Man, I totally forgot that it was Tuesday, my day to post over on the SGU blog and cross-post here. Boy, do I have absolutely nothing. It’s mostly because I’ve had a rough few days, with nightmare commutes last night and this morning. Also this morning, before work, I was standing in a coffee shop quietly sipping a cup and looking out the window while waiting for my bus. I was wearing a short jacket, a skirt that comes to my knees, and boots that come up to the middle of my calves. I was feeling pretty good when I left the house, since the boots are brand new and I’m in love with them. They’re badass, with thick soles and long laces and metal studs. They look like they are made for kicking things you don’t like.
A man walked up to me and said something along the lines of “You sure look like you like to freak, girl.” He leered for a second, then turned and walked back to his seat. WTF.
It bothered me a little, not necessarily because I felt threatened – after all, it was in a public place during the day with lots of people around – but more because I knew he wanted to be threatening, and I knew that there are many women who would feel threatened.
We’ve discussed the problems with catcalling before on Skepchick, but it’s something I think about a lot. Most of the time, I really genuinely enjoy interacting with strangers. I like smiling at them, talking with them, making random people on the subway laugh. So if a stranger gives me a compliment, I accept it cheerfully.
Of course, this was not a compliment, nor was it intended to be. It made me wonder: is there anything a woman can say to a man she does not know that will instantly make him feel powerless, or worthless, or degraded? And if not, is that just because of the fact that most men will always be more physically powerful than most women, or is it because as a society we still have a ways to go before we achieve true equality of the sexes?
I imagine that were the sexes reversed in my situation, a guy would just roll his eyes and turn away . . . which is exactly what I did. However, I think a guy in my situation wouldn’t have given it much more thought.
I’m curious how the women here react in situations like this. I considered leaving the coffee shop, but it was cold outside and I had a good ten minutes before the bus arrived. After thinking it over, I decided that I’d rather stay anyway, instead of being driven from a coffee shop by one inconsiderate jerk. So I stayed, drank my coffee, and ignored him completely. What would you have done?
Guys like that ruin life for guys like me.
Sorry that men suck.
I stole my catch-all response to these guys from a wiser and gutsier woman: I hold up my pinky finger and look sympathetic.
Quick, concise, and the meaning cannot be mistaken by any man. I’m telling him, “If you’re going to sexually demean me, I’m going to do it right back.”
You’re right, Rebecca. The difference between a random, flirtatious comment and a demeaning, threatening taunt is hard to define, but it’s obvious to any woman who has experienced both.
I figured out long ago that any sort of verbal response to the latter only gives the guy exactly what he’s after (your attention), yet I’m unable NOT to respond because to ignore it feels like I am accepting the behavior as something inevitable. So the pinky finger, for me, provides a satisfying alternative requiring minimal effort.
It would be interesting to see this man’s reaction if another, larger, man walked up to him and said “You sure look like you like to freak, girl.â€
That was way too creepy. I probably would have done the same as you, but, in my opinion, a sharp retort wouldn’t have been out of line. A sharp kick would have been better, but maybe not entirely appropriate.
I can imagine a woman being able to say something pretty cutting and cruel that would make a man feel worthless, but not with the same ease as the reverse situation, and especially not with strangers. I think it’s because of both reasons you mentioned. That ease of casual degradation is built into our culture, and if you complain too much about it, you’ll get accused of it just being your problem.
You did well. You thought of yourself first and did what was best for you.
Another possibility–and I have done this to particularly egregious male aholes when I have been stressed to the limit by the difficulty of trying to function in a demeaning-to-women world–strut around the fool, tsking all the time, staring at his crotch, and say in a loud voice, what a tiny little dick you are.
I think I would have done the same as you. I think it’s important not to dignify his actions with any reaction at all. I don’t think he was being threatening, in the sense of actual intent to do harm, but just wanted to act threatening for the entertainment of seeing your reaction. No reaction, no (or hopefully, less) incentive to keep doing it.
As I tried to impress on my sisters, growing up; Men are Pigs.
Obviously, I don’t have any real insight into how women would react to that situation, but I think you may be wrong about how men would if reversed. I think most of us would be telling people about it for days. “The weirdest thing happened to me in the coffee shop. I had on this new pair of Docs that were making me feel pretty cool and…”
I had a guy approach me in a coffee shop once and say, “I find you extremely desirable.” To be fair I don’t think English was his first language, but I was having kind of a bad day, so I said loudly, “PLEASE GO AWAY AND LEAVE ME ALONE RIGHT NOW.” (Yeah, I did say “please”. What can I do? I’m Canadian.)
I like interacting with strangers, too, even strange men (though I’m married and thus not in the hunt), but when a man says something like that it’s not because he wants to have a relationship or even a conversation with you. Either he wants to intimidate you or he’s seriously clueless.
A man who wants to get to know you comes up with a lame excuse to talk to you – “Hey, nice hat,” or “Is that the latest Harry Potter book? How is it?” or “Have you tried the carrot cake muffins? Are they any good?” – and goes from there.
Since it was a public place, I would have ignored him, too. Although later I probably would have vented to a friend and thought of a witty response that I *should* have said.
@saganite: You’re right that by interacting with him, you’d be giving him what you want. And I’ll bet if she would have gotten angry and said something nasty he probably would have just said something like “Ooooh, and feisty, too!” or just made it seem like she’s the one with the problem.
I would have used the boots.
Not dignifying his leering with a response is the safe way to go. Someone acting in such a way is scum. A cutting remark like Logicel said would be good, but I like KristinMH’s response the best. It says, “Everyone l0ok over here and see the annoying pest!”
Yeah, were the situations reversed, I’d have to with KristinMH’s, sans the “please”, since I’m an American bastard.
I also, probably unwisely, say “Nope!” when panhandlers say “Hey, can I ask you something?”. People with legitimate questions or goods get straight to the point with “do you know how to get to this place?” or “fresh fish! We catch ’em, you buy em!” But I digress…
@saganite: I like the pinky idea, very nice!
@KristinMH: Your point about lame excuses (which I usually find very charming) reminded me of one of my favorite anecdotes. I was standing in line at the post office a few winters ago, waiting forever as everyone was mailing out and picking up Xmas packages, so I was in a bit of a bad mood. While rooting around in my bag, I dropped a mitten. An old man walked by, leaned down, and picked it up. Handing it back to me he said (with the best smile ever), “You know, in my day the ladies dropped handkerchiefs.”
I had a roommate who used to shove a finger up her nose and start digging whenever she’d get catcalls or unwelcome comments from men – while completely ignoring the offender, of course. While not a retaliatory gesture, most guys found it very unexpected and it worked well to defuse the situation.
@Rebecca:
That old guy kicks ass. I bet you he gets ALL the GILFS.
Oddly enough, I saw you this very morning… you were getting onto the very same train I was exiting, but one door up. And I noticed you were wearing the new boots, and was glad you made a good decision.
Which is why I’m gonna agree with dezrah and say that you should have USED the boots. I’ve seen them, they’d have made the point quite well!
I think you did the smartest thing. Dealing rationally with other people’s insecurities, especially men, is dangerous ground. The advantage you have in a coffee shop is the guy was probably sober.
The only other approach I have seen work is a friend of mine when similarly approached responded loudly enough for all to hear, “I WILL NOT TOUCH YOUR PENIS, AND IF YOU ASK AGAIN I’LL CALL THE POLICE.” It worked that once. The guy scooted with haste.
Speaking as a man I can honestly say that men suck. Even though I have never done such a thing nor ever would I can understand where the impulse comes from. This scares me more than a little.
@Expatria: “Which is why I’m gonna agree with dezrah and say that you should have USED the boots.”
I don’t know if you’re kidding, but what the guy did was likely not illegal. Assault certainly is. Creeps are not worth going to jail over.
For that particular comment, I’m not sure, but when I’ve been hit with “nice tits” (or some other word for breasts) I usually look at the guy and say, “yeah, but yours are bigger.”
@Expatria: O RLY? Weird! You should’ve screamed down the platform at me. That would have been entertaining.
The guy was probably just trying to get a reaction from you, one way or the other. If you had taken him up on his presumed “offer,” most likely he would have slunk away, not sure how to handle such a forward woman.
You handled it perfectly. Rolling your eyes let him know you didn’t take him seriously, and holding your ground showed you didn’t think he was worth worrying about. Not that any of those things consciously went through your mind. Being a strong woman, that kind of behavior is, I imagine, your default setting.
Is there anything you can say to a strange man that’s as instantly demeaning as a threatening catcall is to a woman? The only thing I can think of would be something like, “Faggot.”
Although the type of guy who would actually feel emasculated by that would probably hit you in response, and given male privilege in our society, you probably couldn’t make assault charges stick because you provoked him. Hooray.
But that’s an interesting distinction, of course. What’s instantly demeaning to a woman is to call her a slut, i.e. a woman. What’s instantly demeaning to a man is, essentially, to call him a fag, i.e. a woman. (I’m going, here, by patriarchal gender roles where “woman” becomes essentially interchangeable with “semen receptacle” and male homosexuality is somehow effeminate despite the fact that there are no vaginae involved.)
Know what I love? When I’m walking aroud the city and some dumbass guy stops in his car and asks, “Sweetie, do you want a ride? I can give you a ride, honey, it must suck walking!”
This once happened once at 5:30am during the winter when it was pitch-black and no one else was on the road except me and the truck that rolled up behind me and stopped. (And this is only one example of many.)
I MEAN COME ON!
I was so pissed.
After reading this I knew I had to put in my first post. “You sure look like you like to freak, girl.†WTF? Was there Disco Music playing in the background of this coffee shop or something? Did a time portal to the 70’s with a light up dance floor magically appear? Sorry that was probably the dumbest thing I ever read. Actually what I think you should have done is thrown your coffee in his face and say, “I’m Rick James B**ch!”. And I would just like to apologize for the stupidity of some men. BTW I love SGU and the Skepchicks keep up the good work.
I live in Rio de Janeiro, in fact I lived here all my life. Here we have a very sexist, machist society, maybe less then in other location in Brazil but still this kind of approach is very common here, and it is even more common then you think since we are a much more sexual society.
When I was a teenager there was a friend of mine that once got a rude “come on” when she was entering a bus. She had a Popsicle, and one of the cave man on the back, the part that in those times were before you pay, said “How I wished I were this Popsicle”, she answered right away, “for what? just to have a stick plugged on your ___?”. All the other neanderthals that were with him laughed at him and she simply passed to the payed sector.
@Joshua:
I might have elaborated on that and responded at somewhat greater length: “And you look like you like to suck dick!”
(Yes, in an ideal world, that would not be an insult. There’s no crime in giving pleasure well, etc. But the recipient would take it as such, and it’s the sort of thing I could imagine myself saying if I’d been in the coffeeshop with Rebecca, particularly if I hadn’t had my caffeine yet. I’m not exactly temperate in the mornings.)
When I was in high school, my bum was pinched during a firedrill. I’m a fight-not-flight kind of girl, so I turned around with my fist ready and yelled “What the f*ck!”. The guy took off running. These days I have to be cilvilized, so I just smile and ignore them. They annoy me, but it’s better than an assault charge.
Hey, I just realized — if you had a vampire boyfriend, you could rely on him to protect you!! ZOMG!!
/me ducks and bravely runs away
Eye rolls, looking disgusted, or just ignoring them are how I respond.
So I was walking home a couple months ago all bundled up in scarf and hat because it was windy. Just as I was getting near the sleazy porn store that I have to walk past, a man who had just come out of said sleazy porn store approaches me and says, “Have you always been so beautiful?”
Granted, not the worst thing to have yelled at you, but it didn’t escape me that he’d just come out of the SKETCHY PORN STORE so my knee jerk reaction was one of complete disgust that was written very very clearly on my face. So clearly that his response was, “Well, at least you made a funny face!”
I find these sorts of comments so ridiculous that my immediate reaction is to laugh in their faces. It’s like the signs in the primate house at the zoo: “Don’t mock the baboons.” It’s not terribly different. These machismo guys don’t like looking stupid or being made fun of so laughing directly at them will be confusing and then infuriating. Go full on cackle and be sure to show your teeth!
Upon waking each day, we will all encounter a significant number of imbeciles while navigating from here to there. To expect one’s day to be filled with mutually satisfactory interaction with sentient beings is unrealistic. People who accost strangers exhibiting some aberrant behavior are obviously suffering from a veritable cornucopia of mental issues that will not be etched away by the verbal application of caustic comments. Better to ignore such pests outwardly, while spending five-seconds finding inner peace in the absolute surety the cretin will one day dig a hole they cannot squirm out of.
Being of non-female gender, I cannot imagine being on the receiving end of such comments/acts.
In first-year law school torts class, you learn that it is not an assault on a person to ask them to engage in various intimate physical acts. For the species to continue, ultimately there is either a question or some other unacceptable option.
While some of the above-discussion seems to suggest that the comments were objectively repulsive, are not they in-fact subjectively repulsive? Not to detract from the very real feelings induced by the question and the interpretation of the *look* – but it seems to me that for any person, it is possible to find an anti-person who can induce similar feelings by use of language and actions that others would either find innocuous and maybe some may find welcoming or seductive.
In an alternate universe with an alternate person similarly dressed who in fact loves to freak and admires glances that some may consider as leering, the outcome could have been much more different and also differently-heated, perhaps?
Bell-shaped distributions being what they are, the actual content of the verbal exchange seems to be irrelevant – isn’t what is important is understanding what to do when on the receiving end of such actions.
The leer would seem to similarly treated as the verbal exchange. Mr. *Lech* is not a mind-reader who may want to meet women who love to freak and he could have intended to have provided an admiring glance (admiring that is to a person who in fact loves to freak). (Couldn’t he have?) (Is it wrong to ask this question?)
How wrong and insensitive is it of me to think that this topic is largely subjective and that the real question is what to do when someone approaches you with what you perceive to be offensive language/action and there is no real objective measure of the offensiveness quotient of any exchange?
Men can be pigs, no doubt about it.
Y_S_G
Malkavian2008 “After reading this I knew I had to put in my first post. “You sure look like you like to freak, girl.†WTF? Was there Disco Music playing in the background of this coffee shop or something?”
Yeah, I wondered about that too. What does the verb “to freak” mean? I’m old and a bit out of touch so the first thing I thought of was the Thriller zombie dance. I’m guessing that’s not what he meant, though.
The effectiveness of such comments against the large population of women is that in our culture we have created such a strong binding between a woman’s self worth and her appearance. It is an easy shot for a man to make as most women are sensitive to how they look in this culture. This is easy to take advantage of since “looks” can be evaluated so casually by even a stranger, whereas, other qualities cannot.
I cannot think of something nearly as universal for men, though. A lot of men put their self esteem in their power or strength, though many geeks instead place it in their intelligence. A lot of fathers put their pride and self-esteem in providing for their family, but not every man is a father. And it would be hard to come up with an insult to affect that part of his self esteem without knowing him personally. Maybe if you saw a man in an unemployment line and made a comment about it.
You could go for penis jokes or sexual prowess jokes, but the man would know that you know nothing about him in that regard. Though, it always leaves the ex-girlfriend with a way to humiliate a man in front of his friends.
I think that other than how one looks sounds or smells, there is nothing that a stranger can make fun of about that person. So if your self esteem is only loosely tied to those easily evaluated attributes, a stranger hold no power over you in this manner.
Yikes, I have a friend nicknamed Trouble. Whenever any male on the street cat-calls or says something intimidating to her she typically says something to the effect of, “women don’t appreciate it when you talk to them like that”, and it’s the way she says it. Not with contempt or scorn but rathier matter-a-factly. Like, “oh you poor retard, you don’t understand appropriate social interaction, let me correct you. ” As if no one informed her that those comments are to make women feel weak or vunerable. She is fearless. Also she says it loud enough so others can hear how this guy is being a complete douche bag. The only down side is that more than one guy has responded by threatening to punch her. She counters by getting more aggressive and not backing down herself. I could see how this could one day lead to problems.
Whooo, that’s a complex question you raised there. Why is it that there’s not really anything a woman can say to a man to make him feel threatened?
The typical physical strength differences are definitely a part of it: the “average woman” is not a threat to the “average man”. (It’s a little weird to abstract that on to “most women” and “most men”, given that I know a dozen women who could kick my ass at the drop of a hat, and I’m a better fighter than average… but that’s what happens.)
However, there’s also a great deal of perceptional psychology going on. For example, many women perceive a verbally-threatening man as a likely rapist. There’s an odd mix of realistic fears (rape really does happen, and it’s horrible) and disproportionate perception (there aren’t rapists lurking around every corner, but it can feel that way).
To top that off, there’s social education differences. Boys are mostly taught that the majority of threats are posturing, and that if they aren’t, they shouldn’t be afraid because it’s “unmanly”. Girls are taught that any man they don’t know is dangerous, and so these kinds of implied threats evoke a much more visceral response.
And there are a myriad of other things that have an effect. This is a tough problem to lick, and it’s compounded by the real risk that any damaging verbal response on the part of the woman might escalate the situation.
Better education for boys about treating women with proper respect (that is, the respect they show a peer) would help. More women with serious defensive capability would help. More men willing to assist and/or intervene in such situations would help dramatically. I’m not sure what would “fix” it except slow and comprehensive social change.
Sorry to double-post, but I had an additional thought: why did everyone else in that area ignore that behavior?
If my father had been there and I’d done nothing, he’d have smacked me upside my head for not getting involved when someone was being an asshole.
@YourSkepticalGuy: I can’t tell if your serious or being sarcastic. Obviously this guy wanted nothing more to intimidate Rebecca. Like the school yard bully who feels a high by making others feel weak.
@SkepGeek: All though I do have to say, I had a coworker in the military who had a saying, “If going up to random women and asking “do you wanna fuck” only works 1% of the time, then I just have to ask 100 women. ”
I might have thought it was funny except for I had seen him and his kind in action. Harrasing alot of women until they finally found a women who was looking for that kind of attention.
@skepticalhippie:
And if he gets kicked in the balls only 1% of the time. . . .
“is that just because of the fact that most men will always be more physically powerful than most women, or is it because as a society we still have a ways to go before we achieve true equality of the sexes?”
Sorry if I’m being overly analytical, but isn’t saying something like the “true equality of the sexes” like someone saying they’re a “true christian”? “True” in most cases is an undefined defined absolute.
True could mean absolute parity between genders, physical size and strength, both sexes can carry and birth a child and breastfeed it, no one (or everyone) wears skirts and high heels and women don’t grow their hair long and preen and put makeup on and shave their legs, etc, or at least the men do? There really wouldn’t be 2 genders at that point though.
Or it could mean everyone treating everyone else the same, despite the stark differences between the genders, no gender typing from birth, and all occupations are equally populated with both genders, from Pro Football and computer programing to homemaking and prostitution? In a world like that, not being freely bisexual would probably be considered sexist.
The bottom line is that there are differences between the genders, which is, quite frankly, kind of nice most of the time, but everyone has their own threshold at which noticing or acting on those differences becomes sexism. “Women can get pregnant” vs. “Women should get pregnant.” If you’re extremely religious, both of those statements are true and neither is probably very sexist to you, but if you’re not…
Being female, you’re obviously going to have a broader definition of sexism than I would, but to me being sexist involves discrimination. Hitting on the opposite gender (which it sort of sounds like he was trying to do, maybe testing the waters a bit) isn’t sexism to me. It’s… well it’s just what people do isn’t it? (Clearly I am not an expert on hitting on women) I’m not defending the guy, but I think your problem with him wasn’t that he was being sexist, it’s that he was being a jerk. If he had said something nice about your boots, that would technically still be sexist, assuming that he wouldn’t have said anything if you were a guy wearing boots? and if you were a small guy wearing some pretty boots, it’s just as likely he might have said something as well. And if some giant woman who felt assured that you wouldn’t sock her one had come up to you and said the exact same thing, would that be sexist? Catty, sure, but sexist?
Bleh, I’m thinking about it too hard. I’m going to give my brain a Charlie Horse. (Or a Charline Horse) Anyway, I don’t know what my point is. I’m rambling. I just caught the “true equality” line and my brain went off on a tangent – as it tends to do.
@skepticalhippie: There’s this weird quirk of nature that one of the most powerful motivators is sporadic success. It encourages gambling, good luck charms, superstitions and, unfortunately, really bad pick-up lines.
@Dynotaku: Sorry, I thought it would be obvious that when I write “true equality,” I’m referring to, for instance, the ability of a woman to enjoy a cup of coffee without a man feeling the need to denigrate her. Not that men should suddenly start having babies.
And no, that’s not just what men do. Barf.
Yes, it has happened to me a couple of times. When my kids were much younger and I had been divorced from their mother I would often take them to a park near our house for them to play. They would be running around on the playground playing and I would be sitting watching. Three times I had women walk up to me visably upset and hostile and demand to know what I was doing at the playground. One even said she was going to call the police. I was almost always the only man at the playground. It always, well you know.
@skepticalhippie: I don’t know that yourskepticalguy is in fact being sarcastic. As @Steve: already pointed out:
So maybe what Rebecca interpreted as vile, lecherous and an attempt to intimidate, this guy viewed as an effective compliment and pick up line followed by confident appreciation. There really is no way of knowing for certain without hunting him down and getting an explanation of his words and actions.
autotroph “Girls are taught that any man they don’t know is dangerous, and so these kinds of implied threats evoke a much more visceral response.”
You ain’t just whistlin’ Dixie. When I was hitting puberty, my mother warned me that any guy might rape me if he got aroused enough, and I would be unable to stop him.
As long as girls are subjected to a worldview in which it is assumed that all men are dangerous, and boys are taught that aggression – physical, verbal, and otherwise – is “manly”, I think that situations like Rebecca’s will continue to occur.
@killyosaur42: I appreciate your willingness to give a third party the benefit of the doubt since he’s not here to defend himself. However, you’re wrong that none of us know what his intention was. None of us are mindreaders, but there are many times in life when one can deduce what another person is thinking based upon their actions. He was not trying to compliment me.
In college, I had a guy make a stick figure drawing of what he wanted to do with me and give it to me during class. I just sat quietly and stared at my book. He never even spoke to me and I avoided him the rest of the quarter. If it happened now, I would respond by drawing a picture of him lying in a pool of his own blood.
I don’t get approached…having 2 kids tagging along tends decrease one’s attractiveness to most men.
Something I’ve noticed since moving to London – black guys will suck their teeth at me. It’s very odd. It’s shorthand for ‘hey baby you look good, I’d do you’, I think (hope), but I can’t decide if it’s more threatening or less threatening than an outright catcall.
@killyosaur42: You know what, your right. This probably is really just a big misunderstanding, maybe by asking Rebecca if she likes to freak he was was just making small talk. Really this is Rebeccas fault. If she didn’t want random men asking her if she likes to freak then maybe she shouldn’t be wearing whore boots that give off the impresion that she is a women of weak morals and indeed likes to freak with random men.
The Washington Post’s humor columnist (and skeptic) Gene Weingarten gave advice to a woman who got cut off in traffic by a guy who then “rolled down his window and said “F— you, you fat, disgusting, ugly pig!”
His advice to the woman: “I’ve said this before: What you should have done is hold your thumb and index finger about an inch apart, and driven off. That’s it. Point made.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2006/11/07/DI2006110700573.html
It is hard for me as a rather mediocre looking male to imagine something akin to a cat call being made at me. I think once some girls drove by me roller-blading in college and honked their convertible, and I did like that. But that is just as likely to be a false memory in my case.
That’s just… weird. The problem with reacting to him is that he has already demonstrated that he lacks basic social controls. In this way, he is potentially dangerous. Reacting could elicit a severely more aggressive attack.
That being said, in a public place, sometimes being loud and honest works best. A very loud “I’m sorry, what did you just say to me? And you think that’s an appropriate thing to say?” such that it gets the attention of everyone around you might be enough to at least shame him and demonstrate that not all women are willing to put up with his BS.
@autotroph: Because we live in a culture where it’s a-okay to leer and catcall women and it’s actually seen as normal.
And another point that some of you may or may not find worthy of discussion: prior to the incident, I was planning to wear a similar outfit this weekend, but with the addition of a funny yet suggestive t-shirt. Now I’m thinking, should I not? Or do I wear it all proudly?
@YourSkepticalGuy: Are you kidding me? There was no excuse for his behavior. None. He was a lech and an idiot and disgusting. Period. He wasn’t at a freak party. THEY WERE ON THE STREET.
It’s intimidating and threatening. Obviously you’re not a woman, because you’ve never been leered at or catcalled by some man who thinks he has a right to do it, just because you’re a woman.
And that’s what it is: These men think they have a right to say whatever they please to women because they are men. Period.
What a boor… Obviously, this person was deprived a childhood role model on being a human.
When I was a young teen, I once said something disrespectful to my sister within hearing of my father. He took me aside and explained that women experience certain situations very differently than men, that they might experience fear where a man might feel he is only trying to be funny. He calmly suggested if I was unable to understand the concept he was more than willing to manufacture a situation where I might experience physical intimidation. Magic! Without resorting to violence, or even raising his voice, I intuitively understood the message…
In the future, I suggest you respond to a comment as follows:
Idiot: “Girl, you look like you like to freak!”
You: “Yes I do, but not with you…”
–Boomer
@killyosaur42: “this guy viewed as an effective compliment and pick up line followed by confident appreciation”
Hahaha, what? No. If he views that as an effective compliment and pick-up line, he’s a god damned idiot.
Skepgeek – I hear you. I spent most of my life astoundingly obese. And then I started running, and one day I was running, 150lbs less, no shirt, just shoes and shorts, and a truck full of 20-something women drove by and hooted. I had to stop and look around to see just who exactly they were calling out to. When I figured out it was me, it brought up a whole slew of emotions. I can’t imagine what it’s like for that to be a regular part of life.
Just go around looking like a tired, grouchy, frumpy, stagnate-at-home mom all the time, and I guarantee those jerks will leave you alone!
@Ezekiel: It’s weird in a sense that it SHOULD be weird, but it’s not weird because shit like this happens all the time.
That’s why whe people say things like killyosaur42 implying that maybe they were just trying to compliment you, I want to start punching people. IT IS NOT A COMPLIMENT.
Alternatively, simply turn away while making a shooing motion with a free hand — as if to shoo away an annoying insect.
The bottom line, nothing you ever say or do to such an @ss will ever make him understand the depth of his ignorance.
–Boomer
@jules505: It doesn’t matter, jules. You can look completely frumpy and unwashed, and STILL get catcalled. It happens to me when I’m in sweats and a hoody and I’m wearing no makeup and you can’t even see my face. They can tell I’m female, so they take the opportunity to catcall.
Again: These men aren’t trying to impress or compliment. They are trying to show their manly-manness. They do it because they think, as men, they have control over women and can say or do as they please, because they are men. Period. That’s it. It’s a way for them to say, “HEY I AM A MAN AND YOU ARE JUST A WEAK LITTLE GIRL HEAR ME ROAR!”
@Rebecca:
Screw em. Wear what you want. And ya know what? The more I think about it, the more I believe that simply acting like you have no idea what the guy wanted would have been the best approach…
Dude: Aww baby, you look like you like to freak!
Rebecca: What? What does that mean?
Dude: Umm. I mean, you look like you like to get down!
Rebecca: I’m not following…
Dude: I’m saying you’re fly, you look fly…
Rebecca: Fly? Like the bug?
Dude: Aww, forget it!
At least it would be an amusing situation. There are few more pleasing things than feigning ignorance of perfectly normal speech :)
And I wonder what it says about my mental health that I’m imagining this conversation in a VERY similar manner to Anton Chigurrh’s conversation with the gas station attendant in No Country For Old Men… You should totally have pulled out a coin and had him call it!
And let me just say, when I say “they thin, as men” I am only talking about men who do this kind of crap. There are plenty of men out there who are way, way, way above that. Thank GOD.
Well safety first. It’s pretty sad that women have to keep that in mind. For instance, if someone is crazy enough to make a comment like that to you, or say cut you off in traffic, or something to make you uncomfortable….they are looking for a reaction. Also, they are probably a little unbalanced in some way. No response is the safe response.
That said, wear what you want to wear. ALWAYS. don’t let assholes influence what you wear. Let your cool friends influence you! Seriously, your sense of style rocks. You aren’t a bland American Eagle type woman and I like it.
When I was in France with my young teenage daughter… it was very interesting. Men actually meow. No really, they make a cat sound. On the Eiffel Tower a worker there came over to me and told me “you have a very beautiful daughter”. But oddly, it was all in a sense of fun. She would blush and laugh, but no one was over the top. Simply a “looking good girl” but in French. Mind you, mom was right there. What I found funny is that didn’t stop anyone!
I do have to say that I went with this same daughter to a specialist doctor yesterday. The doctor came in the room and said “oh, now is this your sister? Oh your mom! Wow, your mom is very young looking.” At my age, yes I will even take that lame a compliment! (The doctor was in his early 60’s, and after that compliment to me he looked HAWT).
And the ONLY thing that may make a man feel even slightly as uncomfortable is if you call him a “faggot” but even then it’s just a taste, since it means they have to be a homophobic bigot anyway, so they likely feel just as offended by teh gays on a daily basis.
I think only gay men can sympathize, and only in certain situations.
@kittynh: They actually aren’t necessarily looking for a reaction. Most catcallers just want to show off their big penis (which is likely tiny). If you DO react, they tend to shut up, because they don’t expect a reaction. Not always, but most of the time.
Still, safety first. Just don’t react.
@Rebecca: I would need more details to give you my opinion. For the most part women have the right to wear what they want and not be harassed. However, women who wear a shirt that says “look at my tits when you’re talking to me” shouldn’t be offended to find men staring at her tits.
So when you look at my last comment compared to this one I’m a giant hypocrite, and I’m fine with that.
@Rebecca:
Clearly you should wear whatever the hell you want to because damnit it’s your business and nobody else’s. Certainly not jackasses like the one in question.
@skepticalhippie: If I wear a low-cut shirt, I’m aware that people will glance at my tits. I totally do that too — nice tits/cleavage are hard to ignore! But there is a HUGE difference between an appreciative glance and a leer. HUGE. It’s almost always easy to know the difference.
If you’re wearing a shirt that says “LOOK AT MY TITS!” then yeah … don’t get pissed when someone is lookin’ at your tits. But it’s unfair to us (as women) that we can’t even go outside sometimes without getting catcalled and leered at.
@Rebecca: I’m referring to, for instance, the ability of a woman to enjoy a cup of coffee without a man feeling the need to denigrate her.
I guess my point was that it didn’t seem sexist, just jerky. I was off on a tangent there, sorry.
@marilove: Obviously you’re not a woman, because you’ve never been leered at or catcalled by some man who thinks he has a right to do it, just because you’re a woman.
I guess if you’re a woman, getting cat-calls all the time is tiring and possibly threatening, but if you’re a a guy and a woman does it to you… well, I’ll let you know if it ever happens, but I assume it’d be kind of nice every once in a while.
@Rebecca:
Naturally, on the weekend I go out of town.
@Blake Stacey: Well, I’ll be out of town as well, so it’s a wash.
@Dynotaku: Uuuh, catcalls are always sexist. ALWAYS.
It’s not about making a compliment. It’s about power. Men catcall because they think, as men, that they have the right to say and do whatever they want to women. Period.
@Dynotaku: “A man walked up to me and said something along the lines of “You sure look like you like to freak, girl.†He leered for a second, then turned and walked back to his seat. WTF. ”
And who in their right mind would say that isn’t sexist?! What is not sexist about it? Not only did he feel it was his right to walk u pto her, but he felt it was her right to be sexually suggestive to her, and he also felt it was his right to leer at her. And call her “girl” to boot.
Not sexist? What?
@marilove: Damn I fail at typing and grammar. “Not only did he feel it was his right to walk up to her” … “but he felt it was HIS right to be sexually suggestive to her…”
wee!
@marilove: Oh yeah, totally agree, but this does bring up another question that’s always made me wonder. Don’t you think there’s a continium of minding ones own business to getting attention? And somewhere along the line there might be some confusion?
Not defending the douche bag in Rebeccas story as that is out and out intimidation. But you can’t say that you haven’t experienced, or at least witness a ugly guy leer at a girl and it caused a look of disgustion and then a hot guy leer at a girl and it caused her to smile and blush.
@Dynotaku: I remember one time (I was mid-20s at the time) walking down the street late at night and a car full of women cruised by, leering and catcalling. I was the only one walking there and theirs was the only car on the street, so it was obviously intended for me. I was so startled, I didn’t know how to react. I can’t say that I felt either complimented or threatened. It was just …weird. I think my first thought was “Oh, they’re drunk.”
feel free to ignore my grammer and spelling
@Steve: I think it’s different for men because men aren’t completely talked down to like they are children, they aren’t told when they can and cannot have children, they aren’t thought of as “the other” all the time, etc. We live in a patriarchal society, so when a man gets catcalled or leered at, it’s out of the ordinary and maybe funny, but it’s not out of the ordinary and never funny when it happens to a woman.
@Steve: Ha!
Any time I’ve had a similar experience my first thought has either been “Oh, they’re drunk…” or “Hmm. They’re being ironic. My self esteem’s bad enough already without you, jerks!”
I think there’s a big difference between being hit on and being catcalled, and being catcalled is basically almost never pleasant. It’s a demeaning thing for men and women alike.
Now, as for being hit on randomly…that’s another story!
My boyfriend is a feminist (I wouldn’t date a man who wasn’t) but he still wasn’t prepared one day when we were coming home from dinner and a jeepful of douchbags pulled up and said, “Nice ass!” and when he turned around and told them to shut up, they laughed at him.
He was much more upset than me. He had never been made to feel so worthless and powerless. There was nothing he could do. His words didn’t affect them and they just sped away. He even snapped at me when I tried to comfort him. I’m used to it, of course, but I usually still feel cold and a little fearful inside when it happens.
Once, when I as in a really bad mood (new shoes were cutting my feet and I wanted to get home but every step was torture) a group of men going the other way stopped and one of them started leering at me. Normally I’d sink inward and just keep going, but this time I whipped out my keys and brandished them and screamed, “Shut up!” He winced and I spun around and left.
I don’t know how he took it because I never looked back. I kind of regret losing my temper, but it doesn’t excuse that he tried to make me feel small and vulnerable because he thought there was nothing I could do about it.
@Rebecca: Wear it proudly. We won’t get anywhere by caving to pressure.
@skepticalhippie: “Don’t you think there’s a continium of minding ones own business to getting attention?” I’m not sure what you mean here? Because the ones doing the leering and catcalling should be minding THEIR own business.
And yes, I will admit that sometimes there is a difference if it’s an ugly guy vs. a good looking guy, but also context matters. I’ve gotten COMPLIMENTS from complete strangers (male) — ugly, good-looking, old, whathaveyou — that were not offensive nor what I would call leers or catcalls. I’ve gotten LEERS and CATCALLS from good looking men just as I have ugly men, and both make you feel just as uncomfortable.
Walking up to a girl and saying, “Hi, my name is Jeff, and I just wanted to say that you have a great smile” is not a leer or a catcall and it’s not what we’re discussing right now. (Though even then it can be annoying because sometimes you just don’t want to interact with people, but it’s not the same “grosssssss” feeling you get after you’re leered at.)
AAAAND, there are a lot of women who think catcalls and such ARE compliments — because hey, they are getting attention about their looks so it must mean they are worth something! They AREN’T compliments, but some women do find them to be, and that’s troublesome in itself and just another example of our patriarchal society — a woman’s worth is based on her looks first and foremost.
@marilove: I guess what some of the fellas are saying is that we should be grateful that they’ve honored us with their attention and smile and say thank you like good little ladies. I mean, aren’t we all just waiting for someone to compliment us on our bootyliciousness and doability? I for one definitely need the constant reminders that I’m just here for the enjoyment of others, otherwise I might get thoughts in my head and do stuff other than preen and get ready for someone to give me a baby.
Conversations like this always remind me that “skeptic” does not automatically mean “with-it”.
And to make the distinction between a compliment and a catcall, I got on the streetcar one day, feeling miserable and looking, I thought, like a drowned rat and this young guy wearing a hat saw me as I was taking a seat and tipped his cap to me with a polite smile. It made me feel awesome.