Honestly, I’m extremely bored with the god/no god debate. I don’t care. Really, I don’t care. Believe whatever you want about god(s)(ess)(es). It doesn’t matter. Sure, I think it’s all a bit silly, and I don’t buy into it, but I know plenty of really smart people who do. And I know a few really smart skeptics who do… a couple who are even *gasp* Christians!
Unless you’re using your religion to spread evil – like killing your daughter for talking to the guy you didn’t choose as her husband or trying to pass blatantly bigoted laws denying groups of people their basic rights, or trying to teach my kid that dinosaurs were here just a few thousand years ago and that The Flintstones are based on a true story – really, just thinking that there might be a deity isn’t an intellectual crime in my mind.
Religion isn’t above scrutiny, but I don’t think it’s necessary to mock the religious and spew hatred at them for merely believing.
Michael Shermer just wrote a whiny article on not beating up the believers, but I really loved Brian Thompson’s article over at Amateur Scientist, and highly recommend you read it after answering today’s quest
What’s your take on the atheists vs religious “war”? Do you think we should be more tolerant? Do you think we should be less tolerant? Does it matter?
The Afternoon Inquisition (or AI) is a question posed to you, the Skepchick community. Look for it to appear daily at 3pm ET.
Jihaaaaaaad!!!
Or something.
Honestly, I’m mostly in the “don’t care what you believe” camp, but I generally keep that stuff to myself. Just like I did when I was a believer.
Evangelism, even for atheism, can be tiresome. If someone asks me, I’ll tell them what I think and why, but otherwise it’s none of their business, and neither is their belief any of my business.
The nice thing though, is that when I do find out that a friend is a fellow atheist (which is happening increasingly often), we just kind of nod at each other and move on to different topics. There really isn’t anything to discuss, so we talk about more interesting subjects.
Your second paragraph pretty much says it all.
I refer to myself as either being an Asatruar with a lot of doubts, or an atheist with a large number of superstitions. I tend to get uncomfortable when my ex talks about whatever woo she’s into… but I can also use the language when I need to, and have a tendency to pray to a variety of deities at various moments.
I’m more or less uninterested in the God question, except when someone gets in my face about it… especially customers at work… gah, I want to beat people who try to start a religious discussion with me at work. I want to say “Dude, I’m at work, and I work for the city. I can’t express my true thoughts and feelings on this, so kindly shut the fuck up.”
Religion is a coping mechanism for Life. Many people use religion to focus and direct their good deeds; many use it to justify their bad deeds. Sometimes the same person does both at different times or at different phases of their lives.
I focus on the deeds and not the motivation.
A person who lives a “good life” and says it’s because God or religion gave them the strength to be principled is fine with me.
Why should we be more tolerant? They certainly aren’t tolerant of us. If the zealots aren’t willing to keep their religious beliefs out of our secular nation’s laws, then fuck ’em, is all I have to say. It’d be one thing if they worshiped and did their thing without getting in my way, but they get in my way EVERY DAY. I live in Arizona, so I deal with this, “Bug god told me to do it!” shit every day, and I’m tired of it.
I’m tired of Gov. Brewer using god as a reason to rid gays and non-married couples their domestic partnership benefits, a year after they were passed. I’m tired of Gov. Brewer using god as a reason to take away my right to make decisions about my body. I’m tired of Gov Brewer and every other zealot making it a-ok for a pharmacy to refuse to sell me birth control because of THEIR beliefs.
Essentially, I DO care and we SHOULD care, because religion affects our lives and laws every day, which is 100% unacceptable.
Once they stop trying to butt into my life with their god, then I will stop caring. Until then, it IS my business and I will not stop caring or fighting against it.
Playing nicely has NEVER worked. You can’t fight the loud, angry zealots with silence.
There is a big reason why the LGBT community has made so many strides in the last decade: By being loud. By not being nice. (Not being nice doesn’t mean being violent.) By not taking no for an answer.
That said, audience and context matters. There’s need for PZ Myers — and there’s a need for The Friendly Atheist. And everything in between.
But yeah, I do care. I really, really do care. Because it effects my life every.single.day.
I was with you until your second paragraph, as you started mentioning reasons why we need to be concerned about the debate. I am inclined to think you were trying to imply that it doesn’t matter what people believe as long on they keep it to themselves and it doesn’t affect their thinking, decision making, or judgement. But aye, there’s the rub. How can it not? Issues like abortion, gay marriage, sexuality, evolution, drugs, medicine, global warming, and on all seem to be divided between rational and secular people on one side and people with religious leanings who base their reasonings on unfounded mythical paradigms irrelevant of the facts. Those people tend to be in the majority and therefore have a stronger influence on the rest of us.
Skepticism is about critical thinking. Any concept that fails to stand up to critical thinking needs to be confronted, and religion tends to be a prime example of that, and definitely leads to an inability to embrace reason.
In regards to the “war” thing, while there are some very militant atheists it seems to me (just my observation) that the War On Religion is akin to the War On Christmas – wholly made up defensively by Christians. It’s seems to be a knee-jerk reaction to any dissent or criticism as opposed to an actual outright crusade (forgive the pun) to obliterate religion from society altogether.
@Paradym: Basically exactly what you said. Especially the “war” thing. I don’t really see atheists in a war — I do see Christians claiming there is a war against them. Which is typical of them.
I’m in the “I don’t care as long as you aren’t shoving it in my face” camp.
Personally, I’m tolerant of most religions. I think most agnostics are, and also most atheists. I really don’t like it when people who claim to be rational lump moderate religious people in with the wingnuts and extremists. My mom’s religion and church plays a big part in her life, and it’s mostly good. I have no intention of trying to change her. She’s Christian, but she’s pro-choice, accepting of homosexuality, and fairly liberal in general. She occasionally falls for alt-med things, but mostly because she just doesn’t know enough about biology. She goes to her doctor for important things, she giggles along with me at my alt-med-loving aunt, and she doesn’t believe in horoscopes or astrology. She never forgoes treatment by saying that “God will take care of it”, because she, like nearly all other Christians I know, expect that “God will take care of it” through a doctor.
A few atheists might say that my mom doesn’t really count as a Christian, but who are they to decide what counts? She counts just as much the extremists, who ignore as much of the Bible as moderates. If my mom takes the more sensible approach of considering biblical stories to be allegories, who is to say that she is less a “real” Christian than those who take everything literally?
Most people in the United States are reasonably smart, yet most of them are also religious. I certainly think that we need better education in certain subjects, but when it comes to religion, it doesn’t seem to be ruining the majority of people. It’s a shame that extremists have the loudest voice, but they really don’t represent mainstream religion, no matter how much they claim to.
I think @marilove has the right end of it. The problem is that if atheists/agnostics/skeptics are quiet and polite we’ll surrender much ground without a fight. And it is a fight.
There may be a “war” to keep religion out of our laws, but it’s not realistic to view it as religious vs. atheists. Most Christians that I know don’t want to push their religion onto everyone else. Even the ones that want to convert everyone often don’t want to do it through laws, because they think it doesn’t really “count” unless it’s voluntary. In this particular “war”, a lot of religious people would be on our side. It’s really important to distinguish between extremists and moderates, even though it’s tempting to lump them all together. It doesn’t help that extremists tend to be the loudest.
Other than interfering with our laws, there really is no “war”, unless it’s important to you that everyone else be an atheist too.
like the first commenter @Zapski: said, for me it comes down to respect. as long as someone doesn’t push any hidden agenda or force onto me their beliefs while cutting down what i believe, then i am cool with them. i have quite a few dear friends that are religious, and i love them dearly and also love that we can talk about science things or religious things without even a hint of bitterness or passive-aggressive judgement.
but yes, people that try to evangelize (religious and non-religious alike) and look at people as nothing but mere “projects” for them to mold into exactly what they see fit….those people can kiss my fucking ass and get shot into a singularity in space.
@Paradym: Yes, this.
Also, I don’t think mocking or attacking folks for simply being of a different belief system is the way to go. Note that I said “simply.” Once someone’s belief system leads them to do or say something stupid, dangerous, or intolerant of others, they’re fair game. Or rather, their words or actions are fair game for the mocking.
@catgirl: The problem I see is that the majority of self-proclaimed moderates really aren’t moderate — they vote against gay marriage. Every day. They vote against abortion. Every day.
I really don’t know a whole lot of people who identify as Christian (and not just spiritual) who will vote pro-choice. Many won’t vote for gay marriage.
They may identify as moderate, but their religious views are still getting in the way of my life.
And that’s still not cool.
This one is tough. I don’t have much of a stomach for conflicts.
I don’t like to fight.
One of the things I love about my job is their stance on religion. As best I can tell the parnters and all of the senior managment is conservative christian but it is never spoken of at work. Ever. It took me two years to get any kind of a feeling about their beliefs and I’m still not 100% certain. They are very old-fashioned and the workplace is considered to be a place where you do not talk about religion. It is impolite.
My parents go to a very hippy church, the pastor and assistant pastor are both women. There is a strong suspicion that the pastor is a lesbian, she says that she isn’t. She also says it doesn’t matter. This church organizes a monthly distribution called Angel Food where a family can get enough food to feed for people for a month for $35. No prayers needed, no need to prove any faith or even need. If you want to get the food come and get it. They also preach that no one goes to hell.
There are liberal religous people out there who should be our natural allies because they are as disturbed and frightened by the fundamentalists as we are. Yes they have an irrational blindspot but can any of us truthfully say we don’t have irrational blindspots? That we are totally rational and skeptical of everything?
I see it much more as a fight against people who want to take their existing bigotries and then claim that their religous beliefs justify those bigotries. And then they try and get those bigotries written into the law.
I’m an atheist and I care, though I would never have described it as a war myself. I think we should be having an open dialogue about the true nature of reality. Passionate debate and discussion is fine; war is unnecessary and ridiculous. Bill O’Reilly thinks there’s a “war on Christmas” any time someone says “Happy Holidays” — a phrase I grew up thinking meant “Merry Christmas and Happy New Year” put together. Where’s the war?
I also care because it’s a very short hop from “just thinking that there might be a deity” to “trying to pass blatantly bigoted laws denying groups of people their basic rights” etc. If you think there’s a supernatural being who tells you what to do and is always to be obeyed, what if you get the idea somehow that that being wants you to do something monstrous?
I think an easy analogy can be made to the skeptical attitude more generally. I mean, I don’t really care if someone believes in Bigfoot. What harm does it do? None, unless they quit their job and devote their life to hiking around in the mountains and forests, neglecting their children and forgetting their friends. But living without critical thinking skills is dangerous, because who knows what idea a credulous person will end up believing next?
@catgirl: Well, no, atheists typically don’t see this as a war. However, Christians do see it as a war — a war against their faith.
This is very typical of them.
And reminds me of this:
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008/12/17/christians-are-oppressed/
My best friend is a woo woo loving hippy and I still love her to death regardless.
The way I see it, there is a time and place for religion. Those places do not include science, government, institutions funded by the government, or statements that are fightin’ words. Other than that, I could give less of a shit if my neighbor is a raging Scientologist
I’m too tired to fight about religion. I have friends who are religious, friends who aren’t religious, friends who are republicans, friends who are democrats, friends who are socialists… It’s one of those “just don’t talk about it” deals when it comes to who I hang out with. If I like someone as a person, it doesn’t matter if they have a Bible in their bedside table. Just don’t preach to me directly.
Last weekend we had our baby showers, one of which was a family luncheon with both of our families coming together for the first time. As lunch was being served, my great uncle stood up and said grace in front of everyone. Did I storm out and make a fuss or get upset? Of course not! He is a sweet old man who adores my husband and me and is SO excited that we’re having a baby that he wanted to vocalize it the way he knows how: with prayer. And you know, it wasn’t awful. It was more of a giving thanks for (and to) our families than it was gratuitous Lord-naming. He also told me I looked beautiful “bearing the fruit of the spirit,” which cracked me the hell up and seemed more like a comic relief statement.
If someone were to do something horrible in their name of their religion, as it happens so often, it’s worth it to fight for whomever is being victimized. Also, those who push their agendas on me are likely to end up with a 2nd asshole. Going out of my way to confront people who haven’t done anything except go to church seems more like hunting. Lots of people go to church and don’t say bunk about it to anyone who doesn’t go with them. It’s the extremists we need to watch out for.
Yes I think religion is stupid. Yes I will continue to stand up for my (and everyone else’s) right to not believe in a higher power. And yes, if a friend was on the border between remaining faithful and losing their faith, I would guide them with rational logic. But I’m not going to go around trying to convert everyone I meet. That would make me just as bad as the evangelicals.
When religion is kept somewhat private and personal I have no issue with it.
When religion is use to provide you with a reasonable moral compass and makes you a better persion I have no issue with it.
When religion is the reason you use to spread hate, start wars, deny science and exercise control over people I have a big problem with it.
Also, I want to make it clear: I have no intentions of “converting” people to atheism. The only thing I care about is the fact that religion VERY HEAVILY influences our laws. And I really don’t see that changing anytime soon, especially if we just shut up and allow it to continue.
@marilove:
I guess I don’t see that as religion vs unreligion.
I see it as assholes using their religion for power. And even if you’re not religious, you should be fighting against what they’re doing.
Gay bashing isn’t about “I believe in God”… Gays can be Christians and Muslims and Jews and deists and pagans and Hindus. Using God as an excuse to hate and commit bigotry is reprehensible.
Same thing with most other religious “crimes”. It’s not about God or no God… it’s about using God as a shield, and as a sword, and as a threat… but you know, there’s pro-life atheists and skeptics… and they’re anti woman ones, and anti-gay ones.
I don’t say play nice when people are being hurt, but this isn’t about my next door neighbor getting his baby christened or midnight mass. I can still be tolerant of that guy, and my religious (maybe one day) co-workers and family members and hate what Bill Donohue and Bill O’Reilly and Ann Coulter and the Catholic Church are doing.
I try to be tolerant and inclusive and understanding, but usually I just come off sounding pitying. Which I guess I am. I’m always surprised when I find out smart people believe in something whonky, and I have a hard time concealing that, I guess.
@Chelsea: Did I storm out and make a fuss or get upset?
———-
There’s definitely some ground between “caring” and “making a total ass out of yourself”.
Where I fall out with Elyse in this one is in the world of skepticism: there are no skeptics who are Christians. Unless, of course, the evidence that a god-man worked a large number of miracles, was nailed to a tree, and now sits in heavenly judgement over all humanity has changed drastically since the last time I checked, in which case all skeptics will eventually become Christians.
That’s not to say that all skeptics have the same viewpoints on every topic, but Christianity is a word with metaphysical implications on the scale of the heliocentric solar system, and I’m pretty sure that practically all skeptics are heliocentrists.
Skeptic doesn’t mean “critical thinking when it’s convenient.” Skeptic means “critical thinker first. If you can’t or won’t examine your sacred cows critically, you just aren’t a skeptic.
Doesn’t mean you can’t be a nice person, or be reality friendly… it just means that you aren’t reality based.
Well said Elyse. Brian Thompson’s article was quite good and I thought Shermer also made some good points. And I’ll second what Sam said about your second paragraph.
I think it matters when people are irrational and attack with out using reasonable and rational arguments or can’t have a civilized discussion. Being defensive and pompous never helps when it comes to the reasonable discussion part however. And certainly holding a religious belief can not be said to reflect on ones intelligence or education. My wife occasionally attends a Christian faculty group at the university where she teaches. Lots of bright PhD types there who know its wrong when someone calls them delusional, foolish or stupid. When I gave up my religious beliefs I took my horse out of the race so to speak. I have no desire to engage in the atheist vs. believer debate except to point out the harm done in the name of religion and I’ll do that at the drop of a hat as I did while I was a believer.
@davew: I disagree that it’s a fight between believers and non-believers. I think you would find the majority of those professing a religious belief would agree with you on most ethical, moral and scientific issues. For me the fight is against the irrational and ignorant.
@Elyse: I honestly think that’s a bit naive. The majority of the religious do not believe in gay marraige. The majority of the religious do not believe that abortion should be legal. This isn’t just the extremists, either. This is why I say those who claim they are moderate really aren’t. It’s just that they aren’t as vocal or jerkish about it.
But they still vote. And they still vote with their religion.
If you believe in god, something that is inherently illogical, then is makes sense you will be more likely to believe in other illogical things, like the power of prayer.
If you believe in the power of prayer, you are less likely to work hard to fix problems, like global warming, and will instead try to pray the bad stuff away.
If you rely on prayer instead of hard work, you can hurt yourself and others.
Why should we be tolerant of stupidity, especially when stupid people in large numbers is a major threat to combating a lot of the problems facing the world today.
I don’t fight, because it’s pointless. People who have made the decision to turn off part or all of their brains aren’t going to be swayed by MY arguments.
However, I let it be known that there IS another viewpoint. In a lot of ways, I do the same thing with skepticism – the most important thing is not to let the woo exist unchallenged. Those who want to question need to know that there are others questioning too.
However, I’d be lying if I didn’t say this – I lose respect for people who believe. I guess I’m really not so tolerant. I’ve thought about it and agonized over it, but there it is.
@James Fox:
I really do not believe this.
Yes, there are plenty of self-identified Christians who would agree with me on most ethical, moral, and scientific issues, but I DO NOT think they are the majority.
If they were, gay marriage would be legal.
If they were, we STILL wouldn’t be fighting for women’s rights, especially in regards to abortion and birth control.
If they were, a “No God? You can still be a good person!” type of sign wouldn’t cause people to freak the fuck out and cry discrimination.
If they were, Sarah Palin wouldn’t have almost become vice president.
Sarah Palin is an extremist and she almost became vice president.
That shit is scary.
@Elyse: Do you think we should be more tolerant? Do you think we should be less tolerant?
I may have misread the question. I took this to mean “more or less tolerant than they are”. It could as well mean “more or less tolerant than we are now.” I think this can change the answer.
I think @Chelsea has a very apt scenario. I admire her forbearance. In that situation she was having a bit of religion pushed on her. I think she would have been well within the bounds of etiquette to push back. Politely. I was presented with a similar situation a few years back. Someone said, “Do you mind if I say grace?” I replied, “Only if you do it where I can hear.” People laughed and had a good time and I managed to make my point.
@sethmanapio:
I believe that’s called the “No True Scotsman” fallacy.
God is not testable. There is no way of knowing whether there is one or isn’t one. I think I can reasonably assume there isn’t one… but if someone else decides that there is no proof either way and so they choose to believe, I can accept that.
Why don’t you tell Pamela Gay that she’s not a skeptic?
I’m actually one of those *gasp* Christians that doesn’t tend to agree with most other Christians about much of anything and tends to agree with my skeptical and atheist friends about the majority of things.
Religion to me has become one of those things on which we can agree or disagree without it really affecting how we feel about each other. Its an opinion, like which flavor of ice cream is best. There will never be a solid “proof” one way or the other, so I don’t see why it so often become such an absolute (let alone, such a heated one).
I can understand the vitriol when the religious right’s fervor spills over into social issues like gay marriage, teaching evolution, social spending, etc. What truly sucks about my position is that as soon as I say “Christian,” I see atheists and skeptics either shut-down or flare-up, regardless of how long we’ve talked and agreed about social issues, foreign policy, or whatever else.
As someone who straddles the line between the two sides, I can tell you that the vitriol and irrationality, as ugly as it is, is not one-sided in the least.
My take? I’m just not enough of an egotist to believe that my beliefs are fraught with metaphysical significance.
As an atheist, I find it far more irreligious & even unchristian to be in bad taste to believe one’s beliefs have any world historical significance.
Atheists who fulfill the pathetic stereotype of the angry atheist (I was one of those for several years in my twenties) need to detox from this pathetic self-importance. By angry atheist I mean someone who actively seeks to deprogram Christians.
Wry amusement at taking oneself so seriously. Really atheist or not, someone who takes themselves so seriously really belongs in an absurdist comedy. When I read about the so-called war on Christians, I feel like I wandered into a Fry & Laurie skit.
@marilove: Also, to add, we wouldn’t have to literally fight against creationism being taught as science in our schools.