Dawkins Overflow Thread

Are you kidding me? This is ludicrous, so let’s talk about the specific points you’re wrong about.

(1) “Don’t take this the wrong way” apparently doesn’t mean what I think it means.
Everything is context dependent. RW had just finished talking about how objectifying people isn’t OK, and said she’d enjoyed the discussions but was tired and going to bed. Following her to an elevator alone to proposition her after that ignored her wishes, so it’s wrong regardless of the word choice.

(2) A foreign country makes everything scarier. A hotel in Ireland might as well be an opium den in Marrakesh–after all, they are FOREIGN COUNTRIES! Foreign countries have different laws, rules and customs than the US as well as different social mores – some of those differences could be harmful if you’re not aware of them. Also, being in a foreign country means that any support system is probably not as available (cell phone service not transferring, different time zones), and the people you usually see at US conferences aren’t as likely to be there, so you feel more isolated and less comfortable.

(3) Trying to change a woman’s mind when she has already declared her intentions is disrespectful and misogynistic. Example: If a woman says she’ll have the steak, and a man says, “The steak at this place isn’t as good as the pork chops,” then the man is a TOTAL BASTARD. Wow, you are a misogynist, aren’t you. There is no comparison between sex or a date and an order in a restaurant unless you are deliberately comparing a woman to a piece of meat – also misogynistic.

(4) Suspecting that a woman might not be a good critical thinker (just because she is a woman) is misogyny of the highest order. However, suspecting that a man might be a rapist (just because he is a man) is not misandry in the slightest.
What? Suspecting a man who deliberately ignores a wish to not be objectified, who follows you out of a bar and onto an elevator alone, and who again ignores your desire to just go to bed because you are tired to corner and proposition you is rational in my opinion. But RW never said that EG was even a potential rapist, and those of us who have said we would look at him that way felt that EG ignoring specific requests and cornering someone in the way that he did RW increased the chances that he might be a rapist.

(5) Fear of being alone in an elevator with a black person is racism. Fear of being alone in an elevator with a gay person is homophobia. Fear of being alone in an elevator with a Border Collie means you should really learn to like dogs more. HOWEVER, fear of being alone in an elevator with a male is normal, healthy, and savvy, and not sexism at all. See above response; deliberately following someone into an elevator to proposition them is not the same as simply being in the same elevator.

(6) Arguments such as: “You can’t possibly understand why you are wrong because you are privileged / male / not a sexual assault survivor” are no longer considered ad hominems. This isn’t even worth my time.

(7) 6 in 6 women can’t cite any sources for their statistics, especially sources that actually refer to sexual assault by complete strangers versus the MUCH more common sexual assault by dating partners/ acquaintances/ authority figures, etc. http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php is a start on your request for stats including some from the US CDC. As for acquaintance vs. stranger, EG would be considered an acquaintance for most purposes – at the same conference, in the same conversation, at the same bar. True stranger rape = random person you’ve never seen or spoken with before corners you or breaks into your home etc.

(8) ANY disagreement–especially disagreement that makes light of the situation–is not a learning opportunity, nor is it fertile ground for constructive conversation that leads to better understanding for all involved. No sir. Instead, disagreement means that one side is full of misogynistic, rape-apologizing, patriarchal cavemen who deserve to be insulted, boycotted, and shunned. ‘Cause they are the PAST, baby, and we’re the future! Actually, if this is supposed to be funny, your sense of humor is way off base. Too many people here have talked about being groped, sexually assaulted, and raped for this to be remotely acceptable. See this: http://www.menspeakup.org/why-rape-jokes-are-never-ok for one of the reasons why.

(9) Don’t hit on women in elevators. No matter how awesome Aerosmith made it seem in that video.

Am I really not allowed to respectfully disagree while at the same time being a feminist? Seriously?

Oh, yep, you’re respectfully disagreeing here. Absolutely.

I have no idea why you would think that it’s feminist to behave this way. Not just RW, but a ton of women have brought up really important points in this discussion, and people like you keep dismissing them with false equivalents and specious logic. And the men wonder why women get so frustrated and sometimes frightened when our stated wishes are ignored.