In a moment I’ll be liveblogging our next chat session, this time about catcalling and whether it’s creepy or a compliment. The inspiration was this CNN article.
Keep reading for more!
+++
Created on 2008-05-18 14:13:27.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:00:09
- Ladies!
- Tracy King: 13:00:51
- word up
- Jill Powell: 13:00:55
- Hello!
- Donna Druchunas: 13:01:05
- Hi!
- Rebecca Watson: 13:01:21
- I’ve added everyone I saw online, but if anyone sees someone I missed go ahead and add them
- Rebecca Watson: 13:02:24
- Hm, does anyone know bug_girl’s screen name?
- Tracy King: 13:03:15
- nope
- Donna Druchunas: 13:03:19
- not I
- Jill Powell: 13:03:23
- me neither
- Rebecca Watson: 13:06:07
- okay, I’ve searched and can’t find bug . . . Maria said she’d be around but I’m not showing her as online.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:06:35
- So, we can just get started now or wait a few minutes more . . .
- Tracy King: 13:07:09
- I’m only really half here
- Rebecca Watson: 13:07:32
- oh sure, because you have “work” to do
- Jill Powell: 13:07:46
- yeah where are your priorities Tracy?
- Tracy King: 13:07:46
- :(
- Rebecca Watson: 13:07:54
- don’t you love us?
- Tracy King: 13:08:01
- not even slightly
- Rebecca Watson: 13:08:13
- (emo)
- Tracy King: 13:08:18
- (devil)
- Jill Powell: 13:08:34
- well, that makes things a tad awkward then :P
- Tracy King: 13:08:53
- yeah, I feel bad about using you all for sex
- Donna Druchunas: 13:09:28
- From Maria via email: I am five mins away
- Rebecca Watson: 13:10:29
- cool….
- Rebecca Watson: 13:10:41
- the good news is that I think I found a nicer way to post the chat transcript to the blog
- Rebecca Watson: 13:10:54
- the bad news is that Teek doesn’t love us.
- Jill Powell: 13:11:15
- she’s broken this Skepchick’s heart for the last time
- Tracy King: 13:11:48
- you always say that
- Tracy King: 13:11:52
- but you always come back
- Jill Powell: 13:12:04
- its true, I can’t stay away for long
- Tracy King: 13:13:43
- 8-)
- Rebecca Watson: 13:14:08
- Hm, ok my engenius way of posting the chat has effed up the site layout.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:14:12
- I am brilliant.
- Tracy King: 13:14:18
- Ha ha you broke the internet
- Jill Powell: 13:14:22
- tsk tsk
- Rebecca Watson: 13:14:24
- suck it, King.
- Tracy King: 13:14:33
- I can’t, the end fell off
- Donna Druchunas: 13:14:35
- The site looks the same from here
- Maria Walters: 13:15:09
- sorry sorry i’m late
- Maria Walters: 13:15:16
- longest mani pedi EVER
- Rebecca Watson: 13:15:24
- Ha! How appropriate
- Maria Walters: 13:15:26
- :)
- Rebecca Watson: 13:15:41
- Did your new look get any catcalls on your way?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:15:48
- (see how I got it started right there?)
- Maria Walters: 13:15:52
- ha!
- Maria Walters: 13:15:53
- alas, no
- Maria Walters: 13:16:02
- and i have a hot new henna tatoo as well
- Maria Walters: 13:16:04
- but nothing
- Rebecca Watson: 13:16:10
- What’s the ocassion?
- Maria Walters: 13:16:26
- no occasion, really. i went to the ren fest yestrerday
- Maria Walters: 13:16:38
- a co-worker of my hubby’s got married tehre. awesome
- Rebecca Watson: 13:16:46
- ah, cool
- Donna Druchunas: 13:16:51
- sounds like fun
- Maria Walters: 13:16:58
- it was
- Rebecca Watson: 13:17:19
- so, what do you all think of the whole catcalling thing? I found that article a bit disturbing
- Maria Walters: 13:17:27
- the article was disturbing
- Rebecca Watson: 13:17:29
- on both sides
- Maria Walters: 13:17:33
- yes
- Donna Druchunas: 13:17:43
- I just skimmed the article. Do I lose points?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:17:48
- yes.
- Jill Powell: 13:17:49
- major points
- Maria Walters: 13:17:53
- i think catcalling is slightly creepy
- Maria Walters: 13:17:59
- but mostly harmless
- Jill Powell: 13:18:02
- I’ve never really experienced it
- Donna Druchunas: 13:18:06
- I just think it’s rude. I hope that doesn’t make me one of the old farts I was complaining about last week.
- Maria Walters: 13:18:16
- i think the whole dude touching himself thing was super creepy
- Rebecca Watson: 13:18:16
- I’ll catch you up, Donna: one side calls it street abuse, and the other side gets self-worth from it.
- Tracy King: 13:18:33
- it depends on the context
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:18:40
- Sorry I’m late
- Donna Druchunas: 13:18:41
- touching yourself is not catcalling…
- Jill Powell: 13:18:50
- yeah that should be done in private
- Maria Walters: 13:18:57
- yes, please :)
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:19:00
- Don’t forget those that just ignore it
- Tracy King: 13:19:01
- When I was a teenager, I would get upset if I didn’t get comments when passing a group of guys or a construction site
- Donna Druchunas: 13:19:18
- Did you all read that story a few weeks ago about the guy who was masturbating in a woman’s hair while she was sleeping on an airplane?
- Jill Powell: 13:19:25
- what???
- Maria Walters: 13:19:27
- EWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW
- Rebecca Watson: 13:19:27
- EW!
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:19:28
- I think it has to do with culture, as well
- Rebecca Watson: 13:19:29
- WTF
- Tracy King: 13:19:33
- It did validate the three hours I spent on my makeup and hair, in the those days
- Tracy King: 13:19:35
- Ew, that’s gross
- Tracy King: 13:19:40
- but also great
- Maria Walters: 13:19:42
- that is seriously frakked up
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:19:53
- For example, in Spain, it had to be explained to me that men stare (and do not look away when you make eye contact) and that, if they don’t, it’s an insult
- Tracy King: 13:20:00
- yeah, but as an anecdote, it’s a corker :D
- Maria Walters: 13:20:15
- yes, there is definitely a cultural element
- Tracy King: 13:20:18
- Yes, there are cultural differences
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:20:19
- But in the US, that is rude
- Donna Druchunas: 13:20:19
- I wonder if catcalling is just an East Coast thing in the US.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:20:32
- I think in the US there are big differences between regions
- Maria Walters: 13:20:33
- i got more stares and comments in India than i do in the US
- Donna Druchunas: 13:20:34
- well, I think the masturbating in someone’s hair thing is rude anywhere.
- Tracy King: 13:20:37
- I got catcalled by a hobo the other day :(
- Donna Druchunas: 13:20:47
- I don’t remember any catcalling since I moved to the California & Colorado.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:20:51
- I got hit on in public a lot more in Boston than in Seattle
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:20:52
- Catcalling definitely happens in Spain. Spanish men will actually make kissing noises at you.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:20:52
- yeah
- Jill Powell: 13:20:55
- i think masturbating in someone’s hair crosses the line a tad
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:21:04
- (Not sure who finds that appealing…)
- Tracy King: 13:21:11
- what about using a toupee to get yourself off?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:21:13
- I got comments from guys in Paris, too . . . like, lewd stuff.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:21:16
- lol @ Jill
- Donna Druchunas: 13:21:20
- But I remember a lot of it (catcalling, not hair masturbation) when I lived in NY and Tennessee.
- Tracy King: 13:21:31
- “that’s not YOUR toupee, it’s MY merkin!”
- Maria Walters: 13:21:40
- well, it also depends on the city – all i ever do is drive, so it’s not like i have much opportunity to get catcalls becuase i hardly ever walk in the city
- Jill Powell: 13:22:03
- I listen to my ipod when I walk so if it ever happens, I rarely hear it
- Maria Walters: 13:22:13
- now there is an equivalent which is catcalling in cars
- Maria Walters: 13:22:24
- i get that in the summer, if i have the top down (on my car)
- Donna Druchunas: 13:22:38
- Maria, that’s because your car is topless.
- Maria Walters: 13:22:45
- presumably i would get it if i had my other top down too
- Jill Powell: 13:22:58
- yeah but that’s a different topic altogether
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:23:08
- I think that calling catcalling “street abuse” shows the trend of entitlement to be completely comfortable 100% of the time.
- Maria Walters: 13:23:09
- true
- Rebecca Watson: 13:23:20
- good point
- Maria Walters: 13:23:27
- calling it street abuse is stupid, i agree
- Donna Druchunas: 13:23:32
- I think people have become over sensitive to EVERYTHING in the last couple of decades?
- Jill Powell: 13:23:37
- definitely
- Maria Walters: 13:23:43
- you dont have any right to control what people do on the street,
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:23:53
- There are always going to be people that are offensive, and learning to deal with them constructively builds character.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:24:02
- If they’re posing a true threat, that is different.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:24:12
- I don’t remember ever feeling threatened by catcalling.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:24:18
- yeah, it’s a fine line
- Jill Powell: 13:24:18
- yes, as long as they don’t get into your personal space
- Rebecca Watson: 13:24:25
- I did feel very threatened in Paris
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:24:40
- Most catcalling is done from a distance, in broad daylight, in the presence of others.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:24:43
- Are the men more aggressive there than in the US, do you think?
- Jill Powell: 13:24:43
- yeah a friend of mine said the same thing about being in Paris
- Maria Walters: 13:24:43
- it can be concerning, if you are alone or it’s late, quiet street
- Rebecca Watson: 13:24:45
- but that was due to not knowing the language very well, plus the night before I was nearly assaulted by a man on the street.
- Tracy King: 13:24:51
- paris is bad for it
- Rebecca Watson: 13:24:52
- and yes, I was alone both times
- Jill Powell: 13:24:56
- yikes
- Donna Druchunas: 13:24:59
- My experience matches Stacey’s (broad daylight, at a distance, etc.)
- Tracy King: 13:25:02
- but I enjoy it as long as it’s not nasty
- Tracy King: 13:25:11
- a wolfwhistle is a compliment, to me
- Maria Walters: 13:25:13
- but nasty is subjective, too
- Rebecca Watson: 13:25:17
- true
- Donna Druchunas: 13:25:18
- I’ve only been in Paris with mr writerdd so….
- Tracy King: 13:25:19
- “get yer tits out” is not
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:25:29
- The same behavior could be threatening if done after dark, when you’re alone, when there are no people around…
- Jen Myers: 13:25:29
- I’ll admit the first catcall I got after I had my daughter was kind of nice. Mothering a newborn doesn’t offer a lot of oppportunies to feel particularly sexy.
- Maria Walters: 13:25:29
- fair enough
- Rebecca Watson: 13:25:35
- there have been guys that left me smiling ear to ear just for saying something off-hand as they walk by
- Rebecca Watson: 13:25:40
- and others that made me want to punch them
- Rebecca Watson: 13:25:50
- I’m sure the latter thought they were just as charming as the former
- Maria Walters: 13:25:51
- i would agree with that
- Donna Druchunas: 13:25:52
- You can always reply with “go fuck yourself, asshole” ….
- Rebecca Watson: 13:25:58
- and I have
- Rebecca Watson: 13:26:00
- heh
- Tracy King: 13:26:00
- We could be accused of wanting our cake and eating it, I suppose. To which my answer is generally “and?”
- Maria Walters: 13:26:18
- what is the point of having cake if you cant eat it?
- Jill Powell: 13:26:25
- thats jut torture
- Donna Druchunas: 13:26:26
- Why don’t women hoot when sexy guys walk by?
- Tracy King: 13:26:27
- Because I think most guys know the difference between fun and lewd, too
- Tracy King: 13:26:47
- That was the answer to my cake question, btw
- Maria Walters: 13:26:52
- i’ve been known to stop and stare when a hot guy walks by
- Tracy King: 13:26:54
- as to why women don’t hoot…
- Rebecca Watson: 13:26:55
- yeah, have any of you ever catcalled a dude?
- Donna Druchunas: 13:27:00
- Sometimes I think it’s best to just give it back, see what they feel like.
- Tracy King: 13:27:01
- oh yes
- Rebecca Watson: 13:27:05
- really? ha
- Jill Powell: 13:27:06
- no..only inside my head
- Tracy King: 13:27:14
- When I’ve been with a bunch of college mates
- Jen Myers: 13:27:14
- I haven’t catcalled a dude, but I’ve been with friends who have.
- Maria Walters: 13:27:15
- i also once bet a friend to bounce a penny off a dude’s ass in a bar
- Donna Druchunas: 13:27:23
- ahhahah
- Maria Walters: 13:27:24
- and we all catcalled him when she did it
- Tracy King: 13:27:25
- you get bold in groups. Not now, I’m 32, it would be hideous
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:27:31
- I don’t know if I’d recommend giving it back unless you’re for real
- Rebecca Watson: 13:27:44
- I suppose that’s a good point to keep in mind
- Maria Walters: 13:27:53
- yes, you get bold in groups and with alcohol
- Rebecca Watson: 13:27:55
- the guys who do it are probably ready to go should you take them up on the offer
- Tracy King: 13:27:58
- I got followed home once, when I was 13
- Maria Walters: 13:28:03
- yikes
- Rebecca Watson: 13:28:03
- eek
- Jill Powell: 13:28:08
- scary
- Donna Druchunas: 13:28:10
- do you need a black belt in karate just to whistle at a hot guy, if you’re not actually making a proposition?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:28:11
- what happened?
- Tracy King: 13:28:16
- He squeezed my bum and said “will you go out with me, you’re sexy”
- Tracy King: 13:28:25
- I said “no I have Latin homework”
- Rebecca Watson: 13:28:26
- holy crap
- Jill Powell: 13:28:28
- whoa—no touchy!
- Maria Walters: 13:28:29
- ugh
- Tracy King: 13:28:30
- and then he left, thank goodness
- Donna Druchunas: 13:28:47
- that’s pretty scary
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:28:50
- Tracy – followed? That is scary?
- Jill Powell: 13:28:51
- ah latin homework, saved the day
- Tracy King: 13:28:53
- yeah, Latin at that age!
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:29:11
- Touching is, I think, where it begins to cross the line
- Tracy King: 13:29:13
- I still carry a rape alarm to this day, though
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:29:20
- What is a rape alarm?
- Tracy King: 13:29:23
- I tend to attract nutters
- Rebecca Watson: 13:29:32
- like a horn thing?
- Tracy King: 13:29:34
- yeah
- Jill Powell: 13:29:35
- is it like a car alarm, strapped to you?
- Maria Walters: 13:29:35
- no touchy, definitely
- Tracy King: 13:29:43
- it’s a compressed air can thing
- Tracy King: 13:29:51
- you press it and it goes AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
- Rebecca Watson: 13:29:53
- anyone carry mace?
- Jill Powell: 13:29:58
- nope
- Tracy King: 13:30:01
- Not sure mace is legal here
- Maria Walters: 13:30:01
- i used to, when i was in college
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:30:03
- I’ve carried mace for the last two years
- Rebecca Watson: 13:30:09
- ever use it?
- Maria Walters: 13:30:10
- and i would get home to my apt late
- Maria Walters: 13:30:15
- nope never used it
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:30:15
- Not yet
- Rebecca Watson: 13:30:26
- it’s one of those things I don’t think about a lot
- Rebecca Watson: 13:30:28
- self-defense
- Donna Druchunas: 13:30:30
- Well, I’m older, fatter, and marrieder than I was way back when, but I am a little nervous about spending a month in Lithuania by myself this summer.
- Tracy King: 13:30:40
- cause of the Vampires?
- Maria Walters: 13:30:48
- dont be silly tracy
- Rebecca Watson: 13:30:53
- if any of us is prepared for the vampires, it’s Donna
- Jill Powell: 13:31:01
- I take kickboxing classes, so it’s kind of like self defense if i ever needed it
- Maria Walters: 13:31:02
- it’s the werewolves you have to be worried about in lithuania
- Maria Walters: 13:31:08
- well-known fact
- Maria Walters: 13:31:22
- i would like to take self-defense classes
- Donna Druchunas: 13:31:29
- I just haven’t traveled alone in a long time.
- Maria Walters: 13:31:35
- i am a wimp:)
- Donna Druchunas: 13:31:43
- But it’s the Russian mob that you really have to worry about….
- Maria Walters: 13:31:47
- i travel alone a lot -it’s not bad once you get used to it
- Donna Druchunas: 13:31:59
- I used to not be a wimp. Sigh.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:32:04
- it is harder to travel alone as a woman, I think.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:32:26
- it’s like, travelers are alread vulnerable as is
- Rebecca Watson: 13:32:42
- being a woman seems like having a target stuck on your back at all times
- Maria Walters: 13:32:53
- i lived alone in london for 3 months a few years ago, for work. great neighborhood but i lived right on the high street and it got crazy on friday and saturday night
- Tracy King: 13:33:00
- yeah, a sign that says “yeah I want casual sex with you, why not try it on?”
- Donna Druchunas: 13:33:03
- Well, growing up in New York made me … something… I don’t feel intimidated in many environments
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:33:04
- I read an article last week that warned against filling out those room service cards that you leave on your door
- Maria Walters: 13:33:05
- that would often get unpleasant
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:33:17
- I guess predators were reading them to find out who was ordering food for one
- Maria Walters: 13:33:29
- ohhh… creepy
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:33:33
- Then the guy went to the front desk, said he was the “husband”, and got a room key
- Rebecca Watson: 13:33:39
- that reminds me of the advice I got to never make your answering machine message obvious that it’s just you.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:33:46
- Luckily, she had the chain latched, so he didn’t get in
- Maria Walters: 13:33:55
- yes, i ‘ve heard that too rebecca
- Rebecca Watson: 13:34:13
- I had a friend whose message was “This is Mag and Sam, leave a message” and Sam was her dog.
- Maria Walters: 13:34:18
- oh yes, try to get a room that isnt on the ground floor and always do the extra latch
- Tracy King: 13:34:27
- Hotels give out keys willy nilly? Seems implausible.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:34:41
- depends on the hotel
- Maria Walters: 13:34:43
- that seems strange to me as well – would surely need an ID or something?
- Tracy King: 13:34:44
- yeah
- Donna Druchunas: 13:34:45
- I’m staying in a dorm. So I’m mainly hoping it’s not a bunch of loud party-animal students so I can sleep.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:34:48
- I’m sure a large chain would have security in place
- Rebecca Watson: 13:34:59
- but some crummy motel? Maybe not…
- Rebecca Watson: 13:35:05
- oh, but would they have room service? Hm.
- Maria Walters: 13:35:16
- yeah, true
- Rebecca Watson: 13:35:24
- Okay, yeah, I’m thinking that any hotel with room service is going to be checking IDs before handing over keys.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:35:34
- There were a lot of drunk, roudy guys when I was in Vilnius last summer. But they were more concerned with basketball than women.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:35:36
- The front desk is not supposed to give room keys without ID, but you’re relying on a clerk to enforce this
- Tracy King: 13:35:39
- I suppose you could con someone into it with the right patter
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:35:43
- And the “customers” can be forceful
- Tracy King: 13:35:46
- yeah
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:36:04
- With the focus on customer service, and our natural inclination to avoid confrontation, it can happen anywhere
- Tracy King: 13:36:10
- But I’m sure it’s more of an exception than a rule. Still, why take the risk?
- Maria Walters: 13:36:12
- but but but if you are going to break into someones room to attack them
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:36:18
- Yeah, probably
- Maria Walters: 13:36:27
- are you really going to be forceful with the clerk soyou’re all memorable?
- Tracy King: 13:36:41
- true
- Maria Walters: 13:36:41
- i guess criminals are stupid, but still…
- Tracy King: 13:36:51
- did we just debunk a media anecdote? :D
- Maria Walters: 13:36:53
- i think the moral is , order extra breakfast !! :)
- Jill Powell: 13:36:59
- hahaha
- Tracy King: 13:37:03
- I can eat two helpings of eggs benedict
- Maria Walters: 13:37:07
- yeah man
- Bug Girl: 13:37:09
- I’m here! (late!)
- Tracy King: 13:37:10
- I like this moral
- Tracy King: 13:37:13
- Hey buggy!
- Rebecca Watson: 13:37:13
- Hey Bug!
- Maria Walters: 13:37:19
- hi bug girl!
- Jill Powell: 13:37:22
- hey Bug!
- Bug Girl: 13:37:33
- was having too much fun turning the compost pile to come inside
- Rebecca Watson: 13:37:37
- So yeah, that’s very interesting though that we did just sort of debunk that, yet there’s still “but why take the chance?”
- Donna Druchunas: 13:37:55
- I do like the two breaksfast solution.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:37:56
- But I think it’s important to not scare women over things that aren’t real risks.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:37:58
- You know?
- Maria Walters: 13:37:58
- i think it’s a win win
- Maria Walters: 13:38:06
- extra breakfast, and extra caution
- Maria Walters: 13:38:11
- :)
- Rebecca Watson: 13:38:14
- ha
- Jill Powell: 13:38:15
- its a new slogan
- Maria Walters: 13:38:18
- yes, that is true rebecca
- Donna Druchunas: 13:38:19
- Yeah, I hate all the news that is just a bunch of fear mongering drivel.
- Tracy King: 13:38:25
- Two Crepes, No Rapes!
- Maria Walters: 13:38:29
- HAHAHAHAHAA
- Rebecca Watson: 13:38:30
- HA
- Donna Druchunas: 13:38:32
- extra caution works in many situations
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:38:32
- lol!
- Jill Powell: 13:38:33
- ha!
- Bug Girl: 13:38:33
- which fear mongering drivel?
- Bug Girl: 13:38:51
- (there’s a lot–trying to catch up)
- Rebecca Watson: 13:38:54
- BugGirl, we’re talking about the advice that women not fill out room service cards at hotels when traveling alone
- Donna Druchunas: 13:38:55
- like drive with your car windows up and the doors locked so you don’t get carjacked and shit.
- Tracy King: 13:39:10
- ugh, my friend got carjacked in a parking lot
- Maria Walters: 13:39:27
- well like the stories you get via email taht say WALK DIRECTLY TO YOUR CAR DONT MAKE EYE CONTACT AND IF ANYONE APPROACHES YOU, KICK THEM IN THE NUTS AND RUN SCREAMING!!!
- Rebecca Watson: 13:39:29
- (and bug, I’m posting all this on Skepchick so you can skim the previous transcript if you want!)
- Bug Girl: 13:39:30
- I think that has more to do with your car model than anything else
- Donna Druchunas: 13:39:32
- I guess I’d just rather take my chances than spend every minute worrying
- Maria Walters: 13:40:04
- i think there has to be some sort of middle ground
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:40:11
- I agree, Donna. Take reasonable caution.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:40:16
- Ugh, when I was in 6th grade or so a cop came to talk to us about being safe during the holidays. part of that was watching for men LAYING UNDER YOUR CAR in the mall parking lot waiting to slice your achilles and steel your car.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:40:19
- But not extremem.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:40:22
- I was, like 11 years old.
- Jill Powell: 13:40:23
- Yeah, you just have to be smart about it—be prepared but not crazy paranoid? because who wants to live in fear for life?
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:40:25
- or extreme. (oops)
- Maria Walters: 13:40:27
- AHHHHHHHH
- Rebecca Watson: 13:40:33
- I’m still scared of guys laying under my car.
- Maria Walters: 13:40:33
- that is scary rebecca
- Rebecca Watson: 13:40:36
- and I don’t have a car.
- Jill Powell: 13:40:44
- i remember getting told that too in grade 7
- Maria Walters: 13:40:50
- now i’m scared of guys laying under my car
- Donna Druchunas: 13:40:51
- that’s worse than rapture fears
- Jen Myers: 13:41:05
- There’s a email meme that talks about the under the car thing – I’ve gotten it from about five different female friends.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:41:06
- Has anyone ever heard to be careful if you come out and there’s a van parked next to you?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:41:23
- ah, so it wasn’t just in S. Jersey
- Rebecca Watson: 13:41:25
- no Stacey
- Rebecca Watson: 13:41:27
- kidnapping?
- Donna Druchunas: 13:41:29
- no
- Jill Powell: 13:41:29
- there’s a van parked by the curb of my apartment building all the friggen time
- Rebecca Watson: 13:41:36
- RUN!
- Maria Walters: 13:41:38
- i think i’ve heard that one jill
- Maria Walters: 13:41:42
- scream and run
- Jill Powell: 13:41:47
- i watch a lot of horror movies so i walk really fast
- Maria Walters: 13:41:49
- and scream “Fire”
- Maria Walters: 13:41:59
- because people wont respond if you scream “Rape”
- Maria Walters: 13:42:03
- ever heard that?
- Jill Powell: 13:42:10
- i don’t want to relive a scene from silence of the lambs
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:42:16
- Well, the concept is that kidnappers allegedly are more likely to drive vans, and that they will swipe you as you try to enter your car.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:42:22
- YES, I have heard the fire thing
- Jill Powell: 13:42:26
- i haven’t
- Donna Druchunas: 13:42:32
- why the frak would someone want to kidnap ME?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:42:49
- I think the idea is that yelling “rape” means it’s just you in trouble. “Fire” means everyone is in trouble
- Bug Girl: 13:42:52
- but…this is all a tiny part of the actual rapes/kidnaps that occur. Stranger rape is extremely rare.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:42:53
- I’m not sure I buy it, though
- Jill Powell: 13:43:05
- stranger danger
- Maria Walters: 13:43:06
- yeah, i dont know rebecca
- Bug Girl: 13:43:06
- You should be more suspicious of people you know.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:43:08
- It would be interesting to do actual resesarch on the truthfulness/likelihood of all of these things we have heard.
- Maria Walters: 13:43:14
- seems to me if you are the type of person to respond to someone screaming
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:43:18
- Jeez – I can’t type today. Research.
- Maria Walters: 13:43:21
- it wont matter what the person is screaming
- Donna Druchunas: 13:43:21
- I agree, stranger kidnapping and murder are rare too
- Rebecca Watson: 13:43:26
- should we do an investigation where we stand outside yelling “RAPE!” ?
- Maria Walters: 13:43:33
- HA!
- Bug Girl: 13:43:33
- no
- Maria Walters: 13:43:40
- half of us yell Rape, the other half yell Fire
- Rebecca Watson: 13:43:40
- okay, right, probably not.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:43:42
- ha ha
- Maria Walters: 13:43:42
- see what happens
- Bug Girl: 13:43:46
- as a survivor, that would totally freak me out.
- Maria Walters: 13:43:53
- i vote we put Sam in the “Rape” group
- Donna Druchunas: 13:44:04
- since he’s not here, we get to assign him!
- Rebecca Watson: 13:44:06
- clarification: I was being facetious about standing outside yelling rape.
- Maria Walters: 13:44:13
- yes, me too!
- Bug Girl: 13:44:13
- well, it’s a neat idea.
- Bug Girl: 13:44:25
- but I think it wouln’t work well
- Maria Walters: 13:44:31
- sorry if that wasnt clear :) i dont want to be the girl who yelled Rape
- Donna Druchunas: 13:44:34
- rebecca, we got that you weren’t serious about that
- Rebecca Watson: 13:44:34
- But it WOULD be nice to know if any of this stuff is worth our mental energy
- Bug Girl: 13:44:44
- i respond anytime i hear screaming
- Donna Druchunas: 13:45:05
- I don’t remember ever hearing screaming
- Jill Powell: 13:45:11
- i don’t know if you are about to be rape, would you be able to scream? I think i would be so scared I wouldn’t be able to say anything, you know, paralyzed with fear or something?
- Bug Girl: 13:45:11
- I don’t think this is worth worrying about, other than having a plan in case of attack.
- Maria Walters: 13:45:35
- Jill – i dont think any of us know how we would react
- Bug Girl: 13:45:40
- You are so much more likel, as a woman, to be murdered or raped by an acquaintance.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:45:47
- yes
- Bug Girl: 13:45:50
- sad, but the stats are pretty clear
- Donna Druchunas: 13:45:52
- that’s why I have no friends!
- Maria Walters: 13:46:01
- i have friends but i can take them all..
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:46:06
- Yes, I just read that – in PT, I think.
- Bug Girl: 13:46:09
- On the other hand, if you live your life in a constant state of fear, you’re easier to control….
- Rebecca Watson: 13:46:25
- interesting, while googling for stats on yelling fire, I found this: http://www.justyellfire.com
- Donna Druchunas: 13:46:29
- actually, weirdly, when I was younger most of my friends were men, now just about all of my friends are women
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:46:56
- That’s an interesting statement, Bug.
- Maria Walters: 13:47:28
- easier to control by who?
- Maria Walters: 13:47:31
- whom?
- Tracy King: 13:47:32
- sorry guys, I gotta bail
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:47:38
- Bye Teek!
- Tracy King: 13:47:41
- bye
- Rebecca Watson: 13:47:42
- later Teek!
- Maria Walters: 13:47:43
- by Teek!
- Jill Powell: 13:47:43
- bye!
- Donna Druchunas: 13:47:43
- ttyl
- Bug Girl: 13:47:45
- when I was helping teach self defense, one of the hardest things for women to do was to yell loudly. They had “be nice” so ingrained, yelling and getting angry usually took at least 3 class periods before they could yell regularly
- Bug Girl: 13:47:48
- bye t!
- Bug Girl: 13:48:04
- Control by the media; politicians; religion.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:48:10
- maria: I think easier to be controlled by whomever is doing the scaring
- Bug Girl: 13:48:12
- I mean, tazer parties??? WTF?
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:48:19
- You taught self-defense? I didn’t know we had an expert on the panel…
- Rebecca Watson: 13:48:20
- that’s interesting, Bug
- Rebecca Watson: 13:48:35
- that’s why I think so few women are outspoken skeptics — they’re just too nice.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:48:44
- hey, we should have a skepchick self defense class at a conference in the future
- Rebecca Watson: 13:48:44
- Or they are expected to be nice.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:48:46
- So what does that make us? Not nice?
- Jill Powell: 13:48:47
- damn niceness
- Maria Walters: 13:48:53
- i think my problem tends to be the opposite – i have a tendency to assume i’m safe, probably more than I should
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:48:56
- Donna – I’d attend.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:48:57
- Sorry, I meant . . . “nice”
- Bug Girl: 13:48:59
- unfortunately, I’m an expert both in being raped and learning to defend your self.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:49:00
- I’m not nice.
- Bug Girl: 13:49:11
- Good. Don’t be nice.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:49:13
- Oh, so sorry to hear that.
- Maria Walters: 13:49:36
- I’m sorry Bug Girl – that’s awful…
- Jill Powell: 13:49:46
- yeah that is awful and scary
- Rebecca Watson: 13:49:51
- From that perspective, Bug, what are your thoughts on the original topic of catcalling?
- Bug Girl: 13:49:54
- It was long enough ago that I can talk about it now. And it was an acquaintance rape, when I was a freshman in college.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:49:56
- do you find it threatening?
- Bug Girl: 13:50:27
- i hate it. I hate cat calling, but I have always disliked it. I have huge tracts of land, and get way too much attention.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:50:55
- Guys do like those huge tracts of land… ;)
- Rebecca Watson: 13:50:56
- first of all, big points for the monty python
- Maria Walters: 13:50:57
- heh
- Rebecca Watson: 13:51:11
- is it (catcalling) ever okay?
- Bug Girl: 13:51:23
- I definately think catcalling is a type of control as well. What quicker and faster way to make you realize you are only worth something when you have a cooze?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:51:51
- see, I disagree. I think that in some instances it can simply be a compliment
- Rebecca Watson: 13:52:07
- yes, a physical compliment, but not necessarily something designed to humiliate the woman
- Jill Powell: 13:52:07
- It depends on the person who recieves it
- Bug Girl: 13:52:29
- Well, there is the accidental cat call. Like, someone comes around the corner and suprises an “Ay Mami!” out of you.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:52:38
- Rebecca, are you saying it can be elegantly done?
- Maria Walters: 13:52:47
- I agree it can be a compliment. And how the person receives it means you can allow it to be about them cotnrolling it or you can take control of it yourself
- Donna Druchunas: 13:52:49
- I don’t think all guys mean it in a threatening way, in that I agree with Rebecca. But I still think it’s rude and I don’t see how any guy in today’s society can not know that.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:52:55
- I wouldn’t call it “elegant”
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:53:04
- sophisticated?
- Bug Girl: 13:53:09
- I find my self doing that about undergrads often–lack of clothing startles a “whoah!” out of me.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:53:09
- but I mentioned earlier that there have been some men who have made me grin
- Jill Powell: 13:53:32
- what if the catcall is in the form of a poem? :)
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:53:42
- And what, in particular, inspired the grin?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:53:52
- In fact I still remember a guy I passed on the street, who gave me this huge grin and told me I looked like “walking sunshine, baby!” I laughed, he laughed, we kept walking
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:54:06
- Jill – unless they’re well done, poems often come off cheezy.
- Maria Walters: 13:54:26
- it’s all abouot what you get complimented on too, i guess
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:54:28
- I like that catcall
- Rebecca Watson: 13:54:39
- I think it’s about the delivery, yeah
- Donna Druchunas: 13:54:40
- Is there a difference between a catcall and a compliment from a stranger?
- Maria Walters: 13:54:42
- i get complimented on my smile sometimes
- Maria Walters: 13:54:49
- and you can’t help but like that
- Rebecca Watson: 13:54:52
- oh, that’s a good point, Donna.
- Bug Girl: 13:54:57
- what kind of poem? “Roses are red, violets are blue, I get a boner, Just looking at you?”
- Donna Druchunas: 13:55:00
- ahhahahhaha
- Maria Walters: 13:55:02
- yeah, what is a catcall
- Rebecca Watson: 13:55:02
- HA
- Jill Powell: 13:55:02
- hahahaha
- Maria Walters: 13:55:04
- snort
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:55:12
- lol Bug
- Bug Girl: 13:55:30
- If someone catcalls me in iambic pentameter, that I think I would be ok with.
- Donna Druchunas: 13:55:42
- when I think of a catcall, I think of a guy yelling something lude at me, or whistling. Not saying “You are a ray of sunshine.”
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:55:54
- Me too, Donna.
- Jill Powell: 13:55:55
- yeah i agree
- Rebecca Watson: 13:56:02
- okay, fair point
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:56:19
- Ok, consulting dictionary.
- Rebecca Watson: 13:56:25
- I suppose my definition included anything that came out of nowhere from a total stranger on the street…
- Maria Walters: 13:56:27
- it’s still someone you dont know yelling something about your physical appearance
- Bug Girl: 13:56:29
- Now that I’m older, I tend to get negative catcalls. “hey fat bitch!” or “Hey ugly bitch! Go home!”
- Maria Walters: 13:56:39
- oh damn
- Rebecca Watson: 13:56:41
- Ugh, seriously?
- Donna Druchunas: 13:56:43
- Shit, really?
- Maria Walters: 13:56:44
- that’s awful, no matter what
- Bug Girl: 13:56:46
- yeah, it’s the focus on the body.
- Bug Girl: 13:56:49
- And the shaming.
- Jill Powell: 13:56:50
- Yeah, same here Bug
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:57:10
- A harsh or shrill call or whistle expressing derision or disapproval.
- Maria Walters: 13:57:23
- woah – derision or dissaproval?!
- Maria Walters: 13:57:25
- that changes things
- Rebecca Watson: 13:57:26
- derision
- Rebecca Watson: 13:57:28
- huh
- Donna Druchunas: 13:57:32
- Yeah, that part doesn’t make sense.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:57:47
- Well, I’m skeptical of dictionary.com ;)
- Maria Walters: 13:57:53
- heh
- Bug Girl: 13:57:54
- sure it does. You don’t do that to someone you respect or know. It’s for strangers.
- Bug Girl: 13:58:12
- also, don’t look up science or theory. You’re head will asplode.
- Bug Girl: 13:58:19
- OMG
- Maria Walters: 13:58:19
- is it by definition a stranger?
- Rebecca Watson: 13:58:20
- well, I can see how it might transition to what we consider catcalling. The kind of catcall that is telling a woman she’s nothing better than a sex toy, for instance
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:58:21
- In pop culture, it definitely refers to unwelcome, sexually-oriented, objectifying statements.
- Maria Walters: 13:58:25
- can you cat call a friend?
- Donna Druchunas: 13:58:31
- Disrespect, yes. That’s why I don’ think the “you are a ray of sunshine” type of compliment qualifies.
- Bug Girl: 13:58:31
- I can’t believe i made that typo
- Bug Girl: 13:58:35
- ah well.
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:58:52
- Hmm….replace unwelcome with unprovoked
- Rebecca Watson: 13:59:35
- JanieBelle on Skepchick has agreed that context is the thing
- Stacey Rodberg: 13:59:55
- You know what I think is key to the context?
- Rebecca Watson: 14:00:16
- Though I’m partially pro-catcalling, the attitude of the woman in that article who seemed to get all her self-esteem from catcalls was . . . depressing
- Donna Druchunas: 14:00:19
- what?
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:00:20
- I think that it IS, by defintion a stranger making comments about you that are inappropriately personal
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:00:26
- Which is what makes it unnerving.
- Jill Powell: 14:00:46
- good point Stacey
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:00:55
- The comment itself may be a compliment, but the fact that a stranger is talking about your tits is a bit unnerving
- Donna Druchunas: 14:00:56
- But is is just a sexist thing? I mean, back to the women catcalling at men…. if it were happening in equal frequency, would this still be the same discussion?
- Rebecca Watson: 14:01:14
- Would men enjoy it?
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:01:22
- I say yes, Rebecca!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:01:37
- I hate to say it because it feels sexist, but yeah I think they would
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:01:41
- Or a larger percentage of men than women would enjoy it
- Donna Druchunas: 14:01:44
- mr writerdd says “I think so. It would boos their ego.”
- Bug Girl: 14:01:53
- Yeah, but aside from the package on a spandex clad guy, what is visible to comment about on a guy?
- Bug Girl: 14:02:02
- Yo Daddy, those some awesome ears!
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:02:04
- Biceps?
- Jill Powell: 14:02:06
- uh…nice hair?
- Donna Druchunas: 14:02:07
- It doesn’t have to be visible to comment.
- Rebecca Watson: 14:02:07
- muscles
- Maria Walters: 14:02:09
- isnt it about self-confidence too, to some degree? I mean, if you feel uncomfortable tlaking about yourself, you will be uncomfortable with others, and particularly, strangers, talking about you
- Maria Walters: 14:02:17
- particulalry true from a physical standpoint
- Rebecca Watson: 14:02:19
- or you could postulate about, ahem, girth.
- Maria Walters: 14:02:29
- all the things I am most confident in about myself tend to be non-physical
- Jill Powell: 14:02:35
- me too
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:02:41
- Or extrapolate based on factors such as nose or feet
- Maria Walters: 14:02:42
- you can comment on a guy’s ass
- Maria Walters: 14:02:45
- totally
- Rebecca Watson: 14:02:46
- Hey baby, nice wits!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:02:52
- That would be okay, I think.
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:02:52
- lol Rebecca
- Maria Walters: 14:02:53
- heh
- Donna Druchunas: 14:02:58
- Is that a cucumber in your pants?
- Bug Girl: 14:03:01
- I don’t know. I’m pretty pro sex, but wouldn’t comment like that. I guess it’s the southern thing.
- Maria Walters: 14:03:04
- i would be happy with that
- Donna Druchunas: 14:03:30
- Bug, I’m from NY and I would not comment like that either.
- Rebecca Watson: 14:03:39
- well that’s just it, though
- Rebecca Watson: 14:03:42
- I think most women wouldn’t
- Rebecca Watson: 14:03:46
- which is why they don’t
- Maria Walters: 14:03:51
- not sober, no :)
- Bug Girl: 14:03:59
- and now we’re back to socialization and being nice…..
- Rebecca Watson: 14:04:04
- right, there’s still the drunken pennies bouncing off asses thing.
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:04:05
- We could easily weave evolutionary theory into this discussion if we wanted to go that deep
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:04:15
- (the behavioral aspects)
- Rebecca Watson: 14:04:21
- Maybe another time. My hangover is still raging.
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:04:26
- lol
- Bug Girl: 14:04:35
- Let’s not. Sociobiology is a pretty weak way to explain anything.
- Maria Walters: 14:04:37
- i can’t be the only one who asked a someone to bounce a penny of someone’s ass! :)
- Donna Druchunas: 14:04:39
- No, I wouldn’t not comment because I’m being nice. I just am not interested in picking up strange guys and I wouldn’t comment like that if I didn’t have some intention of doing something….
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:04:55
- Agreed, Donna
- Donna Druchunas: 14:05:10
- Which makes me wonder if the guys who are catcalling have some intention of doing something….
- Rebecca Watson: 14:05:13
- There are certainly better ways to pick people up
- Rebecca Watson: 14:05:16
- right
- Maria Walters: 14:05:17
- hmmm
- Jill Powell: 14:05:19
- I’m just shy and awkward in the best scenerios :P
- Maria Walters: 14:05:20
- is cat calling about picking people up??
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:05:34
- Yeah, what is the motivation?
- Bug Girl: 14:05:36
- they want you to react and feel their power over you.
- Maria Walters: 14:05:38
- i mean, if you got cat called, and turned to the guys and said ‘ok, let’s go!’
- Rebecca Watson: 14:05:41
- I feel like there are two reasons: either just to give someone a genuine compliment (which might not be catcalling) or to freak them out.
- Maria Walters: 14:05:49
- What would they do?
- Donna Druchunas: 14:05:50
- It’s also about showing how macho you are in front of your friends.
- Donna Druchunas: 14:05:59
- Like a gorilla beating his chest.
- Rebecca Watson: 14:06:07
- yes. getting an ego boost by showing you have power over someone else
- Maria Walters: 14:06:23
- I can see that…
- Rebecca Watson: 14:06:26
- so I think I can say that under certain definitions, I am anti-catcalling.
- Donna Druchunas: 14:06:50
- Well, I’ve gotta run. This was fun!
- Maria Walters: 14:06:54
- only cat call if you are being nice about it?
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:06:58
- Bye Donna!
- Jill Powell: 14:06:59
- bye donna!
- Maria Walters: 14:07:00
- seeya donna
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:02
- bye donna!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:08
- I think this is probably a good place to end it
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:14
- we’ve been at it an hour
- Maria Walters: 14:07:18
- yep
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:19
- and I need to go get more aspiring
- Bug Girl: 14:07:20
- I think it’s probably not a coincidence that guys that are steretypically known for catcalling are on the low socioeconomic scale
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:21
- aspirin
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:22
- ugh
- Bug Girl: 14:07:29
- This was fun!
- Maria Walters: 14:07:30
- good luck with the hangover!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:35
- thanks!
- Jill Powell: 14:07:37
- i need to work on my comic, see you all later!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:42
- and thanks, ladies, for the great conversation once again
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:07:48
- Also interesting, Bug!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:07:54
- let’s do it again. I’ll send out an email
- Maria Walters: 14:07:55
- see you guys!
- Stacey Rodberg: 14:07:59
- Later!
- Maria Walters: 14:07:59
- yes, definitely!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:08:02
- and big thanks to you, Bug, for sharing!
- Bug Girl: 14:08:04
- bye!
- Rebecca Watson: 14:08:06
- happy Sunday, all
- Maria Walters: 14:08:09
- bye all!
I guess when it comes to catcalling, context makes a big difference.
As a neandertal man there have been a few times in my life when a woman of such amazing beauty would pass by and I would whistle. I am sure I could have helped myself but it is amazing how attractive some women are and the primal feelings they can stir up. Testosterone really clouds the thinking portions of the mind.
A point brought up later in the conversation makes a big difference as well, that of definition.
“Catcalling” in my mind was always the simple two note whistle.
If you yell, “Hey baby, show me your tits” at me, I better be on a balcony at Mardi Gras, or you’re going to be walking funny.
Am I the only one who’s not entirely comfortable with the idea of half a dozen women assigning motivation to the actions of men they don’t know? Honestly, if you’re sitting around saying it’s something you don’t, and wouldn’t do, how can you posit an explanation for why someone else does it? Not exactly the scientific method, is it? Sexism cuts both ways, ladies, and I’m rather disappointed to see how much of it reared its head there.
Rystefn makes a good point. How would a study of the motivation be set up?
I think first the definitional issue would have to be resolved. Then send out a group of scientists, one of whom would be designated “the bait”. Have the rest follow her around from a distance, and start doing a survey.
Sounds like a Skepchick get-together to me.
“Assigning motivation?” Trying to figure out why a man would shout a vulgar comment at a woman is hardly assigning motivation, it’s discussing possibilities.
And no, this wasn’t the scientific method. It was a Skype chat. Though we did briefly talk about how one would scientifically verify a common piece of advice concerning rape.
I don’t want to speak for everyone, but I think that part of the conversation was speculation. I don’t think anyone claimed to have performed a study on the topic.
I agree that it would be interesting to perform such a study. Perhaps anonymous surveys would shed light, though, survey results are limited by the honesty of the survey takers.
Sorry, Rebecca – didn’t realize you were commenting at the same time.
Agreed, but it’s probably more practical than dragging a brain-scanning MRI machine around.
:)
I think it would be an interesting study.
I’d like to clarify that, when I brought up evolutionary theory above, what I was thinking wasn’t actually that deep. Two questions were posed:
– Why don’t women (generally) catcall men?
– If they did, would men be more likely to enjoy it?
It occurred to me that perhaps this has something to do with a topic covered by the last issue of PT about the basic dynamics of relationships between men & women. The artice was based on broad generalizations, but basically suggested that men have shorter term goals than women – men’s goal is to “get” the girl and women’s goal is to “keep” the man (again, broad generalizations), and the key underlying factor is that women give birth and are more likely to raise the child if the couple splits. So, in short, I was thinking that perhaps these underlying dynamics affect the propensity of men to catcall women vs. women catcalling men.
Maybe or maybe not….it was just a thought.
To clarify my comment about class/socioeconomic status–
If catcalling is about power, then the folks with the least power (=money, control over their lives) would be most likely to do it.
It’s a quick rush.
And that is speculation, BTW, but it certainly fits my experiences in Texas.
I’ll be the first to admit to the limitations inherent in reading something over the internet, but it seems to me that a few of those possibilities were being asserted more than suggested. I apologize if I’m wrong, but it felt that way to me.
For example “they want you to react and feel their power over you.” doesn’t feel like a hypothetical to me. Again, if it’s simply a failure of the medium to carry the finer nuances of language, then I apologize for misreading the intent. Surely you can see how a person might make that mistake, though.
Rystefn, when women have been ruling society and discriminating against men for, oh say 10,000 years, then let’s talk about “sexism goes both ways.” Until then, pffffft.
I do think it is a power dynamic.
And that is based both on 30 years of being on the receiving end, as well as what I learned while working at a womens’ safe house.
Bug, I think that’s a really interesting topic to bring up. Catcalling is, as a rule, perpetrated by those on the lower end of the socio-economic scale. Why is that? Power? Different class-specific norms? A combination of factors?
Redneckism? :-)
Yeah, I left that one out. :)
Sorry, but no. You can’t have it both ways. Either sexism is wrong, or it is not wrong. Double-standards do not fly with me. Never have, never will.
…and I’m pretty sure 90% of the time, it’s an unthinking response meant as a compliment. Callous, maybe. Inconsiderate, maybe. Rude, almost universally. An attempt to derive power, not often. This is based on nearly thirty years of carrying around testicles and actually knowing from direct experience what goes on in a male person’s head.
Bug_girl, that’s just anecdotal. Your experience doesn’t count for shit unless you have a study to back it up. Don’t you know anything? Sheesh.
Rystefn, when a guy catcalls a girl, does he watch for her reaction? If so, does having made the pretty girl feel something (whether flattered, embarrassed, or other) affect him? If not, what is the payoff for catcalling? Almost no one does anything if there’s not some payoff, even if it’s just that he wanted to release the tension caused by his attraction.
I think Bug was referring to the power the catcaller exerts over the girl by making her react, in whatever way (sorry if I misinterpreted, Bug).
Ryst, I’m not talking about double standards. There is no double standard here because women have never had power over men in society.
Sexism is about the group without power being discriminated against, insulted, harassed, and otherwise taken advantage of by the group with power. Males have the power in every society on this planet. Racism is the same thing, it’s about power, in this case it’s about white people having power over people with brown skin.
Talking about reverse sexism or reverse racism is just bullshit because you’re talking about the people without the power. It’s not about whether or not one group likes the other or says bad things about the other. It’s about taking advantage of a less privileged group.
The more I think about this the more I agree with Bug that it is about power.
In the interests of science, I volunteer to sit in a cafe patio and examine my feelings while I watch attractive women walk past.
But I don’t think I’ve ever catcalled anyone I didn’t already know. Though I did get severely and publicly chastised back in the ’80’s for giving a woman the up-and-down look. Man, even thinking about that 25 years later makes me squirm.
OK, let me draw you a parallel. Forgive me if this seems rambling, but it does come back around to the point.
Working at the weapons shop, we had a bit of a game, wherein one of the guys (please note that I always use “guys” as gender-neutral, and the women who worked with us played as well), upon spotting an attractive person in the vicinity of the shop would “call dibs.” There were a great variety of rules and interplay (it was a game, after all), and it got quite complicated at times. Was anyone laying any sort of actual claim to anyone else? Of course not. Was it in any way serious? Not remotely. Were we trying to get a reaction out of the people we saw? Not at all, in fact, we didn’t do anything overt in the course of the game at all. What was the payoff? We pointed out to our friends a person worth seeing, and got a little bit of credit for being the first person to notice.
Now, I want you to think back, and see if you can recall ever hearing a catcall from a guy who was alone. Not very often, I’ll wager.
Moreover, if I pick a flower a lover just to see the smile on her face when I give it to her, is that about my power over her? I mean, I’m clearly doing it to cause a reaction, and the reaction IS the payoff, but I don’t want her to “feel my power” over her or anything like that.
The simple fact here is that you’re taking something which is at worst unthinking and making it into something sinister.
Rystefn, your analogies don’t hold up for reasons we made clear in the chat. Giving a flower to your lover is no where near to shouting “Nice tits” at a stranger.
At the start of the chat, I was defining a catcall as something that could be positive or negative. In that case, I specifically said that one reason a man might do it is to simply pay a woman a compliment.
When defining a catcall as a derisive comment, it’s very doubtful that it’s meant to make a woman feel good. It is “unthinking” at best, and sinister at worst. The fact that you believe unthinking is the worst possible motive tells me that you’ve never been in or seen a situation where a man purposely attempts to make a woman feel frightened or hurt with a catcall.
I hope by “you” you don’t mean “me” because I never took the position that it was sinister. I said that catcalling is creepy, but harmless, that people (including women) aren’t entitled to be comfortable 100% of the time, and that adapting to uncomfortable circumstances builds character.
That said, we all do things to provoke reactions in other people all the time, and we should. Context makes the difference. For example, the difference between catcalling and giving a woman a flower is the familiarity of the parties. As I said in the chat, one of the key factors of catcalling is that the the caller is yelling out something inappropriately familiar to a stranger. A boyfriend complimenting a woman’s body is a completely different situation than a stranger on the street doing it. And that’s what can make women uncomfortable (IMO).
So you’re saying that it’s not racist to say “all white people are lying, thieves”? Or it’s not sexist to say “all men are pigs who only think about sex”? Because it sounds to me like that IS what you’re saying, and it’s completely and utterly wrong. Talking about reverse sexism and reverse racism is bullshit because there’s NO SUCH THING. racism is racism, no matter who is hating whom. Sexism is sexism, no matter who is looking down on whom. Prejudice is an ugly monster that finds its way easily into the minds of all of us, and pretending otherwise only encourages it to grow. Thinking you’re immune from the very idea of sexism merely because you’re a woman is a HUGE mistake. Are you in a position to oppress men on a societal scale? I don’t know you, but probably not. Are you in a position to oppress men on a specific, personal level? Ten-to-one, you are. So are a great many women, especially here in the west, where the societal domination of men over women isn’t remotely as complete as it is in other places.
Do not try to tell me you’ve never been in a position of power over a man. That it’s impossible for you to insult, harass, discriminate against, or otherwise take advantage of a man. I won’t believe it, and neither will anyone else with the slightest inkling of the way the world works.
There IS very much a double standard here. You spelled it out yourself. According to you, a “traditionally oppressed” person is in the free to do all these things and more to someone because of their skin color or gender or whatever, while I, automatically an oppressor because of my skin color and Y chromosome, MUST be in the wrong for trying to defend myself from blanket statements. Tell me again how that’s not a double-standard. Please. Because I completely and utterly fail to grasp where you have a leg to stand on making an assertion like that.
Sexism is sexism is sexism. It doesn’t matter who it comes from, or who it’s directed at. It’s ALWAYS wrong. Period.
I was using the generic plural form of “you.” English is an ugly language that way. Yes, we all do things to get a reaction from people. It’s only about power when it’s actually about power, though. If it’s about the reaction, then it’s about the reaction, not power. If it’s about pointing something out to your friends, then it’s about pointing it out, not power. If it’s done without a thought to the actual consequences, then it’s pretty much never about power.
It’s not ever defined that way. It may include the use for derisive purposes, but it is most certainly not ever limited to only that.
You are absolutely right, nor have I ever heard of such a situation, and frankly, I even have trouble imagining such a thing… Believe it or not, I’m in a bit of a unique situation to understand the derisive use of catcalls, because there ARE situations where men will use a catcall purposefully to embarrass or insult, for example, a man with long blond hair. That, I completely understand. It’s not about power in that instance, either. It’s about being a jerk.
Definition of Catcalling
I actually do hear what you’re saying, Rystefn. The motivations for catcalling are likely as diverse as the catcallers. For one person, it may be about showing off, for another about expressing interest, for yet another power to make a person believed to be out of one’s league feel something or react in some way, etc. I agree that a blanket statement saying that the motivation of all catcalling is power would be insufficient.
Incorrect. Dictionaries don’t give definitions. However, I will concede that some people apparently use the word that way. My understanding, however was that we were discussing such things as the wolf-whistle, and shouting “Hey sexy!” at people, in which case, I stand by my previous statement that these are NOT used derisively.
Thank you. Sometimes it’s too easy to get into the argument mode, and I freely admit to falling into it myself more often than is likely good for me. I apologize if I come off as being more antagonistic than I intend.
At the risk of sounding pretentious, I’m a guy who’s been “called” at several times by women and once by several gay men. I remember feeling uncomfortable once or twice, but generally flattered or at least amused.
I’ve always thought that cat-calling, traditionally, was a product of unbridled lust coupled with social ineptitude. If I’m so overcome with emotion that I have to say something, it’s generally “hi,” and a smile.
Rystefn – I agree with you man, as opposed to: “Of course I agree with you my white brother. Let’s go watch football, drink domestic beer and objectify some broads.”
If there’s some sort of constituency of white men ruling this world, then I was never put on the mailing list. I believe I’m owed 27 years worth of “cracker of the month club” fees. And free tickets to NASCAR. Yeah.
I actually agree with this too – for proof, check the chat where I said I was skeptical of dictionary.com. :)
And yeah, when I first heard we were going to chat about catcalling, I immediately thought of the whistling and yelling you describe. By the pop culture definition, the comments are generally compliments, but the personal nature is inappropriate coming from a stranger.
Back to the power discussion, even though I agree that motivations probably vary, I do think that Bug’s observation is interesting: catcallers are generally on the low end of the socio-economic continuum. And speculation as to why is an interesting topic. I think her suggestion is plausible: that those with less power may be motivated to provoke a response out of those with more power. It may not be the explanation in every case, but I think it’s a plausible explanation.
Speaking as a guy who has been catcalled by rowdy groups of women a few times. I was normally confused and would look around. When I realized that it was me they were calling sexy or whistling at or whatever I felt great. I would smile and wave. I think this has happened maybe 5 or 6 times in my life. Usually in bars but one time at a street fair. I liked it. Made me feel attractive.
Honestly, I think the situation is a bit less complex than all that. What is and is not good manners is highly mutable. I think in most cases, you’re simply seeing the interaction between subcultures – one in which it is appropriate, and even expected, and one in which it is not considered acceptable. I’m sure if they thought about who they were whistling and shouting at, most of them men in question would realize that it’s probably not appreciated much of the time. As I said before, unthinking. There are groups of people to whom it is acceptable, and in fact, some who consider it somewhat insulting to NOT react in that way. Everyone wants to feel attractive, and that is most certainly a way of being told that you are considered attractive, at least to those specific people. Witness the woman referenced above who claimed she’d feel like she was old and unattractive if she didn’t get shouted and whistled at. I’ve spoken to more than a few women who feel similar, but less extreme reactions – that the ego boost men were referenced as having as a universal reaction to such a thing happens to them as well in that scenario.
There are few black-and-white issues in the world, and this is no different. The thing to remember is that just because something might make one person uncomfortable or be considered inappropriate by a certain group, that is no reason to condemn it altogether.
interesting discussion”.
Now, I want you to think back, and see if you can recall ever hearing a catcall from a guy who was alone. Not very often, I’ll wager., dudes.”
Well, I know it’s anecdotal, but I have been the recipient of many solo catcalls. You know who is a big fan of issuing them? Latinos. Also black guys (but they mostly say stuff…”I would love to jack off all over your naked body” was a particularly memorable one)
In L.A. and S.F., it was/is almost exclusively that (I don’t enjoy walking down the street alone because of this…the latino guys are particularly fond ofmaking sucking or kissing noises) .
The time when I was 14 and a guy grabbed me by the arm and propositioned me for sex? A white foreigner of mediterranean extraction. White guys tend to say stuff more, too, although it’s usually more flattering/stupid than intimidating/overtly graphic.
So, yeah, in my (extensive , I also traveled in India, where white chicks are basically targets for a game called “stare or grab her tits?”) experience, catcalling IS about power and NOT about actual flattery…although it is extremely easy to tell the difference when it’s happening.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Jeesh.
I know! This happened to me when I was in Spain, and coming from a different culture, I looked at him like – are you serious? is that supposed to be appealing? Also, the staring (and not averting their eyes when you look back at them) is positively unnerving.
I think this discussion about culture is interesting, whether the subcultures Rystefn mentioned or international cultures.
I wonder how much influence situation has in relation to socio-economic status? Is it really the s-e status or the appearance thereof?
On many occasions, I’ve seen a lot of the worst of what y’all are including under the heading of “Catcalling” being committed at hockey games by men who return to seats that indicate they are in no way on the low end of that scale. Those seats are not cheap, and neither are the polo shirts or casual footwear (i.e. not sneakers) they wear.
So is a lack of piggish behavior a function of being on the higher end of the money scale, or a function of being overtly so? (Like when he’s at work in an office in his business suit?)
How much is a function of opportunity? Said man in fancy suit spends a large amount of his day on the thirtieth floor where he can lose his very lucrative job for sexual harassment. Hand him a hammer and a pair of jeans, does his behavior change?
Conversely, hand the carpenter an Armani suit, a six figure salary, and stick him on the top floor, does his?
How does that affect the gender angle? How many women are swinging hammers on the street level and even have the opportunity to behave badly? (I’m going with the stereotypical construction-worker eyeballs office-girl scenario, but adjust as needed.)
For clarity, let me say I’m not making any assertions (other than the hockey guys), I’m asking questions.
“Wake up and smell the coffee. Jeesh.”
I’m awake. I’m drinking coffee. It’s delish. I’m still not ruling the world with my white, XY brethren. I’m on my own in this world just like you and the next guy. Sorry. That’s seriously the way it is.
So, DD… Does that mean you know where I can go pick up my big, fat “Thanks for Being a White Male” check? I could really use the cash, since the IRS managed to lose my refund check and I have to wait for them to go through the whole bleeding process again.
JB, I’d just like to point out that construction workers, office workers, and spectators at a hockey game are all really their won subcultures, where different rules (or lack thereof) apply. Sure, some people go farther than they likely should, but that’s true of any culture anywhere, regardless of circumstances.
Hey Rys, they “lost” ours too. Bastards.
That’s kind of what I was getting at.
Ryst,
I hope I don’t sound mad at you or anything, but we definitely have a different perspective about what sexism and racism mean as concepts. I think the examples you gave above illustrate the use of stereotypes, but without the power structure behind them, I don’t consider them to be examples of sexism or racism.
White males hold the power in the Western world and they have for a long time; and the Western world has had power over the rest of the world through colonization and economics, essentially giving white males power throughout the world.
That does not mean that every white male holds a position of power, but that for the most part positions of power are held by white males. It also does not mean that I have anything against white males, but I do have something against a system that does not allow for diversity in power.
These things have been changing slowly throughout the 20th century, but they have not changed enough to have become untrue. There are huge forces (such as the U.S. Republican party and the religious right) fighting to keep the white male power structure in place. I hope they fail and that true equality comes into play, but I am by no means optimistic that this is the only possible outcome.
I’m sure this has strayed far off the topic of catcalls, but there you have it.