Warning: this is long and rambling and goes nowhere.
A few weeks ago, I tweeted a screenshot of this email I received from one “C. C. Velvet” (sure):
You know in The Social Network, where Zuckerbergs girlfriend tells him that “you will go through life thinking that girls don’t like you because you’re a tech geek. I want you to know, from the bottom of my heart, that that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re an asshole.”?
Similar goes for you. Rebecca, you will go through life thinking that men don’t like you because your a woman. I want you to know from the bottom of my heart, that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re a cunt.
The email amused me because of how easily it shows its bias to anyone who isn’t a raging misogynist. Imagine: “You will go through life thinking that white people don’t like you because your (sic) black. I want you to know from the bottom of my heart, that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re a n****r.” Or try Jew/k**e, or gay/f*g, or any combination of oppressed group and word used to shame, demean, and dehumanize a member of that group. The result is the same: sad irony.
Someone Tweeted to ask if I get emails like that often, and I had to laugh. Ever since the incident that shall not be named, I get these emails several times a week. But more than that, I’ve now amassed a following of obsessive creeps who have seemingly devoted their lives to hounding me down and making sure I never dare to speak my bitch mind again. Their tactics? Scientologist-level private investigation to dredge up the deepest, darkest mysteries of my past combined with grade school-level name-calling. It’s impressive, really. Really. Really.
For months, I’ve been ignoring these people with varying amounts of success. I read all my emails, which means I see these people sending me links to their posts, apparently proud of their work. They post their angry rants on Reddit, where I happen upon them while browsing stupid cat gifs. They post poorly-formed insults on my Facebook page(s). Well-meaning friends even send me some links, worried that these people will take their obsession to the next level.
Some friends have encouraged me to write about it in the hopes of exposing this idiocy and protecting myself in case someone does actually try something. I’ve put it off, because diving into that pool of bitter bile isn’t good for my mental well-being. When I write about something – particularly something depressing – I like to have a call to action, or a lesson of some sort. A story arc. But after thinking this over for weeks, all I have is this: there are some truly terrible people out there, who define themselves by their hatred. Worse, these people aren’t the “others” that we might wish. They aren’t David Mabus, a crazed Christian holed away in Canada sending bizarre threats all day. They aren’t adolescent trolls who will grow out of it. These are “normal” adults, with jobs and families. They attend skeptic and atheist events. They probably have the ability to read and think and be compassionate, but they choose not to.
Here are a few examples of what they choose to do instead:
Abbie Smith at ERV was, as far as I could tell, the first to actively encourage people to replace intelligent discussion and inquiry with blind hatred and bile. That’s where the name “Rebeccunt Twatson” apparently arose – see? Impressive! If you listen hard enough, you can hear the ghost of Ambrose Bierce chuckling and nodding his head in approval.
Then there’s a blog called Grey Lining written by someone named Franc Hoggle. Apparently nearly every post is now about me. Lucky me! He focuses on the really important things, like how I made a YouTube video recently in which I mistakenly said that Galileo was executed by the Church. Within minutes, I updated the video to flag the fact that I was wrong, but that doesn’t matter. Hoggle says that I must be “dumber than dog shit” and suggests I be taunted for the rest of my days. How dare anyone ever get anything wrong and then immediately correct it! The ghost of Mark Twain gives the thumbs up.
My favorite of Hoggle’s posts is the one in which he says that I’m an honest-to-Jesus criminal who should be arrested because maybe four years ago the JREF forum mistakenly gave me moderator powers and so I made a post joking about using them to ban a friend. I also edited replies to that post to say things like “…and Rebecca is the greatest” and suspended someone who said he wanted to be suspended. I’m not going to lie, it was pretty god damn funny, but it’s true: please call the Internet police and arrest me right now.
Hoggle has also investigated whether or not I have a science degree, by finding a MySpace page I forgot about years ago. He could have just asked me, or read/listened to any interview I’ve given in the past six years in which I’m asked about my background. The short story is that I have a bachelor’s degree in communication from Boston University (it’s a BS, which differs from most schools that offer a BA in comm) and that from high school through college I had relatively little serious interest in science. It was magic (and magicians like James Randi) that got me into science, and mostly everything I know about science I learn from reading on my own as opposed to formal education. I’ve never pretended to be a scientist or have any formal training as one. In my haters’ view, though, it’s more like this: I got a science degree that was namby pamby liberal arts and therefore inferior and why did I even bother going to college and I should never speak of science again because who would dare speak of science without a formal education in science? Besides James Randi. And Carl Zimmer. And 3 out of 4 of the male SGU hosts. And well let’s just move on.
Next up is a guy who equivocates my disagreement with Dawkins to child abuse, and he even uses graphic pictures of abused children to prove his point (trigger warning, obviously). He apparently made an Encylcopedia Dramatica page about me and how ugly/slutty I am and encouraged people to “Tweet bomb” me (I guess no one took him up on the suggestion). He also tried to start a meme using a photo of me. My favorite was something along the lines of, “Asks not to be propositioned….wears low-cut dress.” Yep. I was asking for it, boys! If only I’d learn my lesson and wear a hijab when in public.
Then there’s this elevatorgate blog, in which a man attempts to convince my fellow SGU co-hosts to kick me off the podcast. I learned of this one from Steve Novella, who emailed it to me with the subject line “Another stalker”. Again, every post on this blog appears to be about me and what a bitch I am. He posts videos saying that I’m so ugly I should feel thankful that men proposition me against my stated wishes, and videos calling me mentally ill and a cunt (this appears to be the favorite insult – I wonder why) including one popular video from The Amazing Atheist, a YouTuber who is, I guess, trying to be Lewis Black but without the comedy. The blogger even posts videos from women who have criticized me, pointing out that they are “actually attractive.” Yep, no issues there.
I think Steve discovered that blog because that person was one of the ones derailing this SkepticBlog post about the SGU 24-hour podcast. That’s right: a quick, simple, upbeat post from Steve publicizing our 24-hour show was quickly turned into a whine-fest from people demanding Steve “fire” me from the show. To support their argument, they linked to the above blogs because they seriously believed that it would convince others. As you can see in the thread if you dare to dig through it, they were not successful.
And those are just a few of the blogs I’ve seen. There’s a hate subReddit someone tried and failed to get going, there are the thousands of YouTube comments threatening and harassing me daily, there are the Tweets and the Facebook messages that make little to no sense, like this one from just last night:
These are people who desperately want to insult me, but have neither the wit nor the intelligence to do it properly. Mentioning that I have a vagina? Drawing attention to the fact that I started Boston Skeptics, something I’m very proud of? Ignorantly suggesting that I left a group of men in charge in spite of the fact that Liz Gaston, Maggie McPhee, and Mary Brock are all very capable people who happen to be women? It’s pathetic. That same Facebook user flagged me in another comment wondering why I hadn’t responded to her, as though I owe her the same ridiculous amount of attention that she has apparently spent on me. I hope this response suffices.
So yes, these people can continue to crow about how great it is that I’m no longer in the same city as the successful skeptics’ group I started. Similarly, they can continue to pretend that my college education is a tawdry secret, and I will continue to be proud of it. I was the first person in my family to graduate from college, and I worked 40 hours a week at the magic shop to afford it (along with the money for my freshman year that my parents gave me, which my dad made a point of reminding me of last week – love you guys! Wait I told you not to read this).
And similarly, they can continue to call me a cunt. After all, they derive so much joy from it, and to me it only makes things clearer. “Cunt” is what misogynists call outspoken women with contrary opinions, in an attempt to silence them.
That’s what this is really about: silencing. No one starts an entire site like the “elevatorgate” blog in the hopes of having a debate. No one comes up with a nickname using a word like cunt because he wants to resolve differences. No one tells a woman she would be lucky to get raped because he wants to offer solid evidence to contradict her point that misogyny is just as bad amongst skeptics and atheists as it is elsewhere.
The question is this: will their silencing tactics work? I honestly don’t know. I’m a competitive person, and so all my life my response to someone telling me to stop talking has been to talk more. But for the past few months, I’ve definitely been talking less because I find it far more enjoyable to play video games than to deal with these people in any way. This is not a call for more support, as you have all been very giving with your encouragement. Instead, I suppose it’s just a documentation of what my online life has been like for the past few months, though it’s only the tip of the iceberg as I tend to delete the links to a lot of the really awful things.
I honestly can’t think of a way to even end this post. People are terrible. I’m going to go play video games for awhile.
Featured photo courtesy of cupcake_eater which is on Flickr, CC BY-NC-ND 2.0.
All I can say is please try to keep up the good work. It is appreciated. Don’t let the bastards grind you down. http://youtu.be/pSo-_TavE1U
Congratulations on your blossoming misanthropy!
:D
I think I probably speak for most of rational people when I say: Don’t let them win. Please? I’ll make you cupcakes. They might not be very good, I don’t know, I’ve never made cupcakes before, and getting them to the states will be a bit of a hassle, but I WILL do it.
In all seriousness, it always shocks me to be exposed to the fact that people can be so utterly nasty to others. I am perhaps not the most sensitive, sweet person in the world, but I never intentionally say things just to hurt someone else. The idea that one might do so baffles me to the point of my brain blanking out completely, and makes me incapable of reacting to a blog post like this with anything but cupcakes.
Laurie Anderson (or was it Frank Zappa? – hell, it was definitely one or the other) once said “If your music doesn’t clear out a room once in a while, you’re not maximizing your talents.”
A similar aphorism also applies to writing. A few fools are going to vent their deepest, most-repressed insecurities upon those who dare to express an opinion that asks society to take a step forward.
It’s just a shame that it usually takes 100 positive responses to emotionally counterweigh each of these jagoffs (that’s the consequence of actually caring about your essays). Although, the obvious question about said jagoffs – how great can their life truly be if they are relegated to something as pathetic as on-line bullying to serve as an enriching experience?
Acrobat, bastards, grind you down, Bono, etc.
If Felicia can’t get cupcakes to you, I will be happy to make some for you. Do you like blueberry cupcakes? Just remember there are those of us who appreciate you and admire you – and absofuckinlutely can’t believe the shitstorm that arose from a simple comment on behavior.
I am here, on this website, because I read about what happened at the conference, your response, and the backlash – and that introduced me to your writing. I am finding my skeptical voice because I have begun to read what you put out for us. I am stronger with my new found voice. I am proof that the haters aren’t winning. Thank you Rebecca.
This is something that I’ve been trying to consider before getting too heavily into blogging, myself. The internet is a cruel place at times and though I don’t expect any grand fame, incidences like these as reported by a few female bloggers I follow is very disheartening.
Still, you make a point that their goal isn’t to be reasonable or even to have a civil dialogue on the points of divergence. They don’t care that it’s okay to disagree and there is a way in which you can go about it in a rational manner that is still respectful (I don’t always agree with the things I see on Skepchick, but it’s certainly not the end of the world).
So really, why bother catering to the fringes? There’s still a vast sea of moderate, thoughtful, and decent people to engage with. It’s sad that these people spend so much of their time obsessing over one person with one contrary viewpoint – imagine if they spent their time blogging about what they believe, researching something interesting, or trying to actually contribute new content to the atheist/skeptic community rather than trying to slander someone.
I should also add that the whole Elevatorgate issue is what finally pushed me to become a feminist. I started out on the other side of the issue, and as I read through the comments, it occurred to me that something wasn’t quite right. I followed the links that other feminists supplied to some of the denser participants and as I read, found that a lot of it began to click.
I’m hardly an expert on feminist topics now, but it took seeing how people reacted to the incident (telling you they hope you get raped? Really?) to really bring it home for me.
So basically, in short, fuck the haters.
I met you once at TAM 8, (tentacle felt vagina) and I want to say that you have been a huge inspiration to me. Your humor and fortitude have basically kept me in the skeptical movement when all hope seemed lost.
The kind of B.S. you (and other female writers) receive for the egregious act of writing/speaking have definitely kept me from taking up a more active role on the internet. It just seems so disparaging. I am in awe that you continue to do it, and I don’t want you to stop. But in the end, you need to do what’s right for you.
“Similar goes for you. Rebecca, you will go through life thinking that men don’t like you because your a woman. I want you to know from the bottom of my heart, that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re a cunt.”
Well that’s just not true. This heart is for you, and you alone: ?
The absolutely ridiculous thing is that Adrienne Myers posted this 1hr 10mins after that embedded quote:
“Stop using a person or party’s true identity against them. It will only make them more proud to be that, and shittier to deal with. Attack their ideas and they have nowhere to go.”
It’s pretty obvious that there is no room for reason here. I don’t think “ironic” is strong enough of a word.
I’m going to go take my 20-year-old white male privileges elsewhere, and go watch Day[9] play videogames.
You hit the nail on the head. The abuse is meant to silence you. They’re trying to intimidate you into speaking out less, participating less, eventually to the point where you just stop showing up at skeptical events and decide it’s not worth your trouble.
But I encourage you to keep doing what you’re doing. Keep publicizing this abuse, because people need to know just how bad it is. The next time someone suggests there isn’t a problem with misogyny in the skeptical movement, one can point to the mountain of hate mail that you’ve received for the crime of speaking your mind.
Please don’t give in to the haters. We need people like you to stand up for equality. I know it’s not much, but these brownies always help me feel better.
Completely agree and hooray for brownies. Keep kicking over the rocks, and documenting it all. The deeply unsettling, dark side of reality.
Last weekend after an incident where someone felt that they had to speak with me, and it required reinforcements, including an armed security officer, an observer commented: If the establishment feels threatened into over-reaction, you must be doing something right. The comment did much for my calm, so I am paying it forward.
They are scared, you are doing the right thing. Smile, wave, it makes them feel smaller.
+1 to the “If this is the response you get, you must be doing something right.”
That, and there are apparently a lot of people in this world that need to also play more video games if they have so much time on their hands for this sort of response.
Can’t we all get along, and put all these people in one big game of Team Fortress?
Haters gonna hate.
What pushed me to the limit and made me (finally) register to comment today is that you are receiving attacks from women. How can people be so terrible? Anyway, I know this wasn’t a call for support but whatever, I’m a fan!
It’s really easy for women to hate on other women because they think it will get them a pat on the head from the men. They sell out others to show that they are the “good” women, not like those nasty dirty cunts who dare disagree with teh menz.
Sadly, this doesn’t make them seem any better or improve the situation for women within the group since all it does is show the men that women are exactly how they think they are and it means that women (or other diverse groups) are now less likely to join because they see that they won’t get any support.
It also strokes their desire to be thought of as independent, when in fact what they are doing is advocating utter conformity. “See, I’m not like those monolithic, groupthinking feminists! I support the patriarchy! I’m a rebel!”
I hope that you can take heart in the fact that for every man you’ve pissed off by waving his privilege in his face, there are probably many of us who used to think that feminists were just making a big deal out of nothing, and have learned better from you.
Thanks for doing what you do, Rebecca, and for continuing to be consistently awesome.
Keep the faith, Rebecca (er, I mean keep to a rational interpretation of the available evidence).
You could start a ‘hate mail corner’ where you publish the worst offenders along with their full email/ IP address. A statement that anyone who makes a direct threat against you will be reported to the authorities may also help. Also, all ISPs and social networking sites have a security dept where you can report people breaching their terms of service.
Also, “the two prominent (male) skeptics who are currently charged by actual governmental authorities with fraud and identity theft” – anyone we know?
You’re opinionated, successful and female. You’re fearless and took on Dawkins, a man some dogmatic atheists have idolised. You’re attractive and have called guys out for inappropriate advances. In short, you scare a lot of sexually inadequate men because your everything they want and everything they’re unlikely to get; no wonder they liken you to a lady garden.
Keep talking, keep communicating, keep fighting so dicks like me can see the world from a more “cunty” (I use the word in awe of all its feminine glory) perspective. There maybe friction occasionally but that’s not always a bad thing.
Dicks and cunts are wonderful people, I’m sorry you’ve been subjected to so many arseholes. Team America said all this so much better…
Wow…
I remember back when you first joined SGU and I thought you were a bit sharp and sarcastic sometimes. However, over time, you’ve earned my respect and I’ve come to see the occasional sarcastic edge as just a element of your sense of humor. You like to poke at people a little, but you don’t mean anything by it.
We met once at Dragoncon a few years back. I was surprised as how unassuming you were in person. You have a certain “face” you wear when you are blogging online that is absent in a social situation. It was refreshing to see that side of you.
While I don’t agree (or agree completely) with everything you say, I respect your right to say it and I give a lot of weight to your opinions because I think they are usually well thought out.
I couldn’t face the blind criticism and hatred you are dealing with. I’d run and change my name and probably never touch the interwebz again.
Thanks for being strong enough to deal with it. Please don’t give in to these jerks.
Please don’t let these people silence you; if you do that, then they’ll win. I understand that sometimes it’s easier to play portal 2, but what you are doing is so important. Before I started posting & reading here, I always considered myself to be a feminist, but didn’t see the relevance of feminism in here & now (outside of the glass ceiling that seems to cap women’s wages vs men). Now I realize that feminism is still incredibly relevant, and that’s mostly thanks to you & skepchicks.
I know you’re not asking for anything, but is there anything that the community can do that can make you less of a solitary target?
Also: good on you for naming & shaming. These people should be ashamed of themselves. It’s especially disappointing to see some women up there saying some truly awful, awful things.
There’s a lot of pressure to fit in with science’s and the skeptic community’s boy’s club. It’s unfortunate, but it seems like those women require men to validate their opinions on such matters — even if they’re other otherwise intelligent, progressive and independent-thinking.
I am
Spartacus!Rebecca Watson!:D
Frankly I’m appalled that some jack off took a superbly crafted line by Aaron Sorkin and basically shat all over it to try (and fail) to make a point. It’s not even funny!
I commented on one of your earlier posts on this topic, and managed to do so badly enough that I conveyed almost the opposite of my intended meaning, so I’m going to keep this as simple as possible:
Your commentary and point of view, everywhere I’ve seen and heard it, has been interesting and valuable to me. I understand (oh, do I ever understand) the ease of shooting pixellated zombies vs dealing with the world, but I hope it doesn’t come to that.
This (along with a handful of other recent incidents closer to home) has all been one hell of an eye-opener, compounded by the dismaying realization that I didn’t even know my eyes were closed in the first place.
As a feminist (a male one, not that my gender should matter), married to a feminist, I had been trying to get my wife more interested in skepticism for about a year before the above referenced incident occurred.
I explained what happened, showed her the original video and thanks to this whole kerfuffle, she’s been listening to SGU and now wants to go to TAM. I hope that you will continue to stay involved and simply ignore the assholes. Try to keep in mind the fact that you’ll remember the hits and that even though it may appear that there are a lot of assholes out there, there are a lot MORE non-assholes. We’re just not very vocal. Hell, I’ve been lurking on Skepchick for a LONG time now and only now did I feel the desire to actually register and comment.
I hope you continue speaking your mind and talking about whatever you want. I will listen and read. I will also understand if you wanted to take a break or do something else. Because I know that I couldn’t take what you’ve endured at all, much less with such (outward) good humor and grace.
Sorry you have to deal with these horrible people. I don’t think I’d bother to read all my emails if I were you. It’s really disgusting that these people apparently think of themselves as rational thinkers, while displaying such an obvious and irrational lack of self awareness about their misogyny and general lack of decency…
Keep up the good work. I was at our local sceptical meeting in Liverpool, UK a couple of weeks ago, and saw large numbers of women attending. A very non-scientfic headcount had female attendees at about 40%, so something is definately working.
I know the UK and US sceptical groups have different problems, that might boil down to apathy vs. liberterianism repsectively, but getting more people involved, and more importantly, welcomed for their opinions and thought, rather than any physical characteristics is key.
You’ve ripped the bandage of a rather unpleasant boil that really needed treatment. The rotten smell, drippy awfulness and screams of anguish are a sign that the problem is at least being dealt with now. Hopefully it’ll dry up and cure itself over time with the application of a bit of air. /horribleanalogy
I kind of love that analogy, actually! It’s wonderfully gross and visceral, and the idea of all the icky misogynist hate blogs/e-mails/posts as the pus finally draining out of an abscess is spot on. And so so so gross! Brilliant!
Yes. Great analogy.
Rebecca,
I have always enjoyed your contributions to the SGU. I have been following you on Twitter for a while and read this post today. After doing such, I felt compelled to create this account to tell you that I hope my 9 year old daughter turns out like you did. Smart, strong and not afraid to speak her mind. If more women were like you, the world would be a better place.
Just my two cents.
– Mike R
It’s amazing how difficult it is for someone who thinks they’re the epitome of rational thought to realise that ganging up on someone is monkey emotion behaviour. Or how many who realise it and still don’t give a fuck because acting like bullies makes them feel good.
It’s a pity that ignoring assholish behaviour doesn’t have as powerful an effect on the perpetrators as hitting them with a hammer would have.
Rebecca,
Over the last year, I’ve listened to all 300+ SGU podcasts. I haven’t had time to participate in the SGU forums, and I think I’ve only read a total of 3 skepchick blog entries.
As one of the literally hundreds of thousands of people who enjoy what you bring to the podcast, I would like to express my appreciation and gratitude. You’re smart, funny, and beautiful – inside and out.
I know that rationally you realize these griefers contribute nothing and should be ignored, especially since they’re full of crap.
I also realize that as a human being, it’s got to be an emotionally draining experience for you, and that upsets my sense of justice.
I can offer you nothing other than this brief comment to tell you I am truly grateful to you for sharing your mind with the world. I’m a better person for it. I’d be diminished if you were silenced.
Rob
Hey Rebecca –
Too often its only the haters that are vocal, and the vast majority of sane, supportive people don’t bother to speak up.
So, SUPPORT SUPPORT SUPPORT!!!! You have mine.
Rebecca — Let me see if I’ve got the hang of this … Since you used the word equivocate incorrectly in your posting, clearly we can ignore everything else you have to say! You should be taunted for the rest of this comment! Just kidding. Satire. Please keep up the great work, and don’t let the stalkers win.
The few comments from haters that you’ve shared here and previously make me ill. The internet can bring out the worst in some people.
I was reminded of a legal case I gave a deposition for years ago. After one of my female employees broke up with her long-time boyfriend, he made a website featuring intimate photos of her and lot of vile insults similar to the ones you receive. Ultimately she lost her defamation lawsuit because the judge didn’t consider a website to be a public space (this was pre-Google). I’m still stunned by that, and have to wonder if the decision would have gone the other way if the genders were swapped.
It really sucks you’re getting such a hard time over all this BS. Please don’t let them keep you quiet! For what it’s worth, being at the live SGU and (briefly) meeting you at the booth were the highlight of Dragon*Con for me. So many of us look up to you, but I get that you don’t really require more support and encouragement…so please feel free to keep playing video games. Video games are awesome.
It’s hard to know what to say to something like this. To me, it’s obvious that you’re in the right, but wishing that you didn’t have to go through all this bullshit is obviously futile.
The best I can do, right now, is this:
I will continue to call out prejudicial behavior when I see it.
I will continue to swallow my pride and seriously consider any accusations of prejudice made against me.
If I could claim friendship to you, I would say that you have my care and support as a friend, but given that we’ve never met, I’ll go with: You have my care and support as an anonymous blog reader. Hang in there, keep writing, and keep shining.
It’s kind of ironic that you missed the point of the original email you quoted and went straight for the tried-and-true “MISOGYNIST!!!” attack. Would you have played the same card if he had said “Jerk” or “Asshole” or “Dick” instead of dropping the C bomb?
His/her point is quite relevant; Many people dislike you NOT because you’re a woman, not because you speak your mind, and not because you’re intelligent. They dislike your personality or how you handle yourself or whatever reason people choose to not like/dislike someone. However, you always immediately jump to your misogynist finger pointing the minute anyone says anything negative about you, especially if they use a term associated with females (bitch, etc.)
Many times people will use specific terms to describe someone while communicating with/against them but not like/dislike them just because of that “status.” If I call a guy who cuts me off on the highway a dickheaded son of a bitch, I’m not slamming him BECAUSE he’s a man; I’m just using those terms because he’s a guy. If someone who is overweight makes me mad, I may call them a fat bastard; I don’t dislike them or look down on them because they are overweight (PS: I’m a fatty so if anyone wants to continue the trend of ad hominem attacks that should give you something to work with. I’d be willing to bet I have more than a few grammar mistakes as well.)
Just assuming someone is a misogynist just because they use gender specific terms is asinine and an easy out. It allows you to duck out of actual discussion by labeling someone as an illogical sexist who would just refute everything you say just because you are a woman. It’s especially amusing when you slam women for it… but of course, they could just be brain-washed misogynists, right? You’ve become the zealot in so many books and movies; anyone who disagrees with you on certain topics or says certain things is automatically is labelled a heretic… NON-BELIEVER!!!
Now, these people who are sending you threatening emails, running web sites solely about you, writing about you extensively, etc., are F’d up, no question. I and I’d assume many like me who are not partial to you would agree that this kind of thing, ESPECIALLY the death/rape threats, are grossly out of line. Hell, I even defended you on someone’s blog who, instead of attacking things you said, made personal attacks which were grossly inappropriate.
However, dont’ throw the baby out with the bath water. You can’t just lump the fringe loons with people who have honest disagreements with how you have handled recent situations which are not to be named. Unfortunately, your community (it isn’t just you) has taken the shotgun approach and blasted almost everyone who doesn’t wave the Rebecca flag as a woman-hater. Yes, there are people out there who are going to dislike you just because you are female, and that can’t be helped (other than ignoring the ignorant.) However, when you start dragging innocent people to be burned at the stake as well just because they disagree then you have a problem. What’s worse is that I don’t think you realize that is what has been happening.
This was too long. :/
You’re right, that was way too long. And also way too stupid. Look, misogyny doesn’t have to exist in a vacuum. When you call a guy who cut you off while driving a dickhead, then you’re right, that likely doesn’t carry misandrist undertones. But if you criticize a woman, especially if that woman is currently embroiled in a controversy that is centered in questions sexism, and use the word “cunt,” then you better believe that has misogynistic connotations. Otherwise, why not just say “asshole”?
Clearly he wanted to have an impact and he knew which word to use to do so. That’s misogyny 101.
It’s fine if you don’t like Rebecca’s personality. No one has to like everyone. But it’s worth examining why you might find her personality off-putting.
Thanks for starting off your post the intellectual way- personal attacks. Seems par for the course since this “skeptic debate” has started.
So now misogyny means using gender specific terms just to get a rise out of someone? Sorry, but changing definitions around to suit your needs doesn’t work. Misogyny is hating/disliking/looking down on women just for being women. Trying to stretch and pull this definition to fit any kind of attack which is gender specific isn’t going to cut it just because it’s convenient for painting people who disagree with a vile brush, regardless of the situation surrounding it.
I realize (and am not surprised by) what you are implying when you say I should re-evaluate why I don’t like her. The truth is that I actually did like her when I started listening to SGU. However, over time, there were facets of her personality that I found grating and “The Event” and her reactions to it made me lose most of my respect for her.
“So now misogyny means using gender specific terms just to get a rise out of someone?”
Nobody said that. Using the insult “cunt” can be an indication of misogyny. That’s what they were trying to explain to you. Not that it’s the only thing that can indicate misogyny. But it’s great that you are being so dismissive by claiming they are saying something they clearly aren’t.
“Sorry, but changing definitions around to suit your needs doesn’t work. Misogyny is hating/disliking/looking down on women just for being women.”
First of all, no one was trying to change any definitions, but rather explaining to you that using insults like “cunt” are part of the definition of misogyny — but, once again, great job at trying to be dismissive and claim that they were saying something they clearly weren’t!
Insults like “cunt” and “bitch” have been used to bring down out-spoken women for centuries. They are used because people tend to dislike women who are outspoken or don’t “fall in line” with the way society seems to think women should.
Women are a marginalized group of people. Insults that refer back to a marginalized group exist for a reason: To silence that marginalized group of people. White men are not a marginalized group, so male-gendered insults don’t hold the same power.
The same thing goes with the “N-word” vs. “Cracker”: Both are insults, but the “N-word” holds far more power because of its history in regards to a highly marginalized group of people.
“Nobody said that.”
“Clearly he wanted to have an impact and he knew which word to use to do so. That’s misogyny 101.”
I’d say it’s easy to interpret that from what Pax said.
“Insults like “cunt” and “bitch” have been used to bring down out-spoken women for centuries. They are used because people tend to dislike women who are outspoken or don’t “fall in line” with the way society seems to think women should.”
They’ve been used for lots of reasons, not just those. Let’s not pretend that these were insults specifically created to keep women quiet and “in-line.” They were used to insult women that the person didn’t like, no matter the cause.
I understand what you’re saying in that using those terms could indicate someone is a misogynist and are probably commonly used by someone who is; yes, I’ve been to the cesspool that is The Spearhead to see it first hand. We’re getting off the topic of my original post, but my point on this specific topic is (and, if I’m reading your response right, you agree) that using those terms by itself doesn’t indicate that one is a sexist.
Part of my larger point is related to of one of her intro paragraphs. She indicates that you MUST be a misogynist if you don’t see his statement as itself sexist when it isn’t and, ironically, that was his/her point. To paraphrase, the email author said “Lots of people may not like you and you dismiss it as being because you are a women, but it’s actually because you’re an ass.” She turns right around and says “See! You have to be a misogynist to see this as anything but attack on me as a woman!” She tries to compare the use of the C-word to using N-Word or gay in the same context and that, to be nice, is an incredible stretch. When one uses the N-word, it indicates that they dislike them BECAUSE they are black, or that being such is a negative attribute. Using the C-word doesn’t do that; it’s basically the (extreme) female version of asshole or dickhead in pretty much all cases I’ve heard it used, even by women.
I agree with you that negative terms for groups which have been historically marginalized hold more weight than anything against whites or males. However, to say that they were used to silence those people is an over simplification of their use. In short, lets not over dramatize the use of these terms as some grand scheme by people to silence those that disagree with them, though I have no doubt some of the nutters who are actively threatening her and the like would like to do that.
““Clearly he wanted to have an impact and he knew which word to use to do so. That’s misogyny 101.”
I’d say it’s easy to interpret that from what Pax said.”
Um, you keep saying that they are “trying to change the definition of misogyny” but that’s what what they are doing. You’re putting that spin on it yourself, bud. No one said, “Using gendered insults IS THE definition of misogyny!” yet you keep trying to claim that’s what they said.
“They were used to insult women that the person didn’t like, no matter the cause.”
You really don’t know much about the history of women and misogyny, do you? Do you know why Hillary Clinton is called a bitch or a cunt? Sure, it’s because people don’t like her, but generally they don’t like her because she is an outspoken woman.
Think of it this way: Insults like “cunt” and “bitch” and “pussy” are generally used for BOTH sexes. Not just for women. Why? Because the default thought is “women are bad!” THAT is why such gendered insults are very, very loaded and generally indicative of misogyny.
“Similar goes for you. Rebecca, you will go through life thinking that men don’t like you because your a woman. I want you to know from the bottom of my heart, that won’t be true. It’ll be because you’re a cunt.”
And I really doubt that this person said that just because they *just* dislike Rebecca. Do you honestly think that? Because the larger picture indicates it’s much, much more than that. Why would someone take the time to send such an email if they just simply didn’t like her? Why not just ignore her and move on?
All she said was that men hitting on women in an elevator at 4am is creepy. Yet people suddenly hundreds of people just “dislike” her because of that?? No, they “dislike” her because she dared speak up about how society and men in general tend to treat and think of women. They “dislike” her because she’s an outspoken woman.
I can’t help it if you said something stupid. You said something stupid. It was stupid.
And then I carried on with my argument.
“Thanks for starting off your post the intellectual way- personal attacks. Seems par for the course since this “skeptic debate” has started.”
I find it hilarious that the one whose post’s entire second paragraph was one long personal attack is so quick to point fingers when such is turned back around. Bricks, glass houses, you get the drill.
Dude, this is not hard.
“Cunt” is a misogynist insult in exactly the way that “nigger” is a racist insult. Its offense is rooted in the idea that being female is bad and shameful. You are trying to argue that it is not.
Seriously, why are you trying so hard to defend the guy who called Rebecca a cunt? Did you write the original email or something?
Cool mansplaination, bro.
I also use gender specific insults when I’m pissed, so I’m with you there. But, this –
“However, when you start dragging innocent people to be burned at the stake as well just because they disagree then you have a problem. What’s worse is that I don’t think you realize that is what has been happening.” is not happening here in this post. She has only referred to the crazy, hateful, and violent people who have been harassing her over a very reasonable request. I think that the regular people who disagreed with her comments concerning the elevator incident have stopped focusing on it.
“However, when you start dragging innocent people to be burned at the stake as well just because they disagree then you have a problem.” -jarlaxle
Who in Spam’s Name are you talking about? What innocent person has been dragged through mud? Certainly not any of the people listed above who are carrying on this sustained hatefest against Rebecca Watson!
Oh, excuse me. What innocent person has been DRAGGED TO THE STAKE TO BE BURNED? That fucking ridiculous embellishment on your part is representative of part of the whole problem: people like YOU, jarlaxle, are blowing this thing way out of proportion.
You mean like Dawkins? The “community” was ready to label him as a sexist and boycott his books after making some poorly thought out comments on a Blog, even after all he’s done for atheism, skepticism, and, yes, women’s rights.
Outside of that, if you didn’t see other people being rabidly labeled as misogynists then you weren’t paying attention during the whole ordeal. Especially on this site and a few like it, pretty much anyone, no matter how they worded their argument against Rebecca’s position, was immediately accused of being a woman hater. Hell, look at my post. The very first reply is someone making personal attacks and insinuating that (shocker) maybe I just don’t like her because she’s a woman. It’s sadly amusing because my initial post mention this problem of suggesting anyone who wasn’t on Team Watson was anti-female and the FIRST REPLY suggests that I might just be anti-female.
“You mean like Dawkins? The “community” was ready to label him as a sexist and boycott his books after making some poorly thought out comments on a Blog, even after all he’s done for atheism, skepticism, and, yes, women’s rights.”
He completely and utterly dismissed women and their experiences. Twice. He had a chance to say, “You know … I made some poorly thought-out comments. I’m sorry.” But he never did that. Instead, he made yet MORE comments completely dismissing the experiences of women everywhere. And they weren’t poorly thought out: That’s likely how he actually feels, considering he did it at least twice.
And just because someone has done a lot of good doesn’t mean they are somehow immune to criticism. If nothing else, he should fucking know better! We shouldn’t just ignore his problematic comments just ‘cuz he’s Dawkins. That would put him high on a pedestal. He is human, and therefore imperfect, and we shouldn’t pretend otherwise, just because he’s a pretty smart guy that’s done some pretty cool things.
And Rebecca said several times that she was not trying to organize a boycott. But people have a right not to buy or listen to people who they feel don’t represent them. I, as a woman who deals with discrimination every single fucking day, have a right to choose who to give my money and time to. I probably won’t boycott Dawkins, but I do not have a problem with individuals who do. And if they do boycott him, it’s no one’s fault but Dawkins, who is the one who made those incredibly sexist, dismissive comments.
I don’t think you’re anti-women, but I do think you don’t have much of an understanding of what women have to deal with every day, and of sexism in general.
“He completely and utterly dismissed women and their experiences. Twice”
I don’t want to turn this into an Elevatorgate discussion, but in short, if that’s what you took from his postings, I think you misinterpreted what he was saying. I will say he 1) should have done a better job of it and 2) should have worked with Rebecca to clear up the mess in private. That gum chewing analogy should also never been made either as it was terribly incompatible with Rebecca’s situation.
I’m also didn’t say he was above criticism. However, he should be criticized fairly. Was he overly harsh? I think so. Was he dismissing the experiences everywhere? Absolutely not, especially considering one of the specific examples he used in his tirade.
I doubt we’ll agree, so I’ll just end by saying I think both sides handled the situation poorly.
“And Rebecca said several times that she was not trying to organize a boycott.”
No, she’s not organizing one, but let’s be honest with ourselves here. If you are a person with a good sized following and you say “I’m not saying you guys should boycott, but I am…” you know what you are implying. Do you honestly believe she posted that not thinking others were going to hop on the bandwagon too? If she truly didn’t want to encourage this, she would have silently boycotted.
“And, seriously, Dawkins was never burned at the stake and I doubt his reputation as a whole is somehow going to be harmed because of this, and I also doubt that he’s suddenly going to be put into the poor house.”
I’m sure he’ll be fine, but that’s beside the point entirely. He was wrongly labeled a misogynist (again, despite speaking out repeatedly against the wrongs perpetrated against women worldwide.) I don’t care if he’s a multi-billionaire with super powers or if he’s an average, broke Joe. Attack the things he actually said and is, not some grossly overblown mischaracterization.
“Like Dawkins, the people who were quickly labeled misogynists and MRAs and sexists also earned that. It didn’t come out of nowhere”
Uh, no. Again, if you were reading the various forums and what not, any site that was mostly Pro-Rebecca ripped apart anyone who did not take her side and automatically said that they were sexists who “Just don’t get it.” All arguments were ignored while the above was simply repeated over and over. Yes, you had your trolls who came in and were telling her to get back into the kitchen or whatever but there were plenty of rational, logical arguments against her. However, the points were almost always ignored as the person was repeatedly called a misogynist (even if they were a woman) or “No, you just don’t GET it!!” I’m not saying Rebecca did this herself frequently but she did repeatedly call people out, often, IMO, unfairly, such as the person she spoke about on stage (sorry, I looked, can’t find her name/the video now.)
“As for the response to you in this thread, it doesn’t appear that you were told you didn’t like her because she is a woman. ”
-> “It’s fine if you don’t like Rebecca’s personality. No one has to like everyone. But it’s worth examining why you might find her personality off-putting.”
What do you think s/he is implying here?
And, seriously, Dawkins was never burned at the stake and I doubt his reputation as a whole is somehow going to be harmed because of this, and I also doubt that he’s suddenly going to be put into the poor house. Pretty sure Dawkins of all people can handle himself.
The reply functionality is really odd here…
Anyway, watch this + the 2nd video. Please tell me how this is misogynist who hates women or is anti-women in any way.
First off, jarlaxle, I suppose this is your admission that no innocent people are being burned on any stakes, metaphorically or not. Dawkins was not “innocent” at all. He earned the response he received in that case just as he has earned all the gratitude, respect, and profit he gets from atheists around the globe.
Like Dawkins, the people who were quickly labeled misogynists and MRAs and sexists also earned that. It didn’t come out of nowhere. No, those people practically stamped it on their foreheads and then did a little dance around the room showing it off.
As for the response to you in this thread, it doesn’t appear that you were told you didn’t like her because she is a woman. I’m not sure where you imagined seeing that written. The word “you” doesn’t always mean “you yourself” and it did not mean that in this case as far as I can tell, so I do not find the response to your post in support of your argument here, either. You have not been burned on a stake! FFS.
Richard Dawkins didn’t just act inappropriately. He told a commentariat full of rape victims (over at Pharyngula) all Rebecca Watson had to do was push the stop button and she would have been safe therefore everyone should shut up about it.
That was beyond inappropriate. That was the kind of bullshit you hear from rape apologist every day and he deserved to get chastised for it.
“When one uses the N-word, it indicates that they dislike them BECAUSE they are black, or that being such is a negative attribute. ”
How do you know that? No really. How exactly do you draw a distinction between nigger meaning you dislike someone because they are black and cunt not meaning you dislike someone because they are a vagina? I’m very curios.
At my High School I came across several students who liked to use black as an insult the way you would gay. When pressed on it they invariably either told you to not be sensitive or that they meant ‘bad black’ as opposed to ‘good black.’ Was that not racist? Were they not using racist language and fostering an atmosphere antagonistic towards blacks?
Okay, I have a question- do you have evidence of Richard Dawkins attacking sexism outside of religion, specifically within one of the groups with which he identifies? Like within skeptic groups? Or maybe something that exists within the more secular culture? Or within the hard sciences, which are a bastion of essentialism as compared to some other academic disciplines? Maybe him taking down some evo-psych bullshit? Something?
Because if the answer is no,(or rarely) and he relates all sexism/misogyny to religion, he’s done nothing for women’s rights. He’s not a feminist, he’s just displaying in-group/out-group bias. Oh hey- that’s what religions do too! Huh!
Jarlaxle, you are doing it again. No one was “ripped apart”. Numerous people disagreed with some things that Rebecca said or did without calling her epithets or putting her down. Dawkins was not one of tho