- Women say rape victims should take blame – “More than half of those of both sexes questioned said there were some circumstances when a rape victim should accept responsibility for an attack.” From lots of people.
- Dr. Laurys admits Facilitated Communication failure – New development in the case of Rom Houben, the man who has been in a coma for 23 years and Dr. Laurys had claimed was now able to communicate through a facilitator. From Jes3ica.
- Learn sex ed by fighting the evil penis-handed Sperminator – This is the weirdest educational game ever. From Lisa.
- Is there a PMS gene? – “Between 20 and 30 percent of women carry a variation of this gene, called “brain-derived neurotropic factor Met,” which past research has shown is a risk factor for mood disorders.” From ZenMonkey.
I can think of contrived situations where I’d say a victim should accept responsibility for being raped. I won’t mention them, cause they’ll look like attempts at humour, which has no place in commenting on this survey.
If the survey was an open question with “are there any situations” and/or “partly responsible” I’d sort of be able to accept the responses, although I’d disagree. Looking at the actual questions and reponses just horrifies me.
The situations in this survey, getting into bed with someone (71% of women thought victim was to blame), and coming upstairs for a drink (one third of women though victim was to blame) are absolutely in no way a get-out-of-jail card for someone who doesn’t accept a no as a no.
The parallell article on victims’ responses to the survey results is interesting, if sad, reading:
Rape victims respond to survey on ‘blame’ for rape
Oh, and I beat the Sperminator. Didn’t get a single question wrong!
@Bjornar:
There is no situation where a victim should accept responsibility for being raped.
PERIOD.
And your link doesn’t work.
I wonder if there isn’t a defense mechanism at work here. If women believe that the victim bears some responsibility it’s easier to say, “well, I would never do that, so rape can’t happen to me.” Admitting that rape is not an act of sex- it’s an act of violence targeted against women- can be frightening because it means it could happen to anyone, not just women who are “asking for it” with their clothes or actions.
I can’t imagine what it’s like to live and cope with the terror rape victims often feel after an attack. To somehow blame them is inexcusable and sickens me.
From the response article: “Sadly, the main reason my marriage ended was because my then wife couldn’t take any responsibility for her attack.” I can’t wipe the look of disgust off of my face. I feel dirty for even reading this.
@marilove:
A question: if I leave my brand new Ferrari parked in a known high-crime part of town, with the doors unlocked and the keys in the ignition, would you say I’m partly responsible for it being stolen?
(key word – “partly”)
@Zoltan: YAY! Comparing the RAPE OF A PRESON to stealing a car!
I was waiting for it, and it only took five fucking comments.
A RAPE VICTM IS NEVER FUCKING RESPONSIBLE FOR BEING RAPED. PERIOD. A CAR IS NOT A PERSON. MEN ARE ABLE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR OWN ACTIONS AND NOT FUCKING RAPE.
If a man sees a women who is vulnerable, that man shouldn’t rape.
If am an can’t control his fucking actions and not rape, IT IS NOT THE VICTIM’S FUCKING FAULT. Not partly. Not even a little. She did nothing wrong. The RAPIST raped.
@Displaced Northerner:
I think this is a big reason. Not the only reason, but a big one.
It’s *sick* how many men feel this way when their wives, girlfriends, or friends are raped.
An acquaintance of mine was recently raped. She was drunk, and the guy she was hanging out with that night (not her boyfriend, who had other plans) kept feeding her drink after drink. She trusted him.
He took advantage of her. And raped her.
Then when she confided in her boyfriend, he asked her: “Well, did you flirt with him? Why were you drinking with him?” Please note that she knew the rapist fairly well, so it wasn’t like he was even a stranger. And yet, he took advantage of her, because she was vulnerable. And her boyfriend put the blame right on her, even though she was raped. He made it out like she cheated on him, because she was raped. Disgusting, but not at all uncommon.
Another friend of mine gave a drunk guy she knew a bit (not well, but they had hung out before) a ride home. And he raped her.
But people like Zoltan will put the blame, even “partly” on the woman.
I guess these women should have just locked themselves up, huh? Not left the house? No drinking with a guy you know! He might rape you! And it’ll be your fault because you left your house and *gasp* drank with him! And of course, her boyfriend blamed her! Because she gave a guy she knew a ride home, it was her fault for being raped. Instead of being sympathetic, he got mad.
No being nice and giving a guy you know a ride home! It’ll be YOUR fault, because you were alone with a man! Tsk tsk, women! You should lock yourselves up, for fear you might get raped!
How ‘bout we turn it around and say the man should not take advantage of a vulnerable person?
@Zoltan:
I think theft and violence are different types of crimes which we should not analogize. And leaving a tempting trap for a potential thief is a completely different act than participating in normal interpersonal social relationships with the expectation that violence should not be the result.
@Zoltan: I would say that wasn’t smart (though not to you right after you had done it because that would be mean). But I wouldn’t say it was your fault or that you were to blame. In fact, I’d probably tell you that this guy would have found a way to steal your car anyway. But that’s just how I roll.
Listen, I practice safety in numbers like nobody’s business. I don’t walk alone at night; I hold a key between my fingers so a landed punch would slice an attacker; I turn and face someone who is following suspiciously close behind me. But even with all of that, I could still be raped- and my attack wouldn’t be any worse than the girl walking drunk and alone.
I wonder, when a guy gets murdered in a dodgy neighborhood, is he partly to blame?
@Displaced Northerner: That’s a good point, and I honestly hope that’s at least part of the reason so many women responded the way they did to this. It sickens me as well that there’s still so much work to do to break down this horrible myth.
Nothing anyone does, ever, is a justification for someone else hurting them. Ever, under any circumstances. Refer to this if necessary: http://www.feministing.com/archives/004756.html
Seriously, folks, comparing stealing a car to raping a person is disgusting. I’m tired of it happening whenever the discussion of rape comes up. It happens EVERY time.
STOP. IT.
@Jen: Thanks for that link! I was looking for that, but was too pissed to find it.
@Jen: Great link. It should be required reading in health ed in high school and then again at college orientation. I especially like this one, “If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and it’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.”
Perhaps the problem is the definition of “Partially responsible” in the survey. Saying that something could have been avoided is different from assigning responsibility for what did happen.
To use the argument from comments, if you leave you car doors unlocked and put a key in the visor, that doesn’t make it any more legally or ethically OK for someone to steal that car.
On the other hand it is certainly true that you can reasonably take steps to reduce the risk of being a crime victim in the case of auto theft and sexual assault. A big difference in that comparison is that some people think a reasonable step is to not go out in public, get married at 12, or cover one’s ankles at all times.
Anyway, assuming that it’s reasonable to say that getting drunk and going home alone with a stranger is something one might reasonably avoid to reduce the risk of rape, does saying so mean I’m assigning blame or responsibility?
Did the survey make this distinction?
(NOTE: I see that the conversation has gotten past me while I was writing this:P)
While the car example is a bit insensitive, the murder analogy was also brought up. A guy who gets murdered in a bad neighborhood is only partly responsible in that there were reasonable steps he could have taken to reduce the risk. This is not to say that he is mostly or even significantly responsible (as compared to the murderer), and it shouldn’t reduce the sympathy for him or his family.
In any dangerous situation you are responsible for taking reasonable measures to minimize risk. Rape is extremely damaging and affects people on a deep emotional level, so I can see where “hey, here’s some things that can be done to help you not get raped” turns into “RAPE IS YOUR FAULT”, but I don’t think that’s what people in this thread are saying. I think as skeptics, we tend to be realists, and we realize that just like how murderers will always exist, so will rapists (no matter how much we educate men, no matter how much we reduce the occurance of rape). This means that, while the onus is on men not to rape, there always needs to be some protective measures taken by women.
The survey on the other hand… eek.
I knew I was going to take heat for my comment. But, I think it’s important to ask.
But people like Zoltan will put the blame, even “partly†on the woman.
Marilove, this is clearly an emotional topic for you (and with good reason). I’m not trying to bait you, I’m just asking. I never “partly” blamed the woman, I just asked, but you were ready to attack me anyway. I suspect you’re not going to be happy with any analogy anyone makes because you clearly feel that being raped is without analogy.
Displaced Northerner’s comment was that leaving the car in such a situation is a poor choice. And that was my point. Are *all* rape victims guilty of making poor choices? Of course not. Probably not even most. But some? Quite possibly.
Yes, there’s no reason for any person to rape another. But ya know what? It happens (as does murder, theft, and a lot of other douchebaggery) and that it happens can’t be ignored. Not taking precautions to protect yourself is a poor choice. And dropping yourself into situations that increase your odds of physical harm is an even worse choice.
A young, slight woman chooses to go alone to a bar known to be frequented by a “rough element”, and once at that bar she proceeds to get herself really drunk. It’s a really poor choice, and she’s just increased her chances of being raped, over (for example) going out with a group of friends to a bar with a better clientele, drinking moderately and arranging for safe transport home.
I guess these women should have just locked themselves up, huh? – Marilove
I had a mental picture of women in burqa when I read that. I agree with everything you’ve said.
Wow, I didn’t realise though that we still have a long way to go on this front.
@Zoltan: Claiming that it is an emotional topic is just saying “well you are a woman you are too emotional to respond rationally”.
Sorry try again.
@Zoltan:
You just essentially said that women can be “partly responsible” for being raped.
You are saying: “The rapist is partially not responsible for raping.”
Or,
“Well, she was alone in that bar, drunk, so of course she’s partially responsible for you raping her!
You are essentially taking part of the blame OFF the rapist and putting in ON the victim.
This is wrong.
Always.
It is not the fault of the victim.
It is ALWAYS the fault of the rapist.
A victim is NEVER “partially” responsible for being raped; a rapist is ALWAYS 100% at fault for raping.
And that young slight women would not be “partially” responsible for getting raped at that “questionable” bar. The rapist would still be 100% at fault.
And further more, she could just as easily be raped at the “better” bar! She is not any less likely to get raped at a “better” bar than she is at a “questionable” bar.
Rapists exist in nice bars too!
The friends I mentioned above? Were in decent bars WITH FRIENDS. THEIR RAPISTS WERE THEIR FRIENDS. AND THEY WERE STLL RAPED
So should we take it further?
Since they were raped after drinking in “nice†bars, and were raped by men they trusted, because they were drunk or otherwise vulnerable (alone in a car with the rapist whom she trusted, for instance), should the next step be, don’t go out at all? Don’t go out and get drunk? Since if you do, you might put yourself in danger? If you go out and get drunk and someone you thought you could trust rapes you because you were vulnerable, is it partly your fault, since you put yourself in a vulnerable spot by either drinking, or being alone with someone you *thought* you could trust, but who turned out to be a rapist?
WHERE DOES IT FUCKING END?
@loudlyquiet: Yep, I read it as: “If I victim blame, and a woman gets upset, then it’s because it’s an emotional topic, and of course she’s getting emotional, because she’s a woman! It can’t be because I’m being a victim-blaming rape apologist! She’s just emotional!”
@Izzy:
And women in burqas STILL get raped. And then acid thrown on their faces after they are raped.
@Zoltan:
No. No one has the right to take your car without your permission. Whoever stole your car should be punished as much as any other car thief should be.
Geez, I didn’t think there were any smart people left who could even argue that rape is ever the fault of the victim.
A man’s penis doesn’t just fall into stuff. He has to intend it to go somewhere. Sure, he can be forced into it (men can be raped, after all), but if the woman is forced into it, it’s still rape to her too.
If anyone says no and someone else keeps doing stuff, it’s rape and not the victims fault. It doesn’t matter what happened up to that point.
That’s not to say that it’s smart to put yourself at risk, but taking a risk doesn’t equal inviting rape and thereby having responsibility for it.
Logically speaking, the only way a victim would be to blame is if he/she specifically and in all ways clearly requested the rape, in which case it is not rape because consent was given, therefore there’s no way a victim can be to blame.
Haven’t any of you stopped to think that part of the problem is that we concentrate too much on what women should (notice the word “shouldâ€) do to stop being raped, and not enough on what we can do to prevent rape?
Whenever these discussions come up, we never talk about why men rape — it instantly turns to how women can keep themselves safe. And by “we†I mean everyone, everywhere, not just here.
And it really doesn’t matter what women do – they are still raped. Why? Because talking about what women should do to stop being raped does not address the problem. It puts the problem right back on the victims, and ignores the rapists completely.
Why can’t we start concentrating on why men rape? Why can’t we start concentrating on how to teach men not to rape? Why can’t we start concentrating on what the reasons are for why men rape, and why rape is so prevalent?
One of those reasons is victim blaming. By saying “a women is partially responsible for being raped in , you are taking part of the blame OFF the rapist, giving them an out. You are telling them that it’s okay they raped, because the woman could have done more to stop the rapist from raping them. Rapists use this kind of rationalization ALL THE FUCKING TIME. This is the *exact same shit* they say to defend their actions. “She was drunk and passed out, she was asking for it!†“She was wearing a miniskirt while walking down a dark alley, she was asking for it!â€
By saying the victim is partially responsible, you are using the exact same rationalizations that the rapist uses for himself and his actions. You are confirming his rationalizations. You are telling him that it was okay that he raped her, because it is partially her fault for being vulnerable.
Responsible and responsibility are the important words here. Sure, there’s stuff I can do to make myself safer (MAYBE), but that doesn’t mean I’m responsible for being raped, even if I go to a questionable bar alone and get drunk. The responsibility is still, and always will be, on the rapist.
And I can still do everything in my power to try to stay safe, and still be raped.
@kimberlychapman: “That’s not to say that it’s smart to put yourself at risk, but taking a risk doesn’t equal inviting rape and thereby having responsibility for it.”
As Marilove points out though, with her examples of women and people they trusted, how does one assess risk? At what point is something considered “putting yourself” at risk?
I think that’s the issue between Zoltan and Marilove’s comments: Zoltan seems to be saying that there are situations that are riskier than others, Marilove seems to be saying that there is inherent risk as long as men don’t shoulder the responsibility for not raping under any circumstance. Some women evaluate their risk very carefully and get raped anyway.
@Displaced Northerner:
You are absolutely right about blaming the victim as a defense mechanism.
When I was in college, on classmate raped another one. They knew each other beforehand, and they went to a bar together, with at least a dozen other people. It was because of this that I learned that “date rape” is far, far more common than stranger rape.
To my astonishment, some people defended the rapist, because he had had way too much to drink. Some of his defenders were women, and one of them even lied to help him get away with it. What I realized is that it’s really, really comforting to think that the only rapists are creepy guys who lurk in dark alleys and behind bushes. Nobody wants to think that their own friend of classmate is a rapist. Nobody wants to think that that person could have done the same thing to them. The guy who did it was a little sleazy, but still easily in the range of average. And it’s really frightening to think that any average person you know could commit such a crime, especially against their own friends.
@ Marilove
And women in burqas STILL get raped. And then acid thrown on their faces after they are raped.
Indeed.
@Zoltan
I understand that your pushing the argument that rape is preventable. The problem is, unless we castrate everyone, it’s not! Women get raped in their homes all the time and, as Marilove pointed out, they get raped by people they know and trust as well too. There is no fool proof way to prevent rape. This attitude only promotes fear and we can’t have that, not in the world we live today! Women should be able to live, to quote Sex and the City, fun and fearless lives! And men too… let’s not forget men are also victim of rape.
@Kimbo Jones:
Exactly.
@Zoltan:
O REALLY?
There you are! Partly blaming the victim! JFC.
Stop victim blaming.
The victim is NEVER even partly responsible for being raped.
The rapist who did the actual fucking raping is responsible for fucking raping.
How is this such a fucking difficult concept for people — not just men, clearly — to grasp?
Is ‘slippery slope’ the right term for the level of histrionics in this thread? I may not agree 100% with Zoltan, but he didn’t say hardly any of what you are attributing to him. Acknowledging the existence of certain types of crime and the factors that one has a reasonable* amount of control over in preventing that crime should not be so violently opposed.
Do we tell young women that rape shouldn’t happen, therefore they can do whatever they like all the time, or do we tell them that the threat of rape is real and there are contributing factors that they can control? I know what I would do if I had a daughter. I also know what I would do if I had a child of either gender and I lived in a rough neigborhood.
I guess I’m thinking more in the preventative sense than in the punitive sense, though. Clearly in any case of rape, the victim should not be punished and the punishment for the rapist should not be lessened no matter what the circumstance.
Can we tone down the rhetoric and actually debate the points people ARE making?
*this is a word that has been ignored by all the reactionaries in this thread. Marilove, I think both of your friends took reasonable precautions (as described) and what happened to them was terrible. We do not mean staying at home all the time or wearing a burka.
Anyone seen those adverts on the London underground about getting into illegal taxis? They always freak me out because it feels like it’s suggesting that’s what you can expect if you don’t use ‘Cabwise’.
http://www.londonnet.co.uk/news/2009/dec/know-what-youre-getting-new-years-eve.html
Of course everyone should try and use some common sense to lower the risk of getting into dangerous situations but a crime is a crime – the victim isn’t to blame.
@Izzy: As a woman who was raped by her own boyfriend, on more than one occasion, I can attest to this.
Clearly he was a rapist and an asshole, but I didn’t realize this for well over a year.
Then he drugged me.
And raped me.
On more than one occasion.
But heeeey, I should have done more to prevent it, huh? I shouldn’t trust my own boyfriend. I should lock myself up forever, and avoid all contact with men, because I might be raped, even by my own boyfriend!
Again, where the fuck does this shit end?
ETA: This was many years ago. Almost a decade. I am well over it, and in the end it taught me quite a lot (and I’m perhaps TOO thick-skinned now, with too many walls, but I digress).
But I’ve had more than one person put the blame on ME. They have told me I should have known. They have told me, even though I was clearly abused and showing signs of being abused (I was in denial for a long, long time, and he was an excellent manipulator, not to mention the fact that I was relying on him for about a year for food and shelter), that I should have left him. Why did I stay? Why did I let him abuse me again and again? I have literally, point blank, been told that it was my fault, because I didn’t do enough to prevent it.
These people who put the blame on me never, ever, ever say: “He shouldn’t have raped you.” They discuss and question what I did and what I should have done, but they never discuss or question his actions.
Telling.
@mikerattlesnake: I think what Marilove is pointing out, among other things, is that we should also be telling young men that rape shouldn’t happen to treat the problem rather than only the symptom.
@marilove: Yes. Exactly. And (to use another example) how does a 7 year old girl, reduce her risk of being attacked by creepy Uncle Bob? She can’t. That’s why we need to make all of the Uncle Bob’s in the world (of course just one example) that it’s NOT OKAY.
@mikerattlesnake:
Ok, I need to stop this. I need to stop this “if you are in a questionable bar” or “in a rough neighborhood” bullshit.
You can get raped in a nice neighborhood.
You can get raped in a nice bar.
Nearly every women I know who has been raped has been raped by someone they know, or in a