Before I joined Reddit, I never thought of myself as a masochist. The great thing about Reddit is that you can subscribe to particular subreddits that represent your interests – in my case, that might be skepticism, atheism, feminism, science, and pictures of baby animals – and ignore the subreddits that make you angry, like Men’s Rights, Beating Women, Space Dicks, and [Choose Prefix] Jailbait. The problem is that Reddit is infested with shitty, racist, sexist, bigoted people, to the point where it’s nearly guaranteed that some of those people will post in your special interest subreddit. The larger the subreddit, the better the chance that this will happen.*
And so it is with r/atheism. R/atheism is very large, and so it is jam packed with assholes. And yet! I continue to read it every day. I read it even though I usually learn nothing new from it and it only serves to create and foster inside me an intense hatred of my fellow atheists.
Two days ago, 15-year old Redditor Lunam posted a thread called “What My Super Religious Mother Got Me For Christmas“, in which she linked to a photo of herself holding Carl Sagan’s Demon-haunted World:
What a cool thing to happen! A touching tale of religious tolerance. I’m sure the comments will be appropriately celebratory and, seeing as she’s 15, nonsexual. LOL.
“The jeans I’m wearing right now are older than her. But then again, they’re full of holes.”
“Aaaaaand so is she…”
“I was trying not to, but it needed to be said.”
Look you guys, it needed to be said! Obviously someone had to make it clear that this 15-year old girl has various orifices that these grown men could stick their penises into. Swimmerhair is just the man who took the fall. He’s just saying what everyone’s thinking, as made clear by the 167 upvotes he got [the numbers to the right of usernames are net points, then the breakdown of upvotes in orange and downvotes in blue. That breakdown is not necessarily perfectly accurate but it is close].
But hey, you know, in some countries it’s totally legal for a grown man to have sex with a 15-year old. So let’s add abduction and rape to the mix:
There are about 900 more comments to get through. Get comfortable.
“Relax your anus, it hurts less that way.” (+1715, -648)
“Blood is mother nature’s lubricant.” (+570, -175)
“BITE THE PILLOW, IM GOIN’ IN DRY!”
“Tears, natures lubricant”
I won’t show all of these, but there were several dozen “clever” scientific double entendres about having sex with the 15-year old in question, all of which were heavily upvoted:
But hey, at least some of the Redditors in the thread were the right age** to be sexualizing a 15-year old girl who had the temerity to post a picture of her face on the Internet:
If it’s not enough that the 15-year old girl is getting a nonstop flood of rape offers from grown men, there are also plenty of posts trying to make her feel bad for being such a stupid fucking female:
SinghNYC has been holding onto that image for WEEKS just waiting for some dumb fucking female to post a picture. POW, take that, female! These examples showing otherwise mean nothing. Nothing! Also, I’m sure this is not a guy but is actually a stupid female:
And this guy, too:
And this guy:
CMETRIQ took it to the next level and linked to PROOF that only stupid females include their stupid faces in their pictures:
Which linked to this:
See? Ignory_is_bliss doesn’t show his face! He even used a throwaway account to post that picture and he doesn’t even give away whether he’s a man or a woman in any of his posts with that account. Because that’s what a man does! Like a man.
These examples only came from the top voted comments on the thread – there are more than 700 that I haven’t even looked at. There are also several threads that were started to mock the original, like:
That’s 21-year old motivational speaker Lizzie Velasquez, who has a debilitating syndrome so rare it doesn’t even have a name. HA HA.
Don’t worry, though. I’m sure that none of this had any negative impact on Lunam, the 15-year old girl who posted her picture on an atheist site in the hopes of enjoying a conversation with her fellow atheists:
“Dat feel when you’ll never be taken seriously in the atheist/scientific/political/whatever community because you’re a girl. :c”
“well, if you will say things like “dat feel”…”
Oh right. It’s her fault for writing like a 15-year old. Not for having all those holes for men to stick their dicks in or for being a girl who took a chance to join an online discussion. Fuck you, r/atheism.
*Every subreddit has moderators, and there are some subreddits where the moderators actually moderate discussion and keep it from turning shitty. r/atheism is not one of those subreddits.
**J/K, there is no right age to be that shitty.
EDIT: I feel like I should once again mention that r/shitredditsays makes Reddit worthwhile.
EDIT 2 (1:43pm ET): On Facebook, Boozer Brödy linked me to this thread, in which another hilarious jokester posted a parody with porn star Sasha Grey. Awesome.
I’ll also add a quick note for those of you (not yet in the comments below, but elsewhere) who cry, “So what! Terrible people are everywhere! It’s the Internet!” You? You are awful, too. R/atheism is a huge community of atheists, and here is an example of a young woman attempting to join it, to get more involved, who is sexualized and mocked for being a girl. Why would she ever want to be a part of any atheist community, if that’s how she’s treated? The next time you look around your atheist events and wonder where all the women are, think of this and know that there are at least some of us who aren’t willing to just accept this culture without trying to change it.
Oh, Reddit :(
Instead of making you hate atheists, it would make more sense to hate the assholes and their upvoters which you cite in the article… and the non-moderator at reddit who allowed this crap to flourish. (I applaud Beleth for providing a (lightly but still moderated) sub-forum at SGU forums for stuff that might offend the more sensitive among us and putting it in a somewhat isolated “sandbox”).
Meanwhile, it is definitely worthwhile to expose this shit for what it is. Lunam should be contacted by a Skepchick to point her to the many excellent forums which are appropriately moderated.
Not to excuse this crap in any way, let’s keep it in perspective. There are about 2,000,000,000 internet users worldwide. Maybe half of these are capable of posting in some at least semi-intelligible attempt at English. Of these, maybe a couple of thousand do in fact post such crap and/or approve those messages. Any unmoderated forums have attracted these kinds of creepy posts since the dawn of the internet in the mid-1980s when ISPs still provided their own proprietary message boards. It isn’t any different than the crap that gets scrawled on (mostly men’s) toilet walls and the motivation is probably similar. In the case of men’s toilet walls, it is generally not as specifically misogynist, but is more about ensuring that homosexuals know how the creeps feel about them. I suspect that walls of unisex toilets would have similar content to that under discussion here. The point is that the overwhelming majority of humans are neither condoning, nor are they responsible for this outrage. Most are “mouse potatoes”, consuming content without creating any, and of those who do create “content” (you have to have an unjustifiably broad definitions of “content” to include the above mentioned crap) — a tiny fraction are responsible for the entire seemingly overwhelming mountain of shit the internet produces.
Not in any way to belittle the problem, but let’s not let it warp our perceptions of our fellow humans too much. Let’s not forget that the folks who responded as most did here to this latest outrage reflect the thoughts of the actual moral majority… and let’s also not forget that those who make the most noise, get to set the tone of public discourse and policy.
I use reddit quite a bit and still find it to be a valuable site. However, I spend quite a large time down-voting rape and sexist “jokes” (which are not unique to r/atheism). It doesn’t frustrate me too much that such crap gets posted (after all, assholes exist in this world, and some of them have keyboards). What frustrates me is that threads like some of what you have shown end up as the top-voted threads.
There is no excuse for that. Reasonable people need to get off their asses and bury this crap in down-votes. We need to badly outnumber the neanderthals and drive their karma scores through the floor. We probably *do* outnumber them, but we need to get hard-core about having zero tolerance for sexism (even if it initially made you laugh).
Let’s train ourselves, and fix the reddit community along the way. Don’t leave, come back, gird up, and down vote the shit until “Hur-hur, you have a vagina!” is relegated to a handful of novelty accounts.
Yeah, that’s why I stuck to the top-rated comments – to show that it’s not just one or two assholes. It’s a whole community of people who congratulate one another for being awful.
The only thing that struck me about this interaction (it’s no surprise to me that there are people who will jump at the opportunity to say creepy and inappropriate things behind the veil of anonymity) was that the OP expressed her displeasure at not being able to partake in meaningful conversation as a member of the community.
Anonymity works both ways. It emboldens people who have the urge to speak with malice and it provides everyone with the opportunity to be judged only by what they say without consideration of race, creed, age, gender or orientation.
By providing her own image in a post meant to highlight a book she received as a gift, she sacrificed her account’s access to anonymity and to participation based on her words alone.
Yes, it’s sad that people jumped at the opportunity to make light of raping a 15 year old girl and yes, it would be nice if her post would’ve fizzled with a few upvotes and the “isn’t that nice” responses it warranted, but nothing is really lost here. She can, and should, still participate in the discussions she believes she has lost the privilege of participating in, and /r/atheism — despite its flaws — provides a venue for her to do so in the future using a different name and with no one being the wiser because of this incident.
I approved this comment so that you’d be able to reread it and think about it and maybe realize how awful and point-missing it is. You’re saying that it’s okay because women can join in on the discussions on Reddit so long as they never reveal that they’re women and so long as they’re okay discussing topics with a bunch of asshole misogynists.
Don’t ask, don’t tell, right? Just let everyone assume you’re a guy. That’s the default, anyway, right? Straight, male, white. Diversity can go fuck itself. Great solution.
I think you’re assuming that in order to partake in a meaningful discussion we must first state our gender and age.
Quote the part where I said what happened was okay, if you don’t mind contextualizing the words you’re putting into my mouth.
/r/atheism cannot help if what OP is looking for is universal acceptance based on her gender. There are, however, a lot of level-headed and well-intentioned men and women there who would be happy to engage a young mind in skeptical thought. An image post to the front page is not the best way to reach this audience.
No one is saying that one “must” reveal your sex or gender, but rather that if you do, it shouldn’t matter, and you shouldn’t be targeted just because you are a woman.
The thing is, the default online is “man”. So, people generally assume that the poster is a man, unless something indicates otherwise (and that indication might not even be true). As soon as the asshole men start figuring out (rightly or not) that the poster isn’t a dude, then the insults and misogyny come flying.
That’s not right. She should be able to post and she shouldn’t have to hide the fact that she’s a woman (so therefore most people would assume she’s a man) to avoid being harassed.
I post on reddit often. I usually don’t mention my gender. Sometimes I will mention my family and it will be clear I’m male. Once or twice I posted a picture and I was in it, outing me as a white guy. I’ve never not been taken seriously as a result. Never had to worry about it. Actually – I never thought about worrying about it.
Shouldn’t EVERYONE who posts on r/atheist (or other informational subreddits) have the same privilege? I just used the word “privilege” – should that even BE considered a “privilege”?
kylev misses the point too. I refuse to try to correct assholes from being what they are, I am not their mom and dad, and disapproval actually may fuel their coarseness, I just refuse to join them, and will find another site and perhaps create one more open and moderated, YES, I said moderated one(as this one we’re on), is it that Reddit moderators are afraid of losing hits to the site?(I actually read that argument at r/atheist from someone saying Becca W wrote what she did about this to get hits to her blog). So be it, hits be damned, tell them to get the F**K out, we don’t want you here anyway. The only way to combat sexism, misogyny, and disrespect for women is to shut them down, disallow their freedom of speech, they’ll find a place that allows that kind of stuff. Pushback against them as hard as they puchback against women who are trying to raise the civility. It is like the entire discourse in this country is one in which anything goes, as in my opinion is equal to anyone else’s, no matter how misinformed. I am not entitled to my opinion simply cuz’ I have one, but I am entitled to my “informed” opinion and I should not waste anyone’s time spouting vitriol that has no regard for the facts(or nonsense regarding sexism, misogyny, or disreapect). If my “informed” opinion is right or wrong, then I be should expect to catch hell for it either way and open and willing to be challenged. This will work only if we have all agreed not to spout ill-informed nonsense, with the stipulation that our facts may be challnged. As it is, without requiring being “informed,” our opinion becomes entitled, however wrong it is. Of course, the same idea can be construed in voting as a citizen as when an informed voter has the same vote as someone who is colossally uninformed, so, the move is to raise the level of discourse through some requirements. Basic civics, or knowledge of current events, I dunno, I don’t pretend it’ll be easy. The same can be done with normal discourse between people.
fontaine missed the whole thing, I was surprised you let it go, too, seems he’s wanting the 15 yr old’s exposure through her picture and the response by others to be her fault, when really as long as she is anonymous and no one knows she is a woman, then they can think she is a man and talk as we are all men here, fact is her picture is irrelevant, but due to her openness and honesty she felt no distrust as any atheists would enjoy knowing their religious relatives had given a book that they may think has to do with atheists due to the words Demon-Haunted or perhaps due to Carl Sagan the author being an atheist, whatever, she should not have to guard her gender, her femininity, her physical picture, or even her atheism, or her anonymity being exposed, under no circumstances should she have been attacked and made a joke of no how, no way, period. I have refused in my life to laugh at hurtful ethnic humor, or racist humor(yes, I cringed listening to Richard Pryor, but if he was nearby, I would have called him out to just stop it), or jokes about disability, none of it. When folks are self deprecating, maybe I can understand or be amused by that as we are all able to laugh at ourselves from time to time and joining others as they laugh at themselves is not the same as telling a joke about someone else that they do not and cannot join in the laughter about), but not when someone else is telling jokes about others that are hurtful and antagonistic or hostile.
My bias of women is seeing them in their roles as nurses, mothers/homemakers, secretaries, sales clerks, teachers at all levels, relatives(I know, not an occupation) but that changed as I saw the possibility of other roles, with more opportunities for women, Gloria Steinem’s, and Betty Freidan’s message comes to mind. I also saw the pushback by men not wanting things to change, comfortable as women being their mothers or wives(often as only sex objects?)
If the 15 year old had been a man, there would not have been any of the uproar that occurred here. I feel bad for her, and want to tell her to look for other forums, they do exist and just run don’t walk away from this r/atheist site. Yeah, Yeah, I’m a Feminist.
So … basically … we women should never reveal that we are women, and if we do, well, geez, it’s our fault! We asked for it!
So, basically, what you’re saying is that just by being women, and by revealing to the world that we are women, we are asking for and deserve this sort of harassment?
Just … wow.
E-burkas for all of us! That’ll solve the problem!
Women should be seen and not heard. Or was it heard but not seen? No, neither … that’s it. You don’t want to tempt these weak minded, horny guys. They are not in control of themselves …
It’s all very logical you see!
[Hmm, I seem to have misplaced my sarcasm sign … well, most of you can figure it out …]
Just, whoa. My mouth is so full with the words you’re adding to what I said!
I’m just not sure where you are seeing the part where I defend or dismiss the abhorrent comments that were made to the OP.
It’s possible that you don’t know how reddit works, as I’m guessing you don’t frequent that cesspool. When you post to the front page, EVERYONE sees it. Pedophiles, convicted rapists, adulterers, pastors, liars; there is no filter. They are all invited to comment on a post they see, and they all do. Am I saying that by revealing to the world that you are a woman you are asking for people who hate women or who prey on women to comment? Yes. That will happen. There is no filter, although I wish there was.
I am not excusing this behavior, nor did I say that I was.
” provides a venue for her to do so in the future using a different name and with no one being the wiser because of this incident.”
That is a quote. From you. You said she should hide her identity as a woman to avoid being harassed. That’s what you said. Word for fucking word. I put nothing in your mouth; you said it.
Basically: If you’re a woman and post on Reddit, you’ll get harassed. So just remain anonymous and don’t reveal your gender.
Instead of focusing on the disgusting harassers, you put the blame squarely on the victim. Good job!
And if she doesn’t wnat to stay in a place that would harass her just because she’s a woman, and where people are telling her to change her name and hide her gender if she does want to continue without harassment, I don’t blame her at all, and I’d be surprised if she decided to stick around. I certainly wouldn’t want to stick around, and this isn’t really helping my opinion of Reddit as a hole. I still have no desire or plan to participate or really read any of the threads, because it’s really not a comfy place for women.
Apparently I can’t respond past 5 responses deep so I’ll have to try and squeeze a lot of response into right here.
I didn’t say she should hide her identity. I said reddit provides a venue where people can participate anonymously without fear of facing the misogyny that is still present despite concerted efforts from several leaders within the movement to resolve the problem.
Is it ideal? No. Is it worse than not participating at all? That’s up to each person to decide individually.
And can we please stop with the “basically, he’s (even though I never said I was a man, you’ve assigned me that gender) saying” summaries? It’s not honest and it’s not what I’m saying. I understand you’re upset about the way she was treated but I’m trying to have a discussion. I don’t need you to speak on my behalf.
I don’t know why you’re quoting facts about the treatment of women on the internet to me. I know these things. I see them. Go ahead, scout out my comment history. Find one instance where I have reacted to the gender of a person on reddit, either positively or negatively.
To treat me like the filth who posted these comments is not only unfounded, it’s counterproductive. Am I anatomically similar to the people at the root of this problem? Yes. And the sooner you can make the distinction between the people trying to have a discussion and the people making rape jokes, the sooner we might start making steps forward.
In the meantime, though? I’ll keep soaking up your anger as you lash out at me. Come back tomorrow and read the replies you’ve made. You can’t fight hate with hate. If you react to everyone who comes to you with comments — whether you disagree with them or not — in this way, progress is a long ways off.
“reddit provides a venue where people can participate anonymously without fear of facing the misogyny”
No. Just because it’s not *directed* at someone in particular doesn’t mean they don’t have to “face the misogyny.”
And did you really also just pull a tone troll (http://pharyngula.wikia.com/wiki/Tone_troll)? Telling someone that you “know they’re upset” but that you’re “just trying to have a discussion” is tone trolling ((http://shakespearessister.blogspot.com/2008/05/feminism-101-on-anger.html).
You really are digging yourself in deeper the more you comment.
And now you’re being PATERNALISTIC on top of it??? Did you seriously just admonish her? It sounded like “go to your room and think about what you’ve done, young lady!”
Please, just freaking stop.
I told myself I was done with this discussion but hey, Will.
I don’t know what tone trolling is, but it sounds like an easy way to justify someone responding out of character to an argument.
A: “I feel this way.”
B: “HEY FUCK YOU YOU PIECE OF SHIT.”
A: “Sorry, I was just trying to have a discussion.”
How is this person A’s fault?
Secondly, if I can’t say that I feel a bit like a scapegoat because it’s paternalistic, there are some larger problems at play that I’m not interested in getting in to. Would you be happier if I’d start swearing and getting angry? Would that elevate us all to the same level?
Well, sorry Will, I won’t do it. Now go to your room and think about what you’ve tried to pin on me, young man.
You do realize that I was talking in generalities, and not necessarily about you specifically? Except where I quoted you, of course, when you basically said that women should remain anonymous to avoid harassment.
You keep saying we women can post “anonymously” and not be harassed. And I said: That is because “anonymous” generally means “male”. So, basically, just go with the default of “male” to avoid harassment. That, in itself, is misogyny. You’re defending sexism and misogyny.
And, no, I won’t go to my room. I’m being perfectly pleasant. Interesting, however, that you think I’m somehow being too aggressive. Is it because I have a vagina and I’m not keeping my proper place? Guess I should just post anonymously so you can assume I’m male and therefore treat me with respect.
I think it’s considered bad internet etiquette (and I know it’s considered bad real life etiquette) to respond directly to someone using generalizations. Even in the event that you don’t believe it to be rude I have a very hard time seeing any way it could be construed as constructive.
But I think I’m noticing a pattern. There’s no constructive intent here. This is an anger circlejerk where people can come and piss all over the injustices they perceive in the system. Fuck any and all comers who try and view things from a different angle, especially should that be one of optimism or problem solving.
You really ought to cut it out with the “basically said” stuff. I know what I said. I don’t need you to tell me what I “basically” said. I just fucking said it. I know exactly what I said, and how you basically twisted my words isn’t of any interest to me.
I’ve been saying that ANYONE can post anonymously and avoid harassment. I don’t know how powerful you are in the fields of mysticism and divination, but I know that I do not automatically assume that words spoken online are coming from a male’s mouth. You may be able to reliably predict the behavior of millions of other endlessly complex internet users, but at least try to keep from speaking on my behalf. I know it would really make you feel good if I did because it would be that much easier to hate everyone, but I don’t. So, no, basically don’t use your shitty, faulty logic to call me a misogynist.
Your last paragraph makes me fucking sick. I don’t care what you’ve got between your legs, if you act like a self-righteous and belligerent know-it-all I’m going to react accordingly. All of the absurd gender biases you attributed to my simple disagreement with you reveals the depths of your mistrust and hatred. Motherfucking Eve Ensler could disagree with you in the comment section of your favorite blog and you’d call her a misogynistic troll.
I’ve had enough of this. I was hoping that this would be a good place to discuss an unfortunate event: how quickly true colors show themselves.
It’s fine if you want to remember me as the tone troll who got the last word. My mind has been made up as to the makeup of the skepchick community.
I apologize! You clearly have said absolutely nothing worthy of objection. You simply came in and stated your completely objective feelings with absolutely no hint of sexism or privilege, and you were screamed at by a gaggle of shrill banshees as a result! For NO REASON other than the fact that YOU ARE A MALE and have the AUDACITY to TALK!
Back in reality, though, what you did was come on here and make excuses for sexism and misogyny, accuse women of being too emotional to have a conversation, basically tell them to remain hidden if they want to be heard or to shut up if they don’t want to remain hidden. And you pretend like you’re the first privileged person to waltz into a thread here and make these arguments, as if they have not been made ad nauseum. In defense of misogyny and sexism!
But no, you’re completely innocent. Nothing you wrote here was deserving of any scorn. I mean, these are all completely original feelings you expressed that have never before left the lips of another man directed at a woman. Right?
You are not a scapegoat. You have made comments here that have been called out as sexist and typical of misogyny and your response, instead of listening, is to become paternalistic and defensive. It doesn’t matter what TONE anyone took when telling you these things. Someone being angry does not negate the validity of their argument, and it is a typical sexist tactic to try to dismiss someone’s statements using their tone (this is tone trolling, as I told you earlier). And this is assuming that anyone in this thread was ACTUALLY angry at you. I doubt anyone was genuinely angry at you–probably more like people get annoyed by the same tired sexist arguments being repeated.
Stop acting like a martyr, fontaine. Flounce all you want to, it doesn’t change the fact that you have essentially told women that they should remain anonymous if they want to avoid harassment. And, as Will has said, your arguments are tired and cliched.
As I have said, oh, three times, the default online is (usually) male. But as soon as a woman reveals herself to not be a man, that’s when the vitriol happens. This sort of stuff does NOT happen to men. If it had been an attractive young guy on the other end, those disgusting comments never would have happened.
Your answer to this is for women to remain anonymous, ignoring the fact that that means we have to pretty much lie about our identity, because if we don’t, crap like this poor girl had to go through, and then we’re harassed just because we are women. Instead of addressing the sexism and misogyny, and the people who are saying some REALLY disgusting stuff, you focus on the victim. Typical. Tired. And you know what? Fuck you.
Excuse the fuck out of me? My comment below was just disappointment, now I’m just pissed.
“She can, and should, still participate in the discussions she believes she has lost the privilege of participating in, and /r/atheism — despite its flaws — provides a venue for her to do so in the future using a different name and with no one being the wiser because of this incident.”
So, let me get this shit straight. Because a bunch of losers decided to get all creepy when a 15 year old girl showed off a thoughtful gift, because a bunch of losers decided that her youth and her femaleness was the point of her post, and not the book, SHE ought to come back and hide behind a username? SHE should change her name and become anonymous, not the fuckheads talking about raping a 15 year old girl? Are you fucking high?
Nevermind, even stoners aren’t this fucking dense.
Fuck you and your privilege-soaked bullshit.
Don’t you know? It’s always up to the oppressed minority/individual/victim to avoid being harassed, or raped, or oppressed, or victimized.
Basically, what he’s saying: If you’re a woman, well, you deserve it.
The reason I said she should continue to participate is because she seemed to express dismay over not being able to:
“Dat feel when you’ll never be taken seriously in the atheist/scientific/political/whatever community because you’re a girl. :c”
I don’t want her to abandon skepticism because of a bunch of fuckheads.
Are you seriously saying that women should avoid being openly female in public, or else they bring misogyny on themselves? And that she should stay in a place that clearly has no interest in her other as a “jailbait” life support system for her genitals?
No, I’m not seriously saying those things. I don’t remember saying them anywhere, in fact. I don’t think I even mentioned a “‘jailbait’ life support system for her genitals”, although I may just not be remembering my post correctly.
In what fundamental way are a woman’s contributions to the skeptic community different from a man’s? Are you less of a woman if you don’t add a disclaimer to every post you make stating your gender?
There are unhappy misogynists that frequent /r/atheism. They frequent reddit. They’re everywhere. There are also people who want to foster constructive discussions regardless of the participants’ gender. We just don’t speak as loudly as the drivel.
You really aren’t getting it, fontaine. It SHOULDN’T matter what her gender is, but it’s clear that it DOES, because as soon as a woman reveals herself, the harassment and misogyny drastically jumps up. Not to mention women are taken far less seriously. Additionally, the default is “man” — if you don’t reveal your gender, most people assume if you post online, especially in a place like Reddit, that you’re a man. That’s not in any way a good thing. If you do happen to reveal your gender, for whatever reason (and it may be a personal thing and not because you are trying to “say something” in relation to your gender and Skepticsim, like you keep implying), and you’re a woman, shit goes south, and it goes south fast.
I’m a woman. I generally have user ids that reveal that (Marilove, for instance). It’s not because I’m trying to attach my gender to my opinion or ideas or thoughts on skepticism. It’s because it’s my fucking identify and I shouldn’t have to hide it just to avoid harassment. I shouldn’t have to hide my fucking identity to avoid people like you trying to claim that, because I’ve revealed that I’m a woman, I must have some sort of agenda.
identify … identity … close enough, right?
Look, I’m going to go ahead and out myself as being on fontaine’s side. I understand what you and marilove are saying, but you have to understand what fontaine is saying as well, which I believe I can adequately sum up:
1) Yes, it’s terrible that we live in a misogynistic world.
2) But it is still the world we live in.
3) Do all you can to change it, I won’t stop you — I would gladly help the cause if I had the opportunity.
4) But understand that /r/atheism is easily dodged and there ARE ways to have intellectual discussions while avoiding rape jokes if you’re a female.
5) Please, take everything fontaine (and myself) says exactly as it is and do not make up points that are not blatantly stated… This is probably my biggest pet peeve, having grown up with a delusional and dangerously mentally ill mother.
That aside, there is just one more thing that bothered me about your commentary… “dat” is not a staple of teen slang and it is very apparent she inserted it there to have the same effect that “le” (for example, “le me, derping about”) has. While I agree, the response was unwarranted, you are probably not correct; this wasn’t a typical 15 year-old phrase… But that’s neither here nor there.
@ butido: ‘this wasn’t a typical 15 year-old phrase’, What is that suppose to mean exactly? If it is neither here nor there why say why did you bring it up in your statement?
@Butido:
You’d combat misogyny if you “had the opportunity”? You do. Just stop posting. And the next time you feel the need to say something stupid, don’t. Your opinions, those of the Straight White Male, are not as important as you think
@fontaine (It won’t let me respond directly to you)
Watching you deny the very things you’re saying is making me laugh. I keep thinking about the scene from BASEketball when Coop and Remer create the game in an attempt to look better in front of more successful people:
Yeah, so one person makes a shot and then the next person has to make the same shot or they get a letter.
So it’s like horse?
No! It’s not like horse!
LMAO! Own up to what you’re saying.
@Butido (It won’t let me respond directly to you)
1) Yes, it is. That’s why we’re trying to make it better.
2) Yes, it is. That’s why we’re trying to make it better.
3) We are trying to change it by calling out shit like this when it happens. Letting assholes know this behavior is NOT okay is a small part of making it better.
Your words “Do all you can to change it, I won’t stop you — I would gladly help the cause if I had the opportunity.” are lies. You have the opportunity to help all the time but especially right now by also calling out this shit but you’re not taking it. Instead you’re basically telling us to shut up and take it because it’s how the world is. You are obviously interested in upholding the status quo and stopping any change.
4) I can’t speak for readdit because I choose to not go there.
Fontain – sorry not used to how the thread is working here…
If I hide my identity as a woman and encounter hatefilled rapist fantasies in reddit threads…Should I act as if they roll off my back like water off a ducks? So that I can enjoy the high minded atheist discussions tucked in between? If I am incognito and being all anonyrational and guylike…then I guess I will be enabled with super powers which enable me to abandon other 15 year old females to their fate on the internet. Or perhaps send them a polite PM about how to be anon on the internet…So their intelligence can shine above and beyond their gender.
So what happens when that anon wants to go to a professional conference in the future. Perhaps she’s spent time in forums making a fine reputation as a rationalist dude. Does she go in drag?
What I think you do not understand is my gender IS part of how I react to that and the level of justice I seek. You might as well ask me to cut off my leg then ask me to sit by while a 15 girl is treated like this.
This is not to argue for essentialism but to say gender is not something that one takes on and off like a cloak. It is a very idealized conceptual space – that beyond my gender, race, class – there is the platonic me – unsullied by my experience as a gendered human.
We do not just live online – we live in classes, schools, workplaces, with peers and bosses…. And our survival depends on knowing the “good people” from those that wish us harm. When 1700 redditers upvote a comment about making a 15 year old bleed from the anus… THAT affects ME. That affects her and that affects all the other people there. It affects me in how I relate to men, to the workplace and to my own self esteem.
It normalizes rape jokes for the young ones not surrounded by good people, it isolates the rest of the women in the forum.
Asking us all to wear a mask and pretend to be male – imagines that we are not still living our lives in a world in a body – and that world tolerates this online and off.
Pretending I am a man to enjoy the high minded discourses on the interwebs does not enlighten me. It assumes that I have nothing to offer that might be deeply related to my experience in this body. It certainly doesn’t expand my mind. It tells me there is little to be gained by playing in a sandbox dominated by the same old shit. The question isn’t why I tolerate it..or don’t.
The question is why do you?-
Eeeeyeah, ’cause 15 year olds usually have better sense than to post stupid things on the internet. This is totally her fault!
(/sarcasm)
The whole community? Really? We’re talking maybe 1,000 assholes in a subreddit with 350,000 subscribers.
Are you saying 0.003% of a subreddit’s subscribers = “the whole community?”
why does the 350K tolerate it if it reflects so badly on reddit…which does have a reputation for being a shitty place for women. that 350K HAS the power to at least attempt to fix it… but they don’t or haven’t yet. So until then who is to blame?
People on the internet say awful crap when they think they are anonymous and posting on an open forum?
You don’t say.
I think the problem was that this girl’s post just quite frankly wasn’t that interesting and didn’t warrant much discussion beyond “oh hey that’s cool,” so most of the people who would have defended her probably just glanced at the pic, maybe typed a quick comment, and moved on, leaving the small group of assholes behind. I didn’t even notice any of the comments until it was posted here because I didn’t spend much time on the thread.
Yep, asshole control is still humanity’s oldest and biggest problem.
Life is too short to waste on unmoderated discussion groups. There are many interesting, well run forums out there (like this one, for instance).
Rebecca, what makes you think that all or even a majority of the assholes you cited are, in fact atheists? Wherever there is an unmoderated forum, the asshole trolls come out to play and egg each other on.
Several of the photos indicate that their posters have religious delusions. The FFRF regularly publishes what they call “crank mail” which contains many semi-literate rants on much the same level as the crap you cite here.
The interim solution, IMHO, to this issue is to urge the young victim of this vituperation to participate in Skepchick forums and to boycott Reddit until they institute come kind of quality control.
Meanwhile, with a few unfortunate prominent exceptions, the folks setting the ideological tone (you and the SGU “rogues” are great examples) for atheist organizations do tend to be socially progressive and opposed to all forms of discrimination and asshole behavior.
Wow. Just, wow. I don’t use Reddit, but judging by this it looks like a complete cesspool. Those comments are just way beyond the pale. This is really infuriating.
Also, this seems to give whole new meaning to the recent study that found that atheists are distrusted as much as rapists (http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/story/2011-12-10/religion-atheism/51777612/1). Way to clear up that misconception, r/atheism!
From the study’s author – “Quick note about coverage of our anti-atheist prejudice paper”
http://www2.psych.ubc.ca/~azim/Azim_Shariff/Home/Entries/2011/12/10_Quick_note_about_coverage_of_our_Anti-atheist_prejduice_paper.html
TL;DR – “study that found that atheists are distrusted as much as rapists” is NOT the takeaway.
It’s not a complete cesspool, Will, but that shit is always bubbling just under the surface to erupt when and where you least expect it. It’s a too representative slice of the internet, and another data point in the difficulty of having a civilized social discussion site of large size.
*open RSS feed*
*see new post from Skepchick*
*click*
Oh, pretty girl. Oh hey, that’s the same edition of Demon Haunted World I have! Cool!
*Read text above picture*
She’s only 15? Damn, now I feel like a creepy letch. Oh no, this is about Reddit. This is going to remove all hope I have for humanity, isn’t it?
*Read, read, read*
I wonder if it’s legal to selectively cull the population based on their Reddit posts.
On the upside, I feel slightly less creepy now.
“Oh no, this is about Reddit. This is going to remove all hope I have for humanity, isn’t it?”
That’s pretty much a given.
Gives new meaning to the phrase “downvoted to oblivion”.
I’ve got to the point where I just avoid the comment section of just about any site… Well except for Skepchick I always read those comments. BUT every other site it’s really just a place for trolls to feed each other (stating the obvious). It seems those types have always existed (here’s where I date myself) I have had a CB radio since the 80’s and people are always brave when they’re hidden behind a microphone, or in the modern equivalent a keyboard.
I’m not sure what the solution is other than just ignoring them. BAck in the 80’s my friends would just track down the offenders on the radio and either pull down their basestation with a grappling hook or do brodies (burn outs) on their front lawn… so really just as mature as the idiots that make the comments.
So I guess the lesson is, it’s no wonder aliens haven’t contacted the Earth.
No, our experience has shown that ignoring doesn’t work. Exposing the misogyny and holding it up for public ridicule does.
There’s only three reasons I can think of for why the “ignore it” strategy could work. The first is they’ll get bored and go away. This sometimes works with drive-by trolls. They don’t stop being trolls, they just bother someone else, so it’s not really a cure for the underlying condition, but does (sometimes) alleviate the symptoms. This doesn’t apply to the present case anyway; it sounds like these people live on reddit and find it a conducive environment, and they aren’t getting ignored. They are getting lots of attention up-voting each other. So this reason is inapplicable.
The second reason is they’ll eventually grow up and stop doing it on their own. Without any negative feedback, why would this happen? Growing up is a learning experience. An essential element of all forms of learning is feedback. Ignoring things is the deliberate withholding of feedback, which will prevent any learning. In addition to taking a long time, there is no evidence that this will work, and strong argument against its theoretical basis.
The third reason is that eventually the malicious idiots will grow old and die and will be replaced by younger people who aren’t quite as full of hate. (This is the same as Max Planck’s cynical theory of why scientific revolutions succeed.) The first part of this reason is clearly true, but is there any evidence that the replacements will be any better? Since many of the Reddit misogynists claim to be teenagers (and apologists have excused them for just this reason), it seems unlikely.
The fourth of my increasingly misnamed trilogy of reasons why ignoring this might be the best strategy is that anything else is doomed to failure. (“Haters gonna hate.”) This is clearly not true. Even if calling out the bigots doesn’t change their behavior, it can and does promote self-examination in bystanders (yeah Someguy) and it lets Lunam and others in similar situations (i.e. all women, minorities, and anyone else who gets ganged up on by the bigots) know that they’ve got people in their corner.
That or we take off and nuke it from orbit (which unfortunately would kill both Newt and Lunam.)
I’m not sure I’ve said anything that SallyStrange and Marilove and Will and Eamc and lots of others haven’t already said (probably better), but at least I got to
quoteplagerize Riley Freeman, Ripley and Max Planck all in the same comment!Ignoring them: better known as “sitting there and taking it while not making a fuss that would bother real people”.
That hasn’t worked. Ever.
skepchick needs an upvote function.
I appreciate the +1/”like”/upvote in spirit.
Exactly. “Ignore it and it’ll go away” works about as well for misogyny as it does for lumps and strange-looking new skin moles.
I have been following skepchick irregularly since Elevatorgate (Rebecca, you are now one of my sheroes ;-) but never logged in to reply.
On reading the comment here by teambanzai, however, I have to say that I think
“pull[ing] down their basestation with a grappling hook or do[ing] brodies (burn outs) on their front lawn”
sounds like a FABULOUS idea, immature or not, and I would love to work out a way to do that in cyberspacce!
Thanks to all of you who speak out against sexism and misogyny.
I also downvote when I see responses like this. However I tend to avoid reading the comments just because of the hateful and immature responses such as shows. I generally just click the link to the story, view it, and then move on.
This is why every thread has mostly positive-voted messages no matter how shitty the entire thread is. People tend not to read it if they don’t like it.
What repulsive behavior… atheist or not.
I found Reddit when I asked friends for a recommendation for a place that had the traffic of SomethingAwful without being as generally horrible and shitty. I have no idea what ever possessed my friends to recommend Reddit. I’ve stuck around because there are a few subreddits that are actually worth reading, but the place is mostly a cesspit.
Have you found r/GodlessWomen yet?
A possible point in their defense: At one point, many many years ago, reddit was a haven for tech/geek/science minded people who were tired of the signal to noise ratio on slashdot and had too much self respect to engage on digg. That was a looooong time ago. It has changed and obviously not for the better.
Thumbs up for Lunam! I hope she sees this site.
This is so sad. I, like many others here, have specifically avoided places like Reddit because I don’t want to see that kind of crap. I only comment in places that have solid moderation, however, that self-selection leads to this kind of permissive behavior from the crotches that have self-selected to stay. Maybe what we need to turn a community like r/atheism around is for all the non-neanderthals to take an active part in community policing, even if it would expose us to our more loathsome counterparts.
I noticed how you completely ignored how the OP said “bracin’ mah anus” which started the cavalcade of comments to begin with. It’s not like she came on saying “please don’t sexualize me in this thread” and people did it anyway (which is what you did and why I sided with you on the elevator incident). She explicitly invited it, people reacted to it, they went too far.
She’s 15.
By which I mean, I think it is a socially-approved standard (even in the patriarchy) to refrain from victim-blaming for two more years. Maybe just one. You know how cunning women are, 16 year olds are always inviting all kinds of abuse, of course.
Hope I don’t have to point out the sarcasm, but you never know, so just to be on the safe side, sarcasm was used in this post.
Wow, she “invited” it?? Are you serious? Do you really think that her saying “Bracin’ mah anus” was *sexual* and an invitation to sexualize her? It couldn’t be she was saying (in a typically teenage way) that she was bracing herself?
Of course not. She is a girl, and any mention from a girl about her body is automatically an invitation to sexualize. She did not “explicitly” invite being sexualized–what a completely stupid thing to say.
Wait, so you think “bracin’ mah anus” has absolutely no sexual connotation whatsoever? What, pray-tell, would be a non-sexual reason for one to brace their anus then? Please, enlighten me.
I was referring to that single thread only anyway, which I did say was taken too far. The rest of the thread was far more insane though.
Nope, it doesn’t necessarily have any sexual connotation.
I was watching a year-in-review thing for a news show last night, and one of the reporters, earlier this year, was reporting something in a highly volatile environment, outside of the US. There was a very loud BOOM! which was later attributed to some flight tests or something, but the poor reporter at the time of course didn’t realize that. You could see her jump. I said something like, “MAN! She must have tightened her butt muscles something fierce! I would have peed my pants!”
“Tightening your anus” which is basically what she said, generally means … preparing for the worst, as it were. There was nothing sexual about it. The fact that people — including you — automatically assume she was talking about anal sex (nothing indicated that AT ALL), and then you try to claim that it’s her fault because she was “being sexual” (when she wasn’t) … well. It’s telling, isn’t it?
If a man had said the same thing, do you honestly think the replies would have been anything like that? Would you have assumed a man was talking about anal sex?
Not that it justifies the response in any way, but truthfully? Yes, yes I would have. It honestly didn’t occur to me that “bracin’ mah anus” would have any other connotation than anal sex, regardless of the sex or sexual orientation of the writer.
That a couple of sexual jokes would appear in response to a comment like that from anyone should be no surprise; I think the issue here is that this was not “a couple of sexual jokes”, but some pretty intense and offensive stuff.
Right; I do agree that if a few Beavus and Butthead-type jokes had come up, it would be no big deal (I have a dirty mind, too), but man … it went overboard and quickly .
That said, tightening your anus muscles, when talking in generalities, generally means preparing for something. Or tightening them because you just got the ever living shit scared out of you. Get it? You are trying to keep that shit inside!
Marilove hit the nail right on the head, but I will add this. Even if I were to grant you for the sake of argument that “bracin’ mah anus” was a sexual phrase, that is still not “explicitly” inviting people to sexualize, objectify, and threaten her. I think you need to look up the definition of “explicit.”
Your comment also smacks of victim blaming. If she *just hadn’t posted* that, she wouldn’t have triggered the “cavalcade of comments,” right?? Sounds an awful lot like blaming rape victims for being raped because of the way they dress or talk.
One might brace their anus to keep from shitting themselves.
Yep, exactly, and I guarantee that that is exactly what she meant with that phrase. It has nothing to do with anal sex (generally).
And I actually thought about my butt muscles clenching this weekend, when I narrowly missed getting hit head-on (someone attempted to pass in a two-lane highway and severely missed judged, so much so that I had to swerve into the dirt to avoid the head-on collision. That shit was not cool, and I very nearly shat myself.) So that’s twice this weekend that this phrase, in its various forms, have come up. This is not an uncommon phrase, and I’m pretty confident in saying that the girl in question wasn’t talking about anal sex.
Frankly bracing one’s anus is typical response to seeing a tragedy such as a car wreck, or as when one time when I was flying around a curved road in my Honda Prelude, a sporty car, going much too fast, and my father told me this when the danger was over: “my asshole just shrunk up like a morning glory.” So, you could say that if you have ever seen the Morning Glory flowers, they shrink up at certain times of the day, and look like, yes you guessed it, an anus. Bracin’ one’s anus does not have to have anything to do with anal sex. Or sex at all for that matter. Being afraid or being startled will give the same response, your anus will tighten up, check it out sometime, and you may not have noticed when someone dies they often will crap all over themselves as they do not have control over the bowels or anus/or bladder, it is lost depending on their physical state. So, in a way, we are always Bracin’ ourselves activating anus muscles to keep from crapping ourselves and making a mess, for what may happen if we don’t, but she is just going a little further and stating it, that she is ready to cringe from highly negative critical comments about to happen.
I interpreted that bit of youthful slang as a reference to a tendency to soil one’s self in a scary event. She knows the world online and is preparing for the onslaught. Being young, she probably figures the benefit as of higher value than I, old fart, would.
Yep, that 15 year old girl totally stated that she was aware of the treatment women posters get, and was therefore asking for it. Right. Totally.
Do you have hobbies besides being willfully obtuse or part of the problem?
I took the comment as a sign that she was bracing for negative comments. Even if there had been an overtly sexual comment form Luman it wouldn’t excuse the vile abuse that was unleashed in the thread.
Shorter moralnihilist: Yeah, bitch totally was asking for it.
There was no excuse for the way that thread went. None.
Exactly. She was 15, for god’s sake.
And EVEN IF you want to see that one aside as an invitation to slut-shaming (it wasn’t, and if you think it was, you’re a douchenozzle), it STILL wouldn’t excuse the rampant,free-floating misogyny on the thread.
And if she had said “well fuck me”, would that have been sexual? Even though that is a well known phrase of exasperation, not sexual? Would she still have “explicitly invited it” then?
No, just as she didn’t here. Saying that she did is remarkably ignorant.
This is absolutely disgusting.
My heart goes out to Lunam. Please don’t let this discourage you from trying to engage and be present in the community. These kinds of things are awful, and hurt, I know, but it’s by not shutting up, and not letting them silence us, or reduce us to our bodies, that bit by bit we’ll change things for the better.
Though sadly I certainly can’t blame you if you wish to never deal with these creeps again. :(
I haven’t spent much time there, but almost every experience I’ve had there has taught me Reddit is a HORRIBLE place.
Reddit doesn’t make me hate atheists… it makes me hate humans.
“The next time you look around your atheist events and wonder where all the women are, think of this and know that there are at least some of us who aren’t willing to just accept this culture without trying to change it.”
I am so glad you added this, Rebecca, because it addresses an issue that’s been bothering me for quite some time. I appreciate you bringing disgraceful situations like r/atheism to our attention; what should we do to change it now that we know about it?
There’s no easy answers, but, a few basics…
Do your absolute best to listen when women approach you with concerns about this kind of thing, and as a first instinct, assume their concerns are legitimate rather than not. Err on the side of believing they have a valid complaint rather than giving the benefit of the doubt to whoever may claim she’s overreacting or whatever.
Be open to criticism, and work hard not to become defensive or hostile. Bringing issues of sexism to light is rarely meant as an attack on men, an accusation, or an assignment of blame. Sexism is a systemic problem, and a cognitive process we’re ALL susceptible to, not simply the byproduct of “sexists” and overt, institutionalized discrimination.
Do not permit gaslighting or the portrayal of women who do raise concerns as “drama queens” and “over-sensitive”.
Make clear, unambiguous statements that sexism, misogyny, sexual harassment, and bigotry are NOT acceptable within the community.
Prioritize the rights of women and minorities to feel safe and welcome over the “right” of privileged parties to use sexist, bigoted or abusive language. Inclusion of diverse backgrounds is more helpful to the free exchange of ideas within skepticism and atheism than the ability of some to use hostile, discriminatory language.
And finally, remember that it is never as simple as “a few bad apples”. Together, we all bear a communal responsibility to ensure that the behaviour and attitudes of the “bad apples” is not normalized or regarded as okay.
…
Heina wrote a really excellent article on this a few days ago… “Bring Your Girlfriends”: Or, How Not To Appeal To Women. Check it out! It’s really good. :)
Now the question is: How do we get this firmly implanted in people’s heads? The reason this happens on reddit is that fundamentally, our society IS still quite sexist, and reddit is a lightning rod for SexisNow the question is. How do we get this firmly implanted in people’s heads. The reason this happens on reddit is that fundamentally, our society IS still quite sexist, and reddit is a lightning rod for it because people can be anonymous.
So I pose the question to everyone here, how do we solve this?
One of my big thoughts is to focus on the youth. Promote equality of the sexes before people have firmed ignorant ideas in their head. Clearly it’s not the only battlefront, but I think creating childhood programs in and out of schools that focus on what true equality really means and how to promote it would do a lot to help the next generation see the ones that preceded it as ignorant fools.
I hear you asking dr. dr. professor and I’m thinking about it. I can’t give you a step by step program to end misogynist crap on the internet; I kind of think that everyone’s journey is marked by their individual experience and comfort level but having said that, I think I can give you some suggestions on what to explore next. Some of them might work for you.
You see the problem. You don’t want to try to unsee it. No really, this is a big step, i’m not patting you on the head. Misogyny is kind of invisible when you’re not the constant object of it (AND THAT IS NOT YOUR FAULT,) and some of the interpretations of a systemic, sexist, misogynist culture you might encounter from listening to women might seem exaggerated or strident or angry or far-fetched or …just uncomfortable.
Keep this in mind: We’re not making it up. No matter how outlandish it sounds, no matter how angry it sounds, we’re telling you what the world of women is like. And if it makes you sick, if it makes you uncomfortable, that just means that you actually have feelings. If it pisses you off, I’m glad it does. It pisses me off too, and I’m glad you feel the same.
But don’t waste time saying that you’re not like that or that most men don’t do things like that. That’s filed under “stuff we know already” and it got listed downcomment.
When you have heard enough – when you have learned enough of what it is we’re talking about when we talk about sexism, misogyny, the rape culture, and feel like you could explain it to someone else, well. You could waste your time speaking against it – but not to us. “Stuff we know already,” remember? But there are a lot of people who need to be told – other men. And the more men who speak out against this crap and call it what it is and don’t allow apologies or excuses for misogynist crap, the less socially acceptable it becomes.
It’s kind of an awful thing, but you’re a man and you have more social influence and more credibility than I do, because we live in a systemically sexist society. I speak out – I can be ignored as a shrill hysteric manhating lesbian, even if a dozen other women speak up to agree. But a dozen men calling it out? Much more social weight. I know. The very thing we want to smash. The irony, it is bitter.
But that’s my suggestion. As I said, some of it might work for you. If you’re thinking that you can’t dismantle this shit on your own, think of it as one more person taking up the work.
You should probably mod your boards, especially when this shit comes up… Like it is right now… About this very subject… Lead by example Beleth.
Wicked Combover, as I’m sure you’re aware, the discussion of this topic on the board I administer is taking place in the lightly-moderated section of the board. That’s by design. Topics are allowed there that aren’t allowed anywhere else on the board.
If a moderator’s intervention is what is needed, shouldn’t Reddit moderators be held to that standard as well?
Wow. Now I really want to sign up to reddit. Not.
Good luck Lunam, don’t let the morons get to you!
It will only get better if we do the work. I some day you can stand the stench, I encourage you to gird yourself in detachment and wade into that sewer, with a view to making it smell less foul.
Good point .
This whole episode just motivated me to start logging in to Reddit again so that I can upvote/downvote as appropriate.
I’d also like to add that aside from the single “bracin’ mah anus” comment and the thread that followed (which the OP shouldn’t have said but then again doesn’t excuse the other people who took it even further), these comments are disgusting. What’s even more disgusting is the silent approval given by the people who upvoted them.
Reminder to Reddit users: there is a “Report” link for every post. If you see something offensive like this, report it.
ahhh! reddit, a haven for stupidity, intolerance and general assholiness(yeah I made up my own word, deal with it) if you combine it with 4chan, you get a black hole of shitty behavior.
Sometimes I try to stand up for Redditors(redditors? really?… okay) and claim that they can say whatever they want it’s free speech after all, but when I read stuff like that the only thing I can feel is disgust. Yeah they have the right to say those things but should they, the answer is of course no. Besides, articles like yours ridiculing the statements they make is free speech too, it’s the kind that stands up for a 15 year old girl that’s being harassed by pervy internet trolls. I only wish there were more people on reddit who would do the same.
The problem is not with the free speech of the trolling asshats – the problem is the lack of speech and action by those who tolerate it.
The reply to the “black plague” post (with almost three times the upvotes):
“So what you’re saying is it would take her more than a lifetime to recover from how devastatingly bad it was?”
I really had no idea it was so bad and so widespread. Thank you, I guess, for opening my eyes. I have to wonder if these are jerks are even atheists or if they just troll around being disgusting and liking each others comments.
Have any of you been treated badly at an atheist conference? I have never attended an atheist conference, but this year I went to TAM, which was my very first skeptical conference, and I felt completely welcomed and accepted. Perhaps skeptics are more evolved. I truly think that Skepchick has helped educate the skeptical community. When I first started reading Skepchick, I didn’t understand the relevance of feminism to skepticism. Now I do.
It is not a problem restricted to atheists on the net, it’s endemic to online culture. It’s just disappointing when it seems to be popping up in a community which prides itself on rationality.
And yes, the trolls on that subreddit may not be atheists at all – but atheists are tolerating it and upvoting it…or playing apologist or trying to explain the interwebs to our girly brains in some cases. Which only compounds the problem and the pain…
And there are some heavily-upvoted rebuttals to these posts. Why didn’t you post any of the replies to GamerKiwi’s post, including the one with the list of 23 pictures of guys doing the same thing?
Wow. You really have a hard-on for reddit, don’t you?
Would you mind just getting up and off of Reddit? It will never change. Screw them, I say let them swim in their own filth anyway. Folks can do better who are not sexists, misogynists, or have no respect for others, I say let them swim there until they see the light. I am no one’s Mom or Dad, and I should not care about their behavior unless it impacts women negatively(or Men, but we know there is not exactly a real problem there anyway, not a big one as I see it). I could be wrong, but women are still getting a raw deal, and trying to change Reddit is matter of wasted time, I say find a blog that respects women and post there and raise the level of discourse up where it should be, and out of the Reddit gutters. CSICOP, Skeptic.com, American Atheist, secularhumanism.org and other sites are there and there are ways to branch off from there. Don’t waste time with the reform of a site that doesn’t want it at its core. Spend your time wisely.
OOPS! marilove, I’m sorry, I was Replying to moralnihilist just before you, sorry.
Yeah, Rebecca! Why didn’t you re-post the *entire* thread here for us to see! You have GOT to be hiding something! I mean, it’s not as if we can click a link and go look at it for ourselves…oh, wait…
I’m so confused why you’re trying to poke holes in Rebecca’s post. Are you trying to make her out to be some sort of villain who is misrepresenting misogyny?
It just pisses me off a little how all these anti-reddit posts NEVER include and give credit to the users who do see this behavior as inappropriate and at least acknowledge that not everybody is like this. I’m not saying this isn’t a major problem or that it’s defensible. I’m just tired of these “this ENTIRE WEBSITE AND EVERYONE ON IT SUCKS” type posts.
Except, she did mention that not everyone in Reddit is like this. Several times. She also linked to the reply. Of course, you didn’t really read the entire post, did you? You just saw someone rightfully criticizing Reddit, and then got super-defensive. Typical.
It’s very interesting that you get more upset at the possibility that many people have not had the rosy experiences with a website you like than you do about well-documented misogyny on it. Perhaps you should consider why your priorities are the way they are.
Very good point, Becca. It’s interesting that people get SO UPSET when the rampent misogyny at Reddit is pointed out, yet then just shrug off the misogyny by saying something like, “Eh, it’s the internet! It happens!” Or, “But not everyone is like that! STOMP!”
Excellent point, Becca. As marilove says below, these kinds of people (who get more upset about generalities that don’t even exist than they do about rampant misogyny) are most definitely part of the problem.
EXCEPT SHE DID! You’re just so determined for her to be wrong that you’re willfully refusing to see the part of her post that does exactly what you’re accusing her of not doing.
He gets far more upset when people criticizes Reddit and Reddit’s users (and it’s not like the stuff that’s being criticized is being made up; it’s right there, in black and white!) than he cares about how the women there are treated. Pretty typical, actually. They get upset when people (particularly women) complain about the rampent sexism, but they don’t get upset or even care about the rampent sexism. It’s pretty telling. These people are part of the problem, even if they aren’t directly involved.
I think of like this and nothing but “this ENTIRE REDDIT WEBSITE AND EVERYONE ON IT SUCKS.”
Actually, moralnihilist, I did link to the reply.
You did. I apologize.
These aren’t atheists, these aren’t males, they’re perverts and keep calling them out on it.
Stop letting sexist atheist men off. They are our problem.
Atheist, male, and pervert are not mutually exclusive categories. They *are* atheists, the *are* males, and you should stop giving atheist males a free pass as if they magically stopped being atheists or males when they engaged in this type of behavior.
I am biased surely, but religious perverts are far higher in number, please don’t blame their sense of perversion on being atheist. I say this due to the fact that there are higher numbers of theists than atheists. So, it stands to reason there are more religious perverts existing than there are atheist perverts. Atheists are actually more discriminated agsinst than any other group. So, there may be a blemish on a site that is supposedly made up of atheists, but really can anyone know how many are actually atheists, and not just trolls looking for sites to make trouble since they may have nothing better to do. Often the Israeli settlers will commit crimes and blame it on the Palestinians to turn folks more against the Palestinians, same here, maybe. So, please do not throw such a large blanket over nontheists.
Or, in the actually reality-based answer: Sexism and rape culture are everywhere, and thus yes, in religious and atheist groups equally. UNLESS atheist dudes feel like turning their skepticism on themselves and actually thinking about the bullshit nonsense they believe instead of back-patting themselves not not believing in Bigfoot.
Stop fucking letting sexist atheists off with this No True Scotsman bullshit.
It would take all of two seconds for each actual atheist in the subreddit to downvote & reply to these so-called “troll posts”. Instead they’re the top-ranked comments and the majority of replies are from dudebros slapping each other on the back. There are three possibilities here: there the non-atheist trolls VASTLY outnumber the atheists, the trolls ARE the atheists, or the trolls aren’t atheist but the atheists don’t mind that their community is deeply hostile towards women. As an atheist woman I see no functional difference between scenarios 2 and 3, and scenario 1 is so unlikely it’s laughable. IME it’s a mix of 2 and 3.
As for the oppression olympics game (“atheists are the most discriminated against”), that’s again pretty damn dubious and would vary by your location/situation anyway. Again, atheist woman, and if I had to pick between blipping out 100% of misogyny directed at me versus 100% of religious discrimination directed at me, I would pick the former in a heartbeat. Nobody’s ever threatened to rape me or break my nose because I’m an atheist. I’ve never been followed back to my car by a group of theists, all twice my size, while they loudly discuss how much they enjoy raping atheists together and hey isn’t that a tasty-looking one just over there. When I was 14 I wasn’t standing in a drugstore with two of my closest atheist friends as moral support while they bought pregnancy tests, and begging them to get tested for STDs, because they had been raped by adult theists who thought it was acceptable to treat atheists like human trash. The amount of harassment I’ve received for being atheist has been negligible compared to the amount I’ve received for being a woman. Keep in mind I live in a so-called “first world country” and I’m only talking about real-life discrimination — throw the cesspool that is Reddit et al into the mix and anti-atheist discrimination is only a rounding error.
It seems I only ever hear that atheists have it the worst from those who aren’t in any other minority groups, and I don’t think that’s a coincidence.
I can almost see moodydaniel’s point. These perverts are (almost certainly all) male, and (probably mostly, perhaps nearly all) atheists, but one hopes that these are irrelevancies, like their opposable thumbs and upright posture.
As an atheist, I, too, hope it wasn’t that quality that makes them vile perverts, lechers, and haters of young girls (and grown women).
But I see your counterpoints, too. We have a responsibility to clean our environment, and as atheists, and in my case a male and redditor, r/atheism is like my front yard. I will leave shortly to try to get some of these persons shamed and/or banned.
Ugh, I’m sorry but I’m looking at this thread and it’s making me even more pissed off. Here’s a comment that just drove me up the wall:
NukeThePope (_) 70 points 2 days ago* (226|164)
Allow us old men the small luxury of fawning over you. It’s really… exciting when a (presumably) clever and friendly mind comes in such a pretty package. You are the girlfriend most of us would love to have.
It’s not that we don’t take you seriously as an atheist/scientist/whatever. It’s that people who are knowledgeable about this stuff are a dime a dozen but people who are both knowledgeable and hot looking are much rarer.
Meanwhile, while everybody’s (figuratively) climbing all over you, is your mother already doing anything tonight?? ;)
EDIT: To the horde of assholes who choose to be offended at this comment, please take note: At the time I wrote this it wasn’t yet known that she’s 15. I’d guessed her to be between 17 and 21. No, I don’t want a 15 year old girlfriend, and my own personal standards of “young girl” are meanwhile at age 30. But I don’t think I’m wrong in saying that many Redditors, if she turned out to be legal, would be only too happy to have a pretty girlfriend like her. If you have a problem with that statement, then fuck you.
—–
I love the “who chose to be offended” part. Yes that’s right, It’s MY fault I’m offended because I CHOSE to feel that way, just like how I CHOOSE to be offended by racists so therefore there must be nothing wrong with it. Here’s my response:
Even if she weren’t 15, what the fuck does her being attractive have to do with the subject of the thread? Why the fuck does that even have to come up in the conversation? Do I need new glasses because I’m pretty sure she was trying to have a discussion about the book she got and not how she looks.
Have you ever considered the fact that maybe there aren’t so many “clever and friendly minds in such a pretty package” because every time you see one people in the community collectively “Deeeeerppp ohhh yer so puurrrrrty!” gush over her looks? Seriously, you’re whole tone is like “oh yeah yeah of course you’re smart and whatever, BUT OMIGOSH YOU’RE SO GOOD LOOKING!!!!”
Seriously. The fact that /r/atheism cares so fucking much whether or not women include their face in more pic posts than men just makes me embarrassed to be a part of this community.
This is mostly non sequitur, but I am just now struck by an incongruity. You express outrage, here and in several other comments, and your name is “moralnihilist”.
But yes, NukeThePope is quite an oblivious, self-excusing idiot.
What does my username have to do with anything?
It just mismatches your ideas. It’s like you were named “Steaklover” and were promoting vegetarianism. Perfectly acceptable, but amusing to me.
I really hope that most of the comments were not from atheists, but as we all know too well, crotchery comes in all forms, shapes, sizes and no one is immune to it. I almost want to join reddit just so I can tell her we’re not all like that. :(
On the chance that she sees this thread: Enjoy the book, Lunam, it’s wonderful. I read it earlier this year for the first time. And please don’t let the reddit crowd discourage you.
Consider this an upvote for your 2nd paragraph.
While decrying the nasties out there, let’s not forget to encourage those dealing with it.
Go, Lunam! Enjoy the book. I read it almost a year ago, time to break it out again.
Go Rebeccah! Keep up the good work.
I just read the book a fifth time last summer and enjoyed it as I did when I read it when I first got it in 1998. Yes, enjoyed the book and take to heart the oodles of examples of pseudoscience presented, I also have the original Parade Magazine newspaper insert, by Carl Sagan, called, “Why We Need to Understand Science,” that told the story of his driver, William F Buckley, who thought he was enagaged in science talking about non science stuff, in the article, then, of course it was about how bad it is that kids know so little about science today(that was in September 10, 1989)which is the same story in The Demon Haunted World(published in 1996), book in the 1st chapter.
Ugh. That’s my dose of internet rage for the day. :/ I wish combating this type of bullshit wasn’t so rage-inducing and soul-sapping. I’d love to spend all day down-voting this kind of bullshit, but I don’t like the toxicity that I have to deal with to do it. More power to those who can & do, but I have enough internet-induced rage to deal with without the cesspool of reddit threads as well.
…sooooooo true…so while we deal with this shit IRL…we should spend the rest of our waking hours cleaning up what others refuse to…that sounds fair!
I like to think that as we move beyond religious dogma and bronze age thinking we’ll become more enlightened, more accepting, more intelligent and that will show in our attitudes to one another.
Then someone shows me atheists on reddit and I become sad.
I remember seeing that post but I didn’t look at the comments, probably because there was nothing that needed to be said. I’ve been losing lots of hope that one day people like that will be shouted down by a more tolerant society…
Can I rant something here?
Last night I came to work and a female co-worker told me that an hour before I arrived someone asked for her phone number and got angry and called her a bitch when she wouldn’t give it.
When I woke up this morning I checked facebook and learned my sister was almost ran off the road in the middle of no where last night by some creepy guy. We don’t know why exactly yet but I’m really glad she’s ok (and got his plate number).
It’s an hour since I found (2) out, I came here and read this.
This kind of thing shouldn’t be happening, I’m upset and I wish this kind of alienation upset more people, but for some reason society thinks it’s ok. My girlfriends shouldn’t all have a creepy story about some empathetical jerkass , but they do! And it pisses me off.
I’m far from defending the comments above. I think it sucks a lot out of the quality of community that exists in the subreddit. That being said (and it may have been mentioned, but I might have missed it), but this subreddit has been recently added to the list of default subscriptions I believe. What that means, for people that don’t use Reddit, is that everyone get’s subscribed to that subreddit by default, which will bring in a lot of comments and posts now that are of a significantly lesser quality of comments within it. This includes these kinds of shitty comments. It’s a fact of any anonymous web community that there are people out there that will post things like this, but from my experience it has been a vast minority. I realize the author had tried to make this point, but it seems to have been quickly brushed aside by some of the commenters here, and I think they may have gotten the wrong idea.
Reddit has some shitty parts to it, but it also has some really great parts. the Atheism subreddit has done some amazing things for charity in many forms, including organizing hundreds of thousands of dollars* in donations to various charities over the last couple years alone, in addition to moral and emotional support to people within it’s community.
Coming from someone who unfortunately sees a lot of this kind of anonymous hate speech on the internet, I would be willing to guess that a substantial amount of the people behind these offensive posts are not “grown men” as the author has put, but more likely, immature teens. As the site itself seems to be taken over by high-school age children, see above comment about /r/atheism being a default subreddit.
TL;DR Yes there are some jerks on the internet. They post terrible things that are offensive, and it sucks that they take away from our experience and community, but Reddit and the Atheism community are getting painted with a very wide brush here. People who do not partake in the Reddit atheism subreddit seem to have the wrong idea of the community as a whole.
* Couldn’t find actual figures, but I know someone must have it.
” I would be willing to guess that a substantial amount of the people behind these offensive posts are not “grown men” as the author has put, but more likely, immature teens.”
That is demonstrably incorrect. You don’t even need to go into their posting histories . . . teens are not talking about having jeans older than a 15-year old girl. Teens are not saying they’d fuck her if they weren’t so old. Teens are not talking about laughing so hard their office mates noticed. Teens are not saying they’re in their 50s but would definitely have sex with her if she was 18.
It really doesn’t take much effort to see that these are adults, but even if they were teens – does that make it better that this is the future of the atheist community?
You’re right a lot of them probably aren’t, and the point is not really necessary. It doesn’t matter if they are teens or grown men, it is a much larger social issue within anonymous internet communities. A large number of people take anonymous as a right to post things as offensive as possible in any forum, be it 4chan, Reddit, XBox Live, Omegle, Chat Roulette, etc.
The actions really do upset me, especially within the atheism subreddit. With this subreddit part of the default subscriptions, it’s an unfortunate reality of the system. The community is exposed to people that did not go looking to become members, like it used to be, and as a result, the community is damaged.
It seems a shame to create an article with an important message and title it in a manner that makes athiests look bad, when in reality, a significant group of people within it are not necessarily atheist to begin with.
Instead of defending your atheist identity – how about actively defending that space along with women who have an atheist identity?
It is not about you…but you could be doing something about it.
My atheism buy the way, came directly out of my experience AS a female. The messages I got in church were intolerably oppressive to me as a woman. I would hope that strong allies are capable of making this space the “atheist/skeptic/rationalist/freethinking community safe for other young women seeking to escape one oppressive culture (religion) to land smack dab in the middle of another oppressive culture – online forums.
If it it rationalized and tolerated by the rationalist community…. Where are we to go?
I’m with you, though you did not actually state this explicitly, it is not just a “minority” that are bad but most people are “good.” That is a false religious argument that there is good in all of us. That said, they stand with themselves and are not the problem, we have to go after the far too many people who are comfortable seeing women in only a few ways, who are misogynistic and poison the discourse and engage in sexism when they are with their buddies and they encourage each other to stay that way. Misogyny and sexism is a mindset that is based in the Judaism/Christian views that women are to be subservient to men as men are with god. Until we get the basics right it’ll never change and it may sound cut and dried but hitting back with the same force of intent to keep things as they are is necessary in order to change that mindset. It is cultural and more which means it can be changed. Jeanette Rankin, the first Congresswoman elected one time before women even had suffrage, in 1916, and then she was again elected in 1940, said of women, “We’re half the people; we should be half the Congress.” Maybe true representation will happen with a 50-50 Congress women to men ratio. I’m sure the assaults on women’s rights this year would be different if there were more women deciding the laws. So, to with women in the Congress it will perhaps elevate the cultural status as well, let’s hope that it happens before that has to be done.
For women to get the vote, an entire male Congress had to vote for it to happen, and there was a fight in the states to ratify the Nineteenth Amendment, but the fight for it started in the late 1700s as the country was being founded, so make no mistake what we as a society are, in order to change the culture fighting back under extreme duress by certain males, going to have to do to change the status quo. A society with no sexism, no misogyny, and without the subtle games played that force women to accept things as they are can happen, it can happen but it requires a price be paid. Let’s hope it will not be a Pyrrhic victory in order for women to be seen equally and justifiably so.
Rebecca only included things that were up-voted by the rest of the community. It’s not like these were just some random people who made some gross comments and were forgotten. They were up-voted, and up-voted by a good chunk of the regulars. So your points really don’t stand.
That’s an important point. I still think the atheism subreddit is generally positive, and exposes/helps more than people have the chance to post hateful things like this.
Unfortunately, I also think the community as a whole has become very damaged by adding as a default subreddit, which brings in a whole slew of people that are not looking to become part of the community, and with that, some good from exposure, but also a lot of bad in the form of just terrible people.
Maybe generally positive for you, a man. But what about women? Most women I know stay far away from Reddit, because when a woman posts on Reddit, and makes it clear they are a woman, they are most assuredly going to get harassed. This is a really great example, and it’s not like it’s rare.
I only read Louis CK and Neil deGrasse Tyson’s AMA posts on Reddit, but even then I felt a bit weird and creeped out, because I knew if I made a post and it was obvious I was a woman, I’d get a slew of harassment. I generally avoid Reddit, and a lot of women I know do as well.
Well, I can’t attest to that, as you have figured out from my avatar, that I am a man. I think we are agreeing with each other in some form.
This was a pretty nasty thing and am ashamed it came from a place I somewhat frequent. But it’s also worth mentioning that probably 98% of my use of Reddit has not been posting comment/links, but observing and reading. I guess that makes me a “lurker” but I hope this doesn’t discourage too many people from potentially being exposed to some good information. For instance, I had never been to this site before, and am now looking through it (although not the introduction I would have hoped for).
Wow, Louis CK and Neil deGrasse Tyson posts somewhere om Reddit? I must remove my blanket statement from all to just most on Reddit are vile creatures now. Seems incongruent, but I’m sure they raise the level of discourse by doing so, it just seems surprising cuz’ they are like an oasis.
I recall a story by Neil DeGrasse Tysomn about him as a high schooler where Carl Sagan wined and dined him as a possible new student at Cornell, and how amazed he was that Sagan gave him so much of his time and made him feel just so important, and from then on Sagan became a mentor for Neil deGrasse Tyson. I listen to him give lectures and he really comes off as someone a lot like Sagan in explaining to laypersons about Astronomy and Cosmology, and science in general, really.
Here’s an exercise…create a 15 year old girl avi with a cute picture and spend the next two weeks on the net trying to participate in debates…Be sure to dress and act like a 15 year old girl.
I think the problem is — and this has already been addressed several times in these comments — is that whenever the issues of Reddit or other harassment online is brought up, people automatically say things like this:
“It’s the internet! What do you expect?”
“Oh, they aren’t all like that!” Etc.
It brushes off the very real problem. It makes it seem it’s not such a big deal because, “Oh, it’s just the internet, and hey, there are some good guys there!”
So what’s the solution to the problem?
It’s clearly societal, because I think a lot of people in our society think in a sexist manner and reddit just allows it to flow like water.
Not sure what is to be done about it. Thoughts?
First of all, people need to stop brushing these complaints off, and saying things like, “Oh, it’s just the internet!” Or, “Get thicker skin!” or similar. That would be a good start. Or how about people stop getting all defensive when their precious Reddit is criticized? That would help, too.
And, hey, treating women as humans and not sexual objects, that’d be a good start too.
While I know people do say that, that’s not what I’m trying to say. I’m trying to say that it’s a larger social issue with the internet. It deserves attention, but it is a macro issue observed on the micro scale. To say this group of people are terrible because some people posted some shitty things is important to discuss, but focusing on a specific forum is like focusing on the branch of a substantial weed. The weed definitely needs to be addressed, but it would do us all good to stop trying to cut a branch or leaf off and start focusing on the root.
I think “deviladv” put it more clearly with “Reddit doesn’t make me hate atheists… it makes me hate humans.”
Basically, (trying not to sound like a defender of Reddit) I feel like this is a people problem, not a Reddit/Atheist problem. If she had posted this in /r/pics (another subreddit) I would expect similar problems. Anonymous speech on this scale is still is still relatively new to us, and I’m really hoping that we as a global society can regain the empathy that we have lost over the years, and curb this kind of behavior.
//First of all, people need to stop brushing these complaints off, and saying things like, “Oh, it’s just the internet!” Or, “Get thicker skin!” or similar.//
Agreed
//And, hey, treating women as humans and not sexual objects, that’d be a good start too.//
Yes, and this requires a fundamental change in society’s thought process. Question is, HOW do we make that change?
Also try not to explain what “the real problem is” or the “macro” or whatever.
We know there is sexism everywhere. We know how it affects us personally, we know how it affects us professionally. We see how it affects our kids (our boys and our girls)…
When we say there is a problem and this is an aspect of it….PLEASE don’t tell us we don’t understand the problem well enough.
“Yes, and this requires a fundamental change in society’s thought process. Question is, HOW do we make that change?”
We change the behavior first, not the thoughts, which means communities need to make it clear that harassing/bigoted behavior is not acceptable. Preferably this includes actual moderation, which would piss off those Reddit addicts who still really believe that votes are enough to ensure comment quality and that they should have the right to harass people to their hearts’ content. I don’t think any honest person can deny that sites which depend on votes for their “moderation” see the discussion quality tank once the site gets popular. See slashdot, digg, and now reddit. Whether or not the mods get their act together, posters need to call out and downvote bigotry and harassment when they see it.
There are a few benefits to going after the behavior before the thoughts. First, communities like /r/atheism will give off a less hostile vibe, which means more women will feel comfortable there. Secondly, people of all stripes won’t have to wade through shit to find actual discussion. Thirdly, young or otherwise-impressionable people won’t be egging each other on to be as shitty as they can possibly manage, which is going to affect how they think and how they behave elsewhere.
Of course I don’t really expect to see any of this happen on Reddit. I honestly don’t believe that the majority wants change. Most seem to enjoy harassment and bigotry, if not as perpetrators then as spectators (hence the upvotes). Part of the problem is that Reddit is just not designed to be anything other than a mob-rule cesspool. Majority rules, minorities drool; it’s built right into the voting system.
And another point: soiranfaster commented down-thread and has said that he/she tries to make a point to speak out against this kind of crap, and he/she is — unsurprisingly– down-voted because of it.
Reddit isn’t exactly a comfy place for women. It is, however, a great place for sexist assholes. Sure, sure, there may be a few good guys, but the assholes are way, way, way louder and more prominent, and I, as a woman, would rather avoid that kind of crap.
This is a similar argument that people use to defend various organized religions. Ignore the bad things the church does because it does some good things too. Different orders of magnitude, but the same argument.
Charity work is great, more people should do it, but it doesn’t mean you can get a criticism-free pass.
Really you should be trying to increase the good and get rid of the bad altogether. And part of that is criticizing the stupid s&*t people do/say.
“I’m far from defending the comments above… That being said…”
No defensible statement ever starts this way.