But, carry on. It’s obvious that nothing will change your mindset of conformity and enforced agreement: hold the correct opinion, or face a deluge of ad hominem wrath. That does seem to be your modus operandi.

        2. Is the harassment you are leveling upon me here the kind of harassment that women don’t want to receive when they go to message boards? Various requests to fuck off? Accusations that a person is stupid or “not very bright?” Other profanity? Sexist slurs like “mansplainer” denigrating and demeaning opinions based on sex?

          I appreciate the illustration for everyone the kind of miserable conduct that we’re talking about…the kind of conduct that is the exclusive purview of privileged men, right?

          1. It’s telling that you respond to me and one other person … but not starstuff91, who pointed out the fact that you once again didn’t read what was posted yet still insisted on spewing bullshit.

  6. As someone who worked for about 4 months in a call center for one of the largest 3rd-party billing sites in the world, which deals mostly in porn, I can say pretty certainly what was popular, in rough order:

    -Just normal, high-quality (as in video-quality) stuff. Lots of it is pretty misogynist, but I think most people gravitiate toward that stuff because it’s highly funded and therefore higher quality (video-wise). But, a lot of it is getting better. Depends on the site/brand, really. Slowly getting better. I actually found some really great sites, but I lost the list I made.

    -Teen stuff. Kind of under the umbrella of the above “normal, high-quality stuff”, really. Even if the women really aren’t teens. Almost always very misogynist, though some of it isn’t so bad.

    -Interracial. Almost always very racist and VERY misogynist. Interracial porn is VERY popular. Most of the guys calling in about interracial stuff were southern (likely white) males, not surprisingly!

    -Gay porn (men like porn, gay or straight), which can be just as … degrading as straight porn. Honestly? Guys just really like degrading porn. No matter if it was straight or gay or bisexual, the degrading stuff is really common and really popular.
    —-The most popular gay sites included “twinks” or “straight guys” or “first timers”. Degrading stuff, mostly.
    —-Weirdly, one of THE most popular gay sites involved men dressed up in suits. One of my favorite sites for some reason. Some of it was like the “twink” or “straight guy” stuff, but most of it was pretty tame and non-degrading. I’d look for it, but I’m at work, so. :P

    -Lesbian stuff. Mostly “fake” lesbians, for the male gaze. Very little amateur that I recall.

    -Hairy porn, usually amateur. Surprisingly popular.

    -Chubby porn, mostly amateur.

    -BDSM. Not as much as I was expecting, actually. Lots of it involved the women being dominent, though. Lots of lesbian dominatrix stuff, too, which was probably the most popular type.

    -Amateur. Didn’t see a whole lot of it. I do think most people who watch Amateur stuff aren’t paying for it, though.

    -The weirder stuff. Queen of Farts really does exist!

    Relatedly, the 3rd party billing site I worked for didn’t have them as a client, but Kink.com is probably the best “kinky” site out there. I actually have a close female friend that does porn, and she has done porn for them! She mostly does lesbian and solo kink now. Most of their stuff is either lesbian, with a female domme, or straight, with a male domme. But I’ve heard they treat their women great, and you can always tell that the women (and men) are loving it. These women really do love BSDM (my friend does). At the end, they always have a discussion with the girls and ask them how it was. It always seems genuine. I’m not really into kink, but it’s a good place to go if you are.

    Also … don’t try to find the correct spelling of amateur using Google while at work. LOL

      1. I want to also point out that there’s a free porn EMPIRE out there which basically amount to networks of image/video sharing websites where people don’t pay and the site operators make money from ads.

        Although you’re right, the pro stuff draws a lot of business still even on the free sites, but the amateur empire is very popular there.

        1. Oh, no, I totally know this. :) I have been on the internet since … 94 or 95. And um, porn was one of the first things I looked up. I know allllll about the free porn! I free porn it weekly! Hahaha!

          Whenever someone called in, I wanted to ask them why they paid for porn, when the internet has lots and lots of free porn. But I didn’t, ‘cuz I would have been fired, hahaha.

          Amateur porn is becoming more popular, definitely, but the pro stuff will always be the biggest draw to any site.

          To be honest, I’m often turned off by a lot of amateur stuff because the film-quality is usually horrible: Dark and grainy, and with jerky video or weird angles. But some if it is getting a lot, lot better, because the home equipment is getting better and cheaper.

    1. The swinger stuff is what I like, and on the sites the women are generally in-charge although there is that element of having to appear slutty I think in order to please the clientelle.

      Xtube is a good place to get am stuff too because it lets people like your neighbors or mom & dad sell their amateur porn online and get a direct cut from it!

  7. You know, the difficult thing about critiquing themes and imagery in pornography, is that there is usually more nuance than what most folk will acknowledge.

    For instance, I’ve often heard folks say BDSM is proof for porn’s penchant for celebrating the abuse of women (I’m not saying it can’t be) when there are many layers to BDSM and types of BDSM porn.

    Then there are the lists of sex acts many folks claim are inherently degrading: anal, double penetration, facials, fellatio etc. I know plenty of women who enjoy these acts very much, and enjoy watching them in their porn. They constantly tell me how shaming it is to hear folks, especially other women, speak of these as inherently degrading. They can be, but I don’t think it’s always the case, and it largely depends on the context.

    I’m not at all disagreeing with anything Amanda Marcotte has said, in fact I agree with her. Especially, when she says “It’s unfortunate that these men’s attitudes intertwined with their work until sexism became a standard feature of porn.” I think that is true and a big problem.

    It’s just that, I think it would be nice to point out there exists lots of nuance within the industry and womens’ sexual appetites, even though there certainly exist larger, dominant sexist patterns with roots in the culture and prominent individuals. Not that she is implying there isn’t, only that I’d like to see it mentioned explicitly.

  8. “Sure, there are porn producers who don’t embrace the Fear Factor model (wherein bug-eating is replaced with orifice-stuffing, name-calling, and semen to the eyeballs), but the fact that their work is inevitably designated as “alternative” shows just how badly mainstream porn runs women down.”

    ^I’ve just noticed I’ve overlooked that. Very well, I retract what I said about showing nuance in varieties of porn, and leave in that I wish she would mention variety in women’s sexual proclivities. :3

  9. And it’s completely obvious to me and every one else that you will continue to comment on things you don’t actually read, or care about, because you are only interested in an argument. You did it again in this very post! How can you continue to deny it? Answer me that. When someone posts something, and every time you make a comment, they come back with, “Um, that’s not what I said … you didn’t even read it, did you?” EVERY TIME, this happens … how do you explain that? Please tell me why you don’t read and comprehend anything posted? Ever?

    Again: When everyone feels the same about you (that you are a useless troll)… perhaps it’s time to consider that it’s you and not us.

  10. Is it possible to have porn without objectification? Is there good and bad objectification? What constitutes good objectification from a feminist viewpoint? The purpose of porn is self-gratification (or mutual masturbation, stimulus for foreplay, etc..)while viewing others engaged in sexual acts. What turns one person on may be viewed as degrading to another. For example, the man engaged in mammary intercourse (oh hell!! titty-fucking!!) and this results in a pearl necklace. Variants of this can be found on indie porn with a woman wearing a strap-on plunging her “manhood” into her partner’s grand canyon. Many men and women get turned on by this and other acts. Yet there are many who find these scenes objectifying and degrading to women and therefore offensive (even the indie stuff). If guys like Hef or Flynnt loved women, would they still film these images? So should or even could there be a line drawn between what constitutes “good” and “degrading” porn? I think in a free society, that decision should be left up to the individual viewer.

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