Trigger warning for talk of rape! Obviously.
Well, I’m back from several weeks of travel in Australia and New Zealand, which followed months of weekly conference travel all over the US. Normally I’d take a break after something like that: relax, pet the cats, catch up on Walking Dead. But instead I decided to Tweet something super controversial to satisfy my feminazi need to make men cry:
If you have sex w/ someone who is drunk, they are unable to consent & that is rape.
— RebeccaWatson (@rebeccawatson) December 17, 2012
If you "took advantage" of someone who is unable to consent, it is rape. End of story.
— RebeccaWatson (@rebeccawatson) December 17, 2012
Minds were blown! Up is down! Left is right! Cats and dogs, sleeping together! These two Tweets only raised more questions, and clearly I was the only person on the Internet who could answer them. I was flooded with responses like:
@rebeccawatson What if you are also drunk? Did they rape you as well?
— Stuart Houghton (@stuarthoughton) December 17, 2012
“What if you are also drunk? Did they rape you as well?”
http://twitter.com/TheRealDaius/status/281012830814220288
“@rebeccawatson if someone drinks and drives are can they eschew responsibility for their actions in the same way. … http://tmi.me/D0Gu0”
@rebeccawatson Another question. In marriage. The husband didn't drink because of driving on a saturday night. Wife did. Couldn't make love?
— Jose (@soyunesceptico) December 17, 2012
“@rebeccawatson Another question. In marriage. The husband didn’t drink because of driving on a saturday night. Wife did. Couldn’t make love?”
http://twitter.com/MykDowling/status/280819935045877761
“@rebeccawatson That’s a very binary statement for an undefined condition. At what BAC% is consent impossible? Should we breathalyse before?”
@Zaminuszen @rebeccawatson Sad thing is you even offer the crazy lunatic a cup of coffee and she feels raped. #americangirlyban Enjoy.
— Tim Fuller (@thetimchannel) December 18, 2012
“@Zaminuszen @rebeccawatson Sad thing is you even offer the crazy lunatic a cup of coffee and she feels raped. #americangirlyban Enjoy.”
“According to @rebeccawatson every sexual encounter she has ever had has, in the morning been a rape.”
I’m a crazy lunatic who has been raped hundreds, or maybe BILLIONS of times depending upon whether you’re going with the “Rebecca is a sad virgin” or “Rebecca is a filthy slut” line of argument.
I just blocked most, if not all, of these people because as one follower noted, if you have to debate this fact with your followers, it’s time to get better followers. But I wanted to post about this because I think the psychology of this reaction is very interesting. I think for most of us (Skepchick writers/readers/commenters), this concept is not in any way astonishing. I’m guessing that like me, many of you have had sex. And like me, many of you have had sex while drinking and/or while your partners have been drinking, and it’s not a big deal because you value communication and enthusiastic consent and participation. There’s no stigma against questions like “Would you like it if we . . . ?” and “Is this what you want?” and “Was that okay?”, even (especially!) when those questions are asked in the cold, sober light of day.
And I’m also guessing that like me, if you meet a sexy stranger who is drunk (and I’m going by the common definition here, of someone whose faculties are impaired, e.g., slurred speech, stumbling, etc.), you will not have sex with them, even if they say they’d like to. This isn’t because it’s the law (even though it is, as @simonknowz aptly points out: “Whoever . . . knowingly . . . engages in a sexual act with another person if that other person is . . . (A) incapable of appraising the nature of the conduct . . .”), but because it is the right thing to do. Because you are not so hard up for sex that you need to have sex with someone who may feel regret or revulsion or worse in the morning. Because you don’t assume your partner (yes, even one you’re married to) is in a constant state of consent. Because you don’t get off on the power you can have over someone who doesn’t have full control of their own faculties (or if you do get off on that, you have long, sober conversations with your partner before exploring that as a fantasy).
But not all people are like us, and so, there are the Tweeters who flooded me with their concerns, none of which were for people who have been raped while they were drunk. No, their concerns are for themselves, that they might one day be accused of being rapists because they didn’t give someone a breathalyzer before having sex with them. Here’s a thought: if you’re about to have sex with someone and you feel like they might have drunk too much to consent but you don’t have a breathalyzer handy, then why not err on the side of not being a rapist and not have sex with them?
And they’re comparing drunk sex to drunk driving as though drunk driving is something that is done to the drunk driver. Here’s the non-fallacious analogy: insisting on getting in a car and driving while drunk and no one can stop you is equivalent to insisting on having sex while drunk with a person who is unable to stop you. And yes, in both of those cases you, drunky, are liable.
And elsewhere on the Internet, people like Ed Clint are crowing about how they’re rapists (update: it appears that Ed Clint has removed that post now, so here’s a screenshot of the entire thing just before it disappeared):
Jonathan Figdor: She’s also right about this one. If someone is too drunk to consent, you shouldn’t sleep with them. Sex without consent is the definition of rape.
Ed Clint: Then you should call the cops on me, Jon, and end our acquaintance, as I am a rapist many many times over.
And still elsewhere, people are slamming Franchesca Ramsey for being brave enough to speak out about the rape of drunk people and others who are blamed for their rape. In particular, she discusses how she was shamed when she was raped:
She had to close the comments on that because of the number of people harassing her, so apparently they moved to Twitter:
http://twitter.com/chescaleigh/status/281082425319227394
“you’re an awful person and rape apologist RT @personalmeals: @chescaleigh She is to blame bc she consumed underage and lied to her parents.”
Obviously, there were also plenty of amazing responses to Franchesca, and to me as well. But we have a long way to go in combating the psychological effects of living in a rape culture.
Featured image via here
Wait…so Ed Clint freely admits to having sex with partners who were too drunk to consent?
I call that really, really icky. Fortunately for him, he has friends who will instead call him a Brave Hero.
So, Ed Clint frequently has sex with people who are too drunk to consent? I wonder if they are going to find out by reading this post. People keep telling me I should read his blog. I think I might give it a pass.
This entire conversation was had years ago and largely settled even to the extent that actual laws got passed. But as new generations are hatched and become hormonal, unfortunately, our system does not educate all of them on the basics.
It’s a good thing that we have Twitter, because now they know. Thanks for cleaning that up, Rebecca! I’m sure we can all just move along now to whatever is next on our list of things to do.
But seriously, it has been obvious all along that the same horde that produced these tweets, the Slyme Pit, and all of that is mainly concerned with the fact that they have behaved badly in the past, and would like it better if they could continue to do so in the future, and are trying to not wrestle with what amounts to a critique of their views of what is OK to do and what is not OK to do.
We keep declaring victory too early. We to often act as if our progress is permanent. It’s the same with labor struggles and work against pseudoscience. We are always too eager to hang up the gloves whilst our opponents are still in there swinging.
Eternal Vigilance is the Price of [fill in the blank]
PZ, don’t we win something for saying the same exact thing at the same exact time?
Yeah, I totes raped tons of chicks. But it’s not MY fault. It’s Rebecca Watson’s!
I am just fucking sick of this shit. I have been having this damn conversation since 1987, when I came out as a survivor and gave a take back the night speech.
When. Will. It. END?
I kind of hate everyone online tonight. Going to go cry in my Bug Cave.
Of COURSE they aren’t responsible for raping them. I mean, if it was LEGITIMATE rape, they wouldn’t have been able to! Or, is it that legitimate rapes require signs of a struggle…
God, that ‘Fuck everything’ Onion article feels very relevant right now.
bug_girl, it’s the middle of the day here, but my cleaning all the things frenzy is channeling the fury in your Bug Cave.
I can see why this is controversial. You’re asking people to please act like civilized human beings? To communicate respectfully and act in others’ best interest? Even when it could possibly mean forgoing sex with drunk chicks? This is just too much for my brain to handle.
I think that’s exactly what this is all about. The common thread throughout this whole hideous saga – from the ridiculously overblown reactions to “Guys, don’t do that”, to the equally ridiculous attempts at portraying anti-harassment policies at conferences as “talibanesque”, and now this – seems to be that anything that might make it more difficult for sleazy male perverts to seek pleasure on women’s expense is an atrocity that must be fought at all costs. Ironically this is exactly the kind of predatory male behavior that justifies keeping “dear Muslima” veiled and locked up for her own protection.
“If you have sex w/ someone who is drunk, they are unable to consent & that is rape.”
Newsflash to all assholes – that is not even controversial, it’s the law!
The boat has sailed, the gate has shut, the bird has flown!
Maybe these rapists might want to think twice before admitting their guilt on the internet for all to see.
I’m not going to say it’s impossible to have sex while intoxicated (though the prevalence of date rape and use of alcohol to facilitate rape should make everyone review their views on consent), how could anyone object to “If you “took advantage” of someone who is unable to consent, it is rape. End of story”?
How absurd does your world view have to be for you to deny that someone who could not consent, who you admittedly took advantage of, was raped? Just what the hell is wrong with atheism where this is a respected position within the community?
“There are the Tweeters who flooded me with their concerns, none of which were for people who have been raped while they were drunk.”
I will speak to that then. I’ve had some experiences in which I had sex with someone during a time I was too inebriated to give meaningful consent. But I’ve always been hesitant to call it rape for a few reasons:
1. When drunk, I often times appear totally coherent (I know this because friends of mine have brought up conversations I had with them that I don’t remember having, yet according to them I did not seem drunk.)
2. I’ve also been told I get very sexually aggressive at times that was very inebriated (i.e. meaning I initiated sex.)
3. The person I was having sex with was also very drunk.
Given these three factors: appearing coherent, initiating sex, and a partner who is also drunk, I think at least establishes some kind of grey area. Do you disagree? If so, why?
For me, I put these experiences in the category of “sex I wish I didn’t have” rather than use the R-word. It has also brought up a couple of reoccurring questions in my mind:
If one cannot give meaningful consent when drunk, doesn’t it also stand to reason that one cannot interpret meaningful consent while drunk?
Why is it when two drunk people engage in the same act, one is a victim and the other is a rapist? Why is this always based on the gender?
Can someone be a rapist if they honestly thought the person was giving consent?
Please understand I’m not trying to minimize rape. No one should ever have sex with someone who is clearly drunk. Yes. Absolutely. But that assumes the person can tell that the other is clearly drunk, which is not always the case.
I’d love to hear some responses to this because it’s something I’ve mulled over for a number of years now. I often feel conflicted in an era of outrage over such concepts as “legitimate rape,” yet at the same time I feel like putting my experiences within the “rape” category is a slap in the face to victims of real abuse.
“If one cannot give meaningful consent when drunk, doesn’t it also stand to reason that one cannot interpret meaningful consent while drunk? -Killjoy”
Whether I can interpret signs isn’t relevant to me having done something.or example, if I am drunk and interpret someone’s fear as aggression and strike them hard enough to break bone, I have still broken someone’s bone.
Similarly if I am in bed with someone and I don’t hear the no/misinterpret it, whatever my own intentions, I have still raped someone.
Another issue, and I can’t cite this, it’s something I learned from talking to our battalion UVA, rapists will often consume alchohol alongside their victims (like at frat parties) for 1)deniability 2)to embolden themselves.
“Why is it when two drunk people engage in the same act, one is a victim and the other is a rapist? Why is this always based on the gender? -killjoy”
It isn’t based on the gender. It’s based on the type of sexual contact involved and the coherency required to carry it out. For example, a heavily intoxicated man barely conscious being ridden by a much less intoxicated woman (or man) until he ejaculates. You have the same issue among gay men. One is too drunk to consent, the other is drunk but still has enough control to penetrate the other and hold them down until they climax.
“Can someone be a rapist if they honestly thought the person was giving consent?-killjoy”
Of course, for the same reason a husband can rape his wife. If there was no consent, perception can’t make it appear.
“It isn’t based on the gender. It’s based on the type of sexual contact involved and the coherency required to carry it out.”
Is it not possible that both sides were totally incoherent yet still able to carry out the act? I think it is.
“Of course, for the same reason a husband can rape his wife. If there was no consent, perception can’t make it appear.”
But my point is from the perspective of the other person, as well as any impartial observer, there WAS consent. Not just consent; but sex being initiated by me while appearing coherent. The problem was I was too drunk to realize I was doing, so in reality it wasn’t meaningful consent. But it none the less appeared that way to the other person.
Here’s another question: if rape is rape regardless of the persons’s intentions, shouldn’t some rapists not harbor such a stigma? To use your analogy, if I punch someone in the face because I interpret their fear as aggressions, have I really done something as bad as a person who punches someone in the face because they wanted to?
1. What do you mean by incoherent? Do you just mean heavily slurring speech or slow response time? When I hear the word I think barely able to move so I don’t anything other then maybe weird kissing happening between two people who are incoherent.
2. It’s the same issue. If there was no consent there was no consent whatever third parties believe. Of course no one can tell you you were raped. I get very sexually active after heavy drinking. My wife enjoys it and I enjoy hearing about the things I did with her the night before so it works fine for the two of us.
3. Ranking moral wrongs is tricky but I do think some rapes are worse than other rapes, much like some murders are worse than other murders.
1. I mean blacked out drunk. Some people black out and its very apparent, other people black out and seem totally normal and capable of doing pretty much anything they could do sober.
2. No one can tell me if I was raped…? Why not?
1. Personally I don’t consider that incoherent but you’d have better luck asking an ethicist about the the nuances in that situation. In any case, I really don’t think it worthhile to spend so much time on those nuances when the bigger picture, recognition of date rape as rape, is still something being fought over.
2. Because no one can decide or tell you what type of sex you enjoy and what sexual activity you’re comfortable with. Whether it’s being woken up in the morning by oral or penetrative sex or getting really drunk before jumping on your partner for the night.
1. Incoherent probably wasnt the right word, I agree. Blacked out is what I meant. I realize what the big picture is and I absolutely agree with it. The reason I am wanting to discuss the nuances is because its of personal relevance to me. I understand if they don’t matter to you, you don’t have to discuss it any further with me.
2. But I don’t think rape is about “what kind of sex you enjoy,” its about consent, no? I feel like I outlined my experience pretty well in my OP, if rape is so black and white, I don’t understand why no one can tell me whether or not it was rape.
3. (from your previous reply.) Is it really so tricky? I have a lot of sympathy for someone who punches someone in the face because they sincerely thought they were being threatened. I can identify with that and would no doubt do the same thing in their shoes. Someone who punches someone in the face because they want to? Not so much.
1. It’s that I don’t think they’re worthwhile questions, just that I’m not nearly educated enough to really be much help.
2. Consent isn’t something I can say you gave. I also can’t tell you if you were too drunk to go out and have fun. I know what I’m willing to do drunk and who I’m comfortable doing those things with. The situation, I’m sure, is different for you.
3. Then you’d be guilty of seriously injuring someone. Sympathy can’t change that.
1. Fair enough.
2. I’m not really sure what our differences in what we like to do for fun have to do with anything.
3. I think it changes the degree to which one is guilty of a crime. Accusing someone of rape is serious. I don’t think it’s unreasonable to recognize that an honest misunderstanding can occur when someone is too drunk to give meaningful consent but appears perfectly coherent and initiates sex with someone who may be pretty damn drunk themselves. (Please don’t confuse that with me saying that intention/interpretation somehow minimizes the pain one might suffer from this kind of circumstance.)
I guess I’ll emerge from my periodic lurking to reply to you, killjoy. I’ll expand on what julian francisco said; where people are intoxicated and can’t make decisions of consent it’s based on the type of sexual contact. If you want an answer about whether it was rape, a shorthand way of explaining it would be whether you’d describe it as one party acting upon the other. Basically, were you able to agree to someone doing sexual things to you, and did you in fact agree? It’s somewhat difficult to see exactly what happened from your comments, but you say “I’ve also been told I get very sexually aggressive at times that was very inebriated (i.e. meaning I initiated sex.)” and “The person I was having sex with was also very drunk.” If I’m understanding you correctly, you seem to be describing yourself as having raped someone in that instance.
Huh… Well that’s an interesting interpretation. So I, the person who was blacked out and doesn’t remember anything, raped a person who was drunk, but did remember it? How about the fact that the person I had sex with didn’t mind one bit and would happily repeat the act sober? Julian also describes having sex with his wife while too drunk to remember/consent; but doesn’t consider it a rape because he liked it (I think that’s what he was getting at when he was saying “no one can tell you you’ve been raped.”) So is rape contingent upon how the person feels about it the next day? Or are their rapes that turn out to be okay because people like it…? (I can’t imagine that latter notion going over too well, I swear I’m not trying to be a smart ass)
Killjoy, rape isn’t dependent on whether a person feels sufficiently bad about what happened to them or not and is weeping and gnashing their teeth, it’s just about whether they consented. And whether you raped someone doesn’t depend on whether you were drunk, or doing something on purpose, or whatever. It depends on: were you doing something to them that they didn’t consent to. You seem to be describing a case in which you did, but really they’re the one who knows whether they consented or not. If you never actually got clear consent, you can’t tell whether you raped them or not. All of the clear indicators would be before the fact, while they were not intoxicated. Other people are describing communication of consent before getting intoxicated and that it takes quite a bit of knowledge so that it’s very clear when someone consents (before the fact) to sex while impaired. And if they’re wrong about the consent, they still have raped someone. The only real indication you would have after the fact is a bad reaction or someone simply saying that you had raped them, and the lack of a bad reaction doesn’t come close to ruling it out.
I’m saying, even if you were black out drunk, if the person did not consent to what you did, you raped them. All of these ifs ands and buts are completely irrelevant. Whether you did or not just hinges on their consent to what you did- not whether they’re sad about it, not whether you were drunk; that’s your answer.
Is it not possible that both sides were totally incoherent yet still able to carry out the act? I think it is.
We must have very different understandings of the phrase “totally incoherent.” But even so. If you commit a crime while totally incoherent, your victim does not become complicit for also being totally incoherent. It does not cancel out. If you drive drunk and hit an equally drunk pedestrian, you’re the one at fault. If you drunkenly insert anything into any orifice of someone else who is equally drunk, you’re still the one at fault.
This is a fantastic argument for NOT getting black out drunk! Then you don’t have to worry about incoherently raping someone in a drunken stupor.
Yes. Because there are different kinds of rape. A 14-year-old can appear to give consent, but it’s still statutory rape if you’re an adult. This would also be considered statutory rape (i.e., rape as defined by statute) even if there was the appearance of consent.
Statutory rape is a good example. Despite these being the ages when people first begin to explore their sexuality, as adults we’re expected to keep in mind their mental state, their ignorance and the potential ramifications because we’re the ones in a position to evaluate them.
That’s not to say there aren’t very mature 14 year olds out there who understand sex and themselves better than 18 year olds (or 20 whatevers) just that, as a rule, don’t fuck 14 year old kids.
((also, what’s the code for quoting here?))
Of course. But I meant among adults.
As I said, yes. If a state’s laws say that a drunk person is unable to consent, then it is statutory rape.
The line of consent is drawn differently amongst different states. There is no federal statute defining consent (although the FBI does have one) because of the overturning of parts of the Violence Against Women Act.
So is it possible for two people to rape each other?
Maybe? Read the statutes for your state if you’re so concerned.
Even if two people being shitfaced drunk makes it hard or impossible to determine consent issues, that doesn’t matter unless someone presses charges. Let the courts sort it out.
Bottom line: if someone is drunk, don’t fuck them. I don’t get why this is such a hard concept. Use your judgment. If you’re too stupid to do that, then just stop fucking people all together.
“Even if two people being shitfaced drunk makes it hard or impossible to determine consent issues, that doesn’t matter unless someone presses charges. Let the courts sort it out.”
Well, it does matter because it’s something that’s confused me for a long while. I’m not trying to argue the “bottom line” here, I’m just trying to make sense of my personal experience.
You’re not trying to figure out your personal shit, your JAQing off. And besides, how the fuck do you expect anyone here to help you make sense of your personal experiences? We don’t know you and haven’t experienced your life. Talk to your friends or a licensed therapist or something if you want to make sense of your life.
What it appears as on here is you trying to poke holes in the argument that people cannot LEGALLY give their consent when they are drunk in many parts of the world. It’s like you’re trying to say “two people who are drunk cancel out each others’ consent!”
“You’re not trying to figure out your personal shit, your JAQing off.”
I’m really not.
“And besides, how the fuck do you expect anyone here to help you make sense of your personal experiences?”
By reading my OP and replying if they care to.
“We don’t know you and haven’t experienced your life. Talk to your friends or a licensed therapist or something if you want to make sense of your life.”
My life is just fine. It was these specific experiences that have bothered me and they seemed rather relevant to bring up here.
“What it appears as on here is you trying to poke holes in the argument that people cannot LEGALLY give their consent when they are drunk in many parts of the world. It’s like you’re trying to say “two people who are drunk cancel out each others’ consent!” ”
If that’s how it appears, then I apologize, I’m not trying to say that at all. I’m not really trying to “say” anything, I’m trying to understand.
Yes you may have created a gray area into which you may have drawn people unknowingly, which is actually bad behavior on your part.
People who drink then do things they later don’t remember or can’t account for other than laying there quietly drooling have a problem they need to address. Sounds like you have a problem.
If you really do get drunk in this manner I would recommend you stop drinking! Seriously!
If this was a reoccurring habit, I’d certainly agree with you. But they were isolated incidents from a few years back.
Good to hear!
It maybe the law but many, many cops don’t enforce it this way. Heard way too many stories (even in recent years) of cops pushing victims to not report if the cop thinks they were drunk or if they were dressed “slutty”
Amusingly, there are trolls attempting to get through who are accusing me of lying about Ed Clint’s words, despite the fact that there’s a screenshot right there (click to see the full thing):
lol it’s like when a kid puts their fingers in their ears and screams LALALALALALALA!!
According to some anonymous commenter at my place, this is you admitting you’re a rapist, Rebecca. Uh huh.
And I’m also guessing that like me, if you meet a sexy stranger who is drunk (and I’m going by the common definition here, of someone whose faculties are impaired, e.g., slurred speech, stumbling, etc.), you will not have sex with them, even if they say they’d like to. This isn’t because it’s the law but because it is the right thing to do.
I do think it’s the right thing to do but there are a number of women I know who do enjoy heavy drinking followed by hook ups. (I know a gay man who reports that he and several other gay men also enjoy it.) So it is perfectly possible to consume alcohol or drugs and enjoy sex.
Of course if you’re ever in a situation where you don’t know (I’ve heard of situations where someone accidently mixed alcohol with the medication they were taking and just suddenly came to during) it’s best to not continue. You lose nothing except maybe a few orgasms.
Also, even if you don’t see what you’re doing as rape or, for whatever reason, didn’t see the harm you ere doing, that doesn’t mean there was no rape and no victim. If I spin around and hit someone’s lip, even if I meant no harm, there is still someone with a broken lip.
first para is obviously, RW.
Does html not work on this site?
Thank you for your persistence on this issue…it’s difficult to relive painful memories but it is so important to keep challenging oppression and dangerous ideologies.
I must say that the worst part about becoming aware is that suddenly all the suspect incidences in my past that never sat well with me are put in an entirely different light. I now see them for the crimes they truly were…and I feel disgusted that I was the victim 1. in experiencing these crimes in the first place 2. being brainwashed into blaming myself or accepting it as “normal.” There can be no retribution now that so much time has passed and I had been “willing” or at least compliant in so many instances. How to accept and move on? Is it worth confronting people in my past? What about the people I will never see again?
I don’t know about anyone else… but I just don’t find “sloppy drunk” to be particularly sexy, and the most I’m willing to engage with a woman in that state is to try to corral them into bed so they can sleep it off, not so I can have sex with them. And for the sake of propriety, I tend to want to either hand them off to another woman or at least have one present to help me and deal with any potentially intimate stuff(helping them pee, get undressed). It is a little CYA, but it also lets the other person wake up knowing nothing happened rather than wondering if something did or not.
Then again, I’m not a predator. So when I see someone too drunk to make good decisions, my instinct is to help rather than take advantage.
I was witness to a rape years ago where one of my friends was so drunk (at a party at her own house surrounded by friends) she couldn’t stand up and this man that she didn’t know who was friends with her roommate showed up and was pressuring her to have sex. She was saying no over and over and I alerted my male friend…who thought he put a stop to it…but only a few minutes later we found out he’d taken her into a bathroom locked the door and was raping her. My friend pounded on the door and he came out disgusted at us for interrupting him…scowled…made flippant remarks, and we kicked him out. My friend never even remembered the incident–that’s how drunk she was. Her roommates defended the man and blamed her for being a drunk and a slut and even suggested an intervention. Though my male friend and I went to the police station with her to file a report, she eventually just let the case drop…and who could blame her given her rapist’s sense of entitlement, her roommates supporting him, and her roommates blaming her? That same girl was raped by another man only a month later who lured her back to his house when she was black out drunk again. It is the sad fact that most men do not recognize alcohol as a date rape drug…they go out to the bars looking for “easy” women (ie *impaired* women) with the intention of scoring. The entire bar culture, I think, is inherently problematic.
I’d say this happens most every night at bars. Sad.
I party a lot, and a female friend of mine pointed out how extremely prolific it is, and now I see this almost everytime I go out….
Back when I used to host parties, we used to go out of our way to prevent any “cornering” of drunk people in private spots. Doors had to stay open, and we kept an eye on people and let them know we were keeping an eye on them.
And I think men absolutely recognize what they’re doing, and just don’t really fucking care. Because I’ve been drunk and an asshole and inappropriate and some part of me always knew it… and the guys who take advantage are usually pretending to be more drunk than they are, as an “out”. You pour two drinks, half a shot for you and a shot and a half for her.
“Her roommates defended the man and blamed her for being a drunk and a slut and even suggested an intervention”
I find that the scariest and most sickening part of the incident.
Seems incidents like this reveal who one’s true allies are.
While I’m on the subject, just wanted to let you know Rebecca that I stumbled upon your work a month ago…I ended up sucked into your lectures all night and was just amazed that there was someone willing to take on the tough task of challenging sexism in rational circles (and everyone else for that matter). Please keep up the good work.
Well you see this a lot at bars. Dudes TRYING to get women drunk so that they’ll “loosen up” and go home with them. Every night. And those who are targeting drunk women on purpose.
—However, I want you to judge me here:—
I can’t say I’ve never had sex with a woman who’s been drinking. But it’s always been with someone I know, have had prior sexual chemistry with, and it’s always just been kind of situational where we were both at a drinking event (party, barcrawl, etc.). I’ve never used it for coercion, never have slept with someone who had been drinking if I was sober, and never have slept with a girl who’s drunk past her wits even if I was drinking and she wanted to have sex (because yeah, that’s NOT consent), and have never been the one to actually ask for it.
A lot of these continued into long-term or short-term relationships.
I’m married now so no more dating, but eh, how would you judge that in the past? I’m just being honest on my life history, and I want to know your honest opinion on it.
And then there’s the unfortunate reality that most teens and young adults are never really made aware of what consent really means. Kids are simply told “no means no”…but rarely is alcohol or any other impairing substance/situation explained. When I teach the subject in my university classes, my students are oftentimes hearing it for the first time.
“been drinking” =/= “drunk”
Rebecca never said that having sex with someone who’s been drinking is rape. She said that having sex with someone who is drunk is rape.
Of course it’s a fine line, and different people cross that line with different amounts of alcohol.
The Edmonton Police Service started a campaign a couple of years ago targeting the perpetrators instead of the victims in their Don’t Be That Guy campaign.
http://www.edmontonpolice.ca/CommunityPolicing/PersonalPropertyCrimes/SexualAssault/Dontbethatguy.aspx
Hello, I think you misunderstood one of my tweets. Drunk sex and drunk driving. I wrote it to show your reasoning (your tweet) was too simple. Being drunk and having sex (by the way, as well explained as you did in this post) does not mean a rape always. I’m not sure who is right or wrong, you, me or twitter because of its simpleness & briefness. What really dissapointed me was that you blocked me because I disagreed with you. I didn’t insult you. I just made two questions and a friendly adieu. Simply.
An skeptical person should -from my point of view- be more open-minded. If a tweeter insults you, block them. But if someone questions your thoughts in a polite way, why not answering same way? Or just reading? I understand you must have been insulted so many times, but girl, you should separate gist and dead wood.
Well, your tweets about rapes/being drunk and this post are opposed, a little contradictory. However, if you really still think “I may be a rapist” because of my tweet, you’re definitely wrong.
Well now silly pedant, that depends on the statute covering the jurisdiction that the sex happens in. Some statutes say that being drunk means you cannot consent, and having sex with someone with the inability to consent is always rape.
=((
Franchesca. It wasn’t your fault and you are not to blame.
This is from a reality television show. It’s self-explanatory. This is the what we’re up against. They don’t even make it to the fictional set-up before the real world makes the point for them.
I think the most important thing you said here is “don’t ask me if your specific situation is rape. Ask the one you’re fucking.” The fact that this needed to be said is really depressing, but it’s an apt quote.
The root of consent is communication. We have a responsibility to communicate with the people that we do sexual activities with. These responsibilities include (but are not limited to) determining if the person we’re communicating with is capable of consent at that time – such as knowing if they are drunk, underage, asleep, etc. When in doubt, DON’T FUCK THEM. If you’re that hard up for getting laid, perhaps it’s because you’re not responsibly communicating with potential sexual partners!
Yes, there are nuances and details to this conversation, but those nuances are not what Rebecca was talking about. The main thing is that the comfort and safety of my sexual partners is a lot more important than my orgasm. Don’t ask Rebecca, or me, or assholes like Ed Clint if you’re raping someone. Communicate with the person you are fucking.
This should be obvious. To people out there who have had sex with people who they are, in retrospect, not sure if they consented. That isn’t our problem, it’s theirs.
COTW
The responses to the subject matter that you’ve recieved are what really blow my mind.
Just what the fuck is the matter with those people?
What the fuck brings about such mentality? What shit did they get exposed to in life to make them think the way that they do?
Makes me sick.
Has Ed Clint ever acted insulted by the idea of being thought of as a *potential* rapist? I guess he won’t be having that problem any more.
I live in Northern Ontario, where heavy drinking is almost universal and a seeming total inability to communicate because feelings are hard and most people are stuffy English Ontarian is even more universal.
You’re saying almost all sex that happened anywhere near the previous university I attended was rape.
Sounds about right. The city had extremely common self-harm and cutting problems too. Also some stranger raped and attempted to kill me while I lived there, so I’m not feeling any overwhelming desire to circle the wagons and defend the poor poor menfolk.
I would ask: “If you, [random guy], are drunk to the point of inability to consent, and I ask you for $100, but you do not give nor deny consent, I’m OK to take it from your wallet, right?”
This stuff is NOT rocket science to research if one actually cares. Here’s an example from the University of New Hampshire’s SHARPP. They’re considered by many to be the model such program in the country:
Source: http://www.unh.edu/sharpp/consent
I would like to say that I agree entirely with the substance of what I think Rebecca Watson is conveying. Intoxicated people can’t consent, and this is not remotely controversial. When any ambiguity is present at all, one should always err on the side of caution.
I believe the screengrab mischaracterizes me, however (and no post has been deleted, it was made private so that my friends could discuss the topic frankly without being featured on a blog, a reasonable request, I think). My reply to Jon was sarcastic, not serious. My objection was that the tweet was unduly ambiguous regarding specific contexts. My remarks about my past refer to instances of sex where alcohol was consumed, but only, and I mean only, within the confines of a trusting long-term relationship based on mutual respect and understanding in which occasional drunken sex was well-established as normal, expected, and mutually desired. I’ve also never (and would never) engage in relations with anyone so drunk as to be incapacitated/vomiting and the like. My SO has and will confirm positively at no time was her consent ever violated in any way. I hope this helps clarify my position.
Also, I hope this discussion of consent brings much needed attention a serious problem in which the wishes of others are far too-often not respected, with deplorable results. As a society, we can do much better. These are discussions we need to be having.
LOL!
Of course you totes agree with her now!!! You were only calling out the ambiguity of her statement!! You weren’t passing judgment about her character at all!!!
Except that in the screenshot of your facebook conversation, you said:
and
and
Yes, of course you agree with her and you’re only criticizing the ambiguity of her statement.
BTW, how the fuck can a screengrab of *an entire conversation* mischaracterize you? It’s your words, in context.
You’re a piece of work.
The discussion continued, and though I think the ambiguity is an issue, that we don’t disagree on the substance (which is why I used that word). I did write more harshly than necessary, point taken Will. Also, the post after the tweet has lead me to believe Watson is more on my wavelength re: consent than I had initially thought, which I’m glad to see.
You failed to comment on my remark about implicit consent, where I describe “The reason it was great is that I had a relationship based on trust and respect. It had a mature depth and richness that precluded either of us acting like fucking infants or lawyers with each other. She knew my boundaries and respected them, she knew she didn’t have to ask in that particular situation. It was a wonderful thing.”
You aren’t privy to the rest, but a few replies down I also said, ” For the record, I have never had sex with anyone without their consent. I merely reject a definition of “consent” which makes no room for context or implicit consent.”
I thank some of the other commenters there for their insights, and suggesting, I think correctly, that we’re more in agreement than not as my above quotes illustrate.
If we’re not in agreement on the substance of the topic of consent, please let me know how. I see no profit in personal bickering, though, so please confine replies to the subject matter.
Okay, so now you agree with the substance of Rebecca’s tweet. You have “evolved” on this topic and come to decide that, contrary to your previous posts on FB, that having sex with people who are unable to consent (however that is defined by the law, including “intoxicated” in many jurisdictions) is rape. Good.
Now go to Twitter and FB, post an apology to Rebecca for being “too harsh” as you put it, announce that you essentially agree with the substance of her tweet.
I find it quite hypocritical of you to come on here and demand that I withhold “personal bickering” after that’s exactly what you did to Rebecca. What you posted was not about the substance, it was driven by your dislike for her, otherwise you would not have said the things you said.
And I don’t really care what you posted after you made the thread private. Either make it public or stop talking about it because I have no reason to believe you given what you said before the thread was made private.
Looking forward to your public apology on Twitter! I won’t hold my breath.
For the record, I have never had sex with anyone without their consent. I merely reject a definition of “consent” which makes no room for context or implicit consent.”
That isn’t actually up to you. But you know, whatever helps you sleep at night.
I see no profit in personal bickering, though, so please confine replies to the subject matter.
Shorter Ed: I want to control this conversation and avoid anything that might embarrass me further.
Ed, you made a disgusting comment that has led you to making a statement about how you have never raped anybody.
Do you see how messed up that is?
Get some fucking perspective. Regardless of how you feel toward Rebecca, have some empathy for the many people who *have* been raped while intoxicated, and how they might feel about the fact that you saw fit to joke about it.
Many rapists are never reported and never see jail time. What you originally said, “I am a rapist many times over”, would be an accurate statement coming from an actual rapist, who DOES prey on people who are unable to give consent.
In “Philadelphia Story,” James Stewart’s character explains to a hung over Katharine Hepburn, who had been seriously flirting with him the night before: “You were a little worse the wear for alcohol, and there are rules about these things.” The film came out 72 years ago.
+1!
+2
I see your “Philadelphia Story” and raise you “Roman Holiday.”
Both great movies and both make clear that something is rotten in the state of, well, everywhere, because we have to keep having this conversation. Yikes!
You know, I’m right with Improbable Joe up there, and personally I would go further.
I can’t remember a time EVER where sex was satisfactory with heavy drinking by either party. Honestly. I do not see the point. It just does not work well.
Sigh. It’s sad that we have to argue the particulars. The reason I posted the campaign in my above comment is that it finally puts the onus on the perpetrator and not the victim. And no consent = sexual assault. No ifs and or buts. It is never the victim’s fault.
If one feels that they were or weren’t raped that’s also up to them. I understand the wanting to normalize what happens in a sexual situation that you may have not consented to. I have questioned one situation and realized in that case, yes I was assaulted. I’m not angry about it. I just think the more young women and young men know the less sexual assault will happen. And by sharing stories of what happen can help prevent it from happening to others.