New video! I’m going to be doing more of these again, I promise. Here’s AronRa’s and DPR Jones‘ channels, and if you like that shirt I’m wearing you can but it at Skeptical Robot!
New video! I’m going to be doing more of these again, I promise. Here’s AronRa’s and DPR Jones‘ channels, and if you like that shirt I’m wearing you can but it at Skeptical Robot!
Thanks for the video.
The straw person issue is obviously a strawman.
Can’t wait to see you in a few weeks. We’ll get coffee in some public place!
can’t…sleep…robot eyes…haunting me…
Not sure the guy in the elevator thing was an instance of sexualizing you, just an example of a bad way to approach someone.
There is a small chance that this man meant nothing sexual in his comment, despite the fact that I had clearly indicated my wish to go to bed (alone) and the fact that the bar had coffee and therefore there was absolutely zero reason to go to anyone’s hotel room to have it. Sure. There’s a chance.
But regardless, the point I was making was that people need to be aware of how their comments might make someone feel extraordinarily uncomfortable and even feel as though they are in danger. This person failed to recognize that even though I had been speaking about little else all day long.
Certainly it made you uncomfortable: as I said, it’s a bad way to approach someone (especially a lone person on an elevator). I wasn’t there and so didn’t see body language etc, but I was just noting it’s very difficult to say he meant more than wanting to talk one-on-one to an interesting and important person in the skeptical world. You’re assuming he wanted to hit on you or was propositioning you (and that might in fact be a reasonable assumption), but an assumption is still an assumption. Perhaps he’d do the same awkward approach with PZ? Dunno.
I’m not defending him, just muddying the water as to motives.
One assumption I am perfectly comfortable making is that, despite Rebecca’s prior assertions to the group that she wanted to go to bed, this individual thought that it would be a good idea to try to change her mind. Even if we decide that he had the best intentions in mind, this decision shows a disregard for Rebecca’s expressed desires.
I imagine that he decided to make his offer in the elevator, alone with her, so that if she rejected the invitation, he could keep his embarrassment to himself. However, it’s also a situation where, if she rejected his invitation and he reacted badly to that rejection, she could not get away. If you have to turn someone down–for anything–would you rather do it in a space where you can easily make your exit, or where you’re then trapped with that person for an indeterminate amount of time?
Wow. Thanks aynsavoy. Since hearing about Elevator Gate on SGU, and reading hundreds of comments on a half-dozen sites, until now none did anything but reinforce my position solidly in the anti-Rebecca (so to speak) camp on this issue.
Your explanation somehow succeeded where others failed in helping me visualize how powerless and fearful I might have felt in the same situation, and why Rebecca was so totally justified in making the statements she did. I am now firmly in the Pro-Rebecca camp on this issue. (Hurray for open minds!)
The fallout was blown all out of proportion, I’m sure everyone would agree, including Dawkins response, Rebecca’s response to that, and so on (ad nauseum.)
I would also like to comment that, as uncomfortable as Rebecca is in “being sexualized”, it is just a fact that she is something of a sex symbol in the skeptical community. Men will continue to hit on women they find attractive–clumsily or not, successful or not–as long as males and females coexist. Perhaps all we can hope to do, as Rebecca did (and in a pretty off-handed way), is to try to steer men (and women) back on course from time to time.
My last comment is that Dawkins dickish condescension may take the cake, but Ms. Watson sounds rather condescending herself much of the time, I’m afraid. This seems to be a quite common affliction among Skeptics, myself included. I think it may simply come with the territory.
“I’m not defending him, just muddying the water as to motives”
It doesn’t actually matter what his motives were…the impact of his actions are the same…which, as previously mentioned, were creepy and threatening. To focus on his hypothetical motives serves only to discredit and disregard Ms. Watson’s accounts of the interaction. His motives could have also been to purposefully isolate her in an elevator, knowing there would be no bystanders and no way for her to leave. His motives could have been following her off the elevator or trying to find out what room she was in, or blocking her from leaving.
All of those are very real possibilities that women face all the time. There is no way to know what any man’s intentions are, unless they make it clear. It shouldn’t be up to Ms Watson or any other woman to anticipate, plan for, prepare for, or be hyper vigilant for every possible threatening interaction that may be encountered by men. It is up to men to make choices…choices that show their intentions are not harmful or threatening to others.
I also disagree that Ms. Watson made any problematic assumptions. Saying that she was “assuming” implies that Ms. Watson was not drawing on any information that led her to the conclusion of the guy being creepy. I would argue that women have a whole lifetime of experiences (sexism, threatening come on’s, men’s anger, sexual objectification, vulnerability) that serve as critical information to draw upon in these exact situations. I’d be willing to bet there were lots of small, yet meaningful cues and details from this guy or the situation, that all led up to Ms Watson feeling uncomfortable and creeped out…her panel speech and this guys disregard for the content of that speech being just one of those cues. So to say Ms. Watson is assuming the guy was sexualizing her and could have just wanted to talk, is dismissive of her experience.
http://pophangover.com/photos/oblivious-rhino-7.jpg
Coffee before bed means one thing.
You felt in danger, justifiably, because you were in a very vulnerable position. What the guy said is completely irrelevant. Don’t get on elevators with strange men at 4 am, period. Practice situational awareness.
1) It sounded like he *followed* her into the elevator. 2) That’s the equivalent of saying don’t wear short skirts because it might get you raped.
Situational awareness means looking back over your shoulder. I do it all the time since I was robbed in a suburban Home Depot parking lot (and I’m a 220 pounds and all muscle ).
But by all means, twist it into a feminist issue.
You’re 220lb of muscle and you still got robbed? How many were there?!
Joking aside, situational awareness is more important than most people would believe. I’m quite often worried by people’s lack of vigilance. It is something I nag people about, and you do right to draw attention to it.
There’s no need to “twist it” into a feminist issue. It already is.
Dear Ms. Watson:
I posted this in another thread, but thought you deserved to see it here.
There are two ways to read your statement “Don’t do that.”:?
1 A kind word of advice to men considering talking to you, limited to that particular situation in the elevator at 4am or ones very much like it.?
or
2. A demand not only of how to treat you specifically and limited to that situation, but also a broader statement of what is right and wrong when talking to women in general.
If one interprets your words in the first way, it’s hard to find any fault with them. Every woman has a right to communicate her wishes and preferences to those around her.
However, I can understand why some might have interpreted your words in the second way. Many people go quite easily from “this makes me uncomfortable” to “this is wrong, not just for me but for everyone.” Religious people do this a lot! E.g., “You must show respect for my religious ideas; if you don’t, it will greatly offend me and my god!”
If your comments were intended as a broader commentary regarding not just that particular situation late at night in an elevator, but also on how men should talk to women in general, then this would probably explain some of the push-back you have gotten.
Each man is different. Each woman is different. Every situation is unique, and general rules are blunt tools applied to delicate tasks. I can understand men who might have been perplexed or even taken aback by your words. I think you might better have expressed yourself by starting from a position of empathy and understanding for those you wished to inform. Here’s and example of how you might have communicated your advice to men more effectively:
—
“The situation in the elevator made me very uncomfortable. I felt trapped, and intimidated by the stranger. Of course I don’t know what his actual intentions were—perhaps he really only wanted to invite me for coffee and conversation—but the situation felt sexually threatening to me. If he was trying to pick me up after hearing my talk earlier in the evening, then he was being disrespectful, and was way out of line. In any event, it seemed to me that he was ignoring my statement that I was tired and wanted to sleep. Perhaps I should have countered by inviting him for a coffee the next morning in the hotel bar. I mean maybe I really had nothing to fear! But the fact is, I was so uncomfortable with the situation that I was just glad to get away from him.”
“Men, please try to show some understanding of what it’s like to be a woman. Even if you’re a true gentleman, remember that there are a lot of assholes out there. We women have to deal with them all the time. You’ll go a long way toward showing that you’re not one of the assholes if you show a little consideration. This means sometimes forgoing making an invitation if it might make the woman uncomfortable. Your intentions are surely important, but they’re not the only thing that’s important. The situation—and the other person of course—are also very important. If the man had invited me for a coffee the next morning in the hotel bar, I would have been much less like to have taken it as a sexual overture. This alone would have made me more comfortable. Just use a bit of common sense, and do your best to read the other person and the situation before acting. Women everywhere thank you in advance!”
—
Men clearly need to be conscious of how the communicate with women. I think women could improve how they communicate with men too. Remember that unlike in a debate, the goal should not be to prove the other person wrong. The goal should be to communicate your thoughts and wishes in a way that the other person will understand.
Sincerely,
Michael A. Lowry
Adapted from my blog post, “Effective communication between men & women”: http://blog.michael-lowry.com/2011/07/effective-communication-between-men.html
A) It seems blindingly obvious to me that a man inviting a woman to his hotel room at 4:00 AM implies that he is thinking of her in terms of sexual attraction.
B) After hearing her talk about how she would like to be seen as a thinking human rather than a sexual being, the man’s attempt to suggest a hotel room tryst is at best a sign of contempt for anything she has to say.
C) Asking her while the two of them are alone in an elevator at 4:00 AM is not just insulting (given her recent talk), but predatory. And if he convinces himself that, because he knows he would never assault anyone, no woman should presume he would, then he is dangerously stupid.
A & B) Glad you got that mind reading thing all figured out.
C) Certainly unintelligent and awkward. Possibly creepy. Maybe even an awkward pickup line. But “predatory”?
Everyone should take whatever precautions seem warranted in any given situation: I wouldn’t have gone to his room either. But without more information, everything you’ve tried to pin on him is based on supposition.
Are you really so disconnected from reality and common sense? A strange man asking you to his hotel room at 4am for ‘coffee’ is a direct come-on. You don’t think it’s ‘fair’ to see sexual interest unless he says ‘wanna fuck?’ Perhaps if he’d mentioned his etchings?
I don’t know an adult human being who would see the situation differently, unless they were cognitively impaired.
Way to use “cognitively impaired” to mean “thoughtless misogynist,” you insensitive asshole. Why not just say, “LOL YOU RETARD?” Why not make the differently abled as a whole your own personal rhetorical punching bag? Not like they’re good for anything else, right? Your lack of empathy is absolutely sickening.
Sexual come-on AND bad way to approach someone.
I love the “Don’t take this the wrong way” preface. Translation: after whatever comes out of my mouth, please sleep with me.
BTW, looking forward to seeing you at SkepchickCON here in MN!
I love the “Don’t take this the wrong way” preface.
.
Yeah, that’s right up there with “I’m not a racist but…” on the list of signals. This guy knew that he was hitting on you or at least that it may come across that way. Rathar than using this prefix it would be better to not say it in the first place.
.
It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to open one’s mouth and remove all doubt.
Benjamin FranOscar WilAbraham LinMark TwaiSome such smart dude.Someone on FB actually used the strawperson comment as evidence that women are forcing our society to be too PC… and called you a “rad fem”. Which, BTW, you totally are.
Is a rad fem anything like a gnarly fem?
Your use of irony is hilarious. And, to quote Syd Barrett, “what exactly is a joke?”
This is my first time posting on here, I’ve been reading for a while, quietly happy to absorb all the interesting articles and replies, but the comments on YouTube on your talk are depressing and I needed to say it out loud (or at least via commenting on the internet anyway). I find it very disturbing that people can’t see the sexism in blatantly sexist actions, particularly a group of people who are meant to be able to use rational thought to be able to find the truth. Your points and examples were clear, easy to understand, the simplest people should have been able to grasp it. The man in the elevator was bordering on slapping you on the ass and saying good work toots. Yes he was ‘appreciating and being positive of you’ in the only way he knows how, by hitting on you. Which again completely proves the whole point.
The comments about how you need to be either a feminist or an Atheist, were a bit null and void really. Its obviously a problem in the community and maybe if individual community’s through out the world had their own Skepchick equivalent, the feminist movement would make far greater strides as a whole. Anyway its a problem, someone needs to be addressing it. You Skepchicks are doing such a great job, I am a little bewildered that every single person cannot see that.
Good to see you back Rebecca.
My sister works in the Rural Health Dept of an Australian University. She co-heads the Sexual Health Dept and give talks to Doctors and other Health Professionals on sensitivities surrounding collecting data and reporting of infection uptakes to patients, especially young people.
Guess what????
She has had similar stories/complaints of unwanted advances from Conference attendees in lifts ( elevators ) late at night. She jokes that she is going to add a ” WARNING ” to her name tag.
I will never know the tedium of those experiences, or the discomfort you feel, but as a brother I do feel very pissed off at the men who create it.
For anyone who’s never been sexually assaulted (I’ve had more than one near miss, here): being cornered by some creepball with a glimmer of fuck in their eyes is a horrible feeling. Everyone with a Y-chromosome, just chill. Think about how you’re coming across. If they’re into you, they’ll let you know BEFORE the time comes to embarrass yourself.
PS- You aren’t a radical feminist, Rebecca, you’re THE Radical Feminist!
I had several aquaintences in college who were certain that “Women like men who are mysterious”, but couldn’t grasp the difference between mysterious and downright creepy. Since I was old (30’s), they didn’t want to hear any advice from me.
It certainly is interesting to see how easily something can be perceived as something else. Our intentions do not always come across as clearly as we would like them to.
Wow… I have a log-in here. Why wasn’t this site in my RSS feed?
Anyhoo, re: elevator guy. Ignore the sexism aspect of it (unfortunately, it may be necessary to divorce to issue from feminism for some people to even consider the point). Assume his motives were 110% pure. Assume that he’s a great guy, loves his mom, has a puppy, feeds the homeless, and once gave bone marrow to a complete stranger. It is STILL creepy to follow a women who doesn’t know you from a bar to an elevator at 4AM to invite her to your room. That is NEVER appropriate, and guys can’t be self-centered enough to pretend that people can read your minds and know that you aren’t an evil scumbag.
… especially since you’re kind of already acting like a scumbag. Good people don’t put other people into awkward, uncomfortable, and potentially panic-inducing situations. You don’t have to be a rapist to be an insensitive asshat. You don’t have to be a feminist to know that cornering strangers in elevators at 4AM is pretty effing creepy.
I’ve been getting quite depressed at a general mood among ignorant male ‘skeptics’ in recent months when these issues come up, and this one is a great example. Guys, if you’re upset because you don’t understand women, why not appreciate the fact that Rebecca has taken the time to educate you. No matter what you thought before watching this video, now you know better. It doesn’t matter if something seems ‘OK’, or ‘only offensive to someone who is hyper sensitive’ – if Rebecca is saying something made her uncomfortable, that’s just how it is.
Your impression of how the world ‘should be’ is no more realistic than astrologists making up charts based on how something ‘should be’.
I don’t know if it is even ignorance, as much as very sexist brand of narcissism. I seems to me to be more of a problem of some boys/men not being able to address in this case the specific situation Rebecca describes without turning it into somehow being about them. THEY would never be creepy, THEY are smoove mofos who get the chicks, and therefore Rebecca’s specific concerns over a specific event are meaningless.
You can see it over on the YouTube comments. Guys are up and down claiming “Rebecca hates men, she thinks guys can’t talk to gals without being creepy rapists!” They cannot see Rebecca’s position, because they so strongly identify with the guy in the situation and respond as though she’s talking about them personally. There’s a sexist dismissal of a woman’s legitimate concern, twisted up in an “it’s all about me” attitude. And I’m not sure how you give a speech about that, that will change people’s minds about a fundamental personality defect.
Narcissism indeed. I have been in a situation where I buzz-sexualized a friend in a creepy way, that made her feel threatened and of course ended our friendship. The next couple weeks I spent trying to find arguments, or “spin” arguments to defend my behavior… desperately seek ways to exonerate myself.. and then find absolution. Joe is very right. It was all about me. I was on that tack for quite some time when I stumbled on this “elevator-gate” situation and read through it. I’ve come to realize that, as males, we don’t consider the consequences of what we are doing or what we say or how we act. We don’t think about how our creepy come-ons, can cause all manner of discomforts and even fear. I’m a fairly big and physical guy, I’ve spent time in the military in a combat specialty, I grew up thinking fighting is good. I fought a lot and both kicked and got my butt kicked plenty of times. Physicality (if that’s even a word) is good and approved in our society, and we’re raised on it through sports and what-not. This is how males are supposed to act in a militant Empire culture like we have going here in America. It’s the New Rome… or Rome Hasn’t Quite Ended… Yet. We’re in power and we get what we want. And we’re angry and full of self-righteousness and entitlement and it seems like that goes up the whiter the skin gets. Also. We get (or are supposed to get) what objects we desire and those objects should feel good about that. We’re a “Stepford-ized” version of Dawkins’ very myopic view of Muslim culture… but don’t let the details and subtle differences fool you.
I terrorized my friend w/ my disgusting sense of male entitlement. I’m thinking she felt disgusted, confused and probably somewhat sad at the complete betrayal of her trust in me as a friend. I’m a brutal animal. There isn’t much more to say there.
So to all the males commenting on this, if you read what I’m writing, pull your heads out of the dark holes of entitlement that they’re in. You may have physical power. You’re scary to some people. Sometimes women. When you scare a woman w/ your sexualizing, wasted or not, your being abusive. You’re thinking of only yourself and your needs. You’re making a woman feel like a slave-object, if even for a moment that’s as bad as what Dawkins’ “Muslima” has to go through every goddamn wretched day. You need to start thinking ALL THE time about how others may view you, in ever situation w/ an eye toward their comfort levels. You aren’t owed anything and you have no birth-rights. Size and physical prowess is not something to bring to a relationship. Friendship and trust. That’s all there is our brief march towards personal oblivion. Friendship through giving and kindness.
I can certainly see that his timing was disrespectful and the location for his advance was down right creepy. Those two factors alone would justify anyone in feeling uncomfortable.
Would it still have been a problem if he had hit on you in the bar at 2:00 AM and not suggested going back to his room?