Skepchick Quickies, 7.28


Jen is a writer and web designer/developer in Columbus, Ohio. She spends too much time on Twitter at @antiheroine.

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  1. Hi there!

    This is what disgusts me the most about the “Rape by Deception” case:

    “You’re a rape victim? [comforting glance] Yeah, I know how you feel, I am too. Huh? Oh no, I didn’t get my face shoved into the ground. No, no he didn’t have a gun. What? No, he didn’t slip anything into my drink. When I asked him what he… did? He told me that he was a CEO, but, … he was in HR! Believe me, I know how horrible it is to be raped. Stay strong, sister, you can survive this like I did … [nods]”.

    But in the case cited, it’s actually worse, since the implication was that “being Palestinian” is every bit as evil and horrendous as throwing someone to the ground and forcing yourself on them.

    Humans suck. :(

  2. As far as the Rape by Deception prosecution goes, I’m guessing no, America won’t make that the norm, considering we as a country have trouble viewing fucking sexual assault as a crime.

    And on the note of the dog receiving communion; oh, hey, look, it’s perfect evidence of how a loud minority can make the quiet majority look bad. I understand the communion is sacred, but are you seriously saying that Jesus would be angry that the priest gave it to a dog? Do you think Jesus is going to get pissed off at someone doing something heart warming, even if it slightly breaks a rule of tradition and harms no one? Is that the Jesus you gave your soul to? Seriously? Because I want to know what part of the scripture says, “Jesus was a humorless dickbitch.” Please, cite me a reference here.

  3. I think if there were rape by deception laws crafted, they would have to be crafted very carefully. There’s a big difference in some random guy pretending to be a kindred soul and a guy pretending to be a dr. to get a free look at her tang. I would think that if such laws were crafted, it would need to be focused at people posing as someone of trust, such as a bf, a dr. or someone a person should feel comfortable with.

    I also find it somewhat disturbing that all the mundane situations of fraud rape charges so far have all had to do with money. It’s kinda purpetuationg the notion that women are just gold diggers. I’d find it much more plausible that someone would go to bed with someone who was faking a shared interest than someone waving money around.

  4. Arguably most people lie a little while trying to impress a date. How does one distinguish between someone who’s doing that, and a “pickup artist?”

    Would pattern of behavior be a consideration? The scale of the lie? There doesn’t seem to be a clear division between talking oneself up and malicious predation in this case.

    I’m not denying the existence of pickup artists, and I’m not disputing that it is very unethical behavior. It may even be right to criminalize it. I’m pretty sure I’d recognize it if I saw it, but I don’t know how to define it.

    Does anyone have a good definition that would create a clear dividing line? That’d be very helpful I think.

  5. My immediate visceral response is to want to punish people who lie to get someone else in bed. My problem with making rape by fraud laws is that it seems to institutionalize the notion of sex as a one-way capture the flag game, typically with men on offense and women on defense.
    It’s like we’re saying “So let’s all agree that a woman has something a man wants and he has to break down her defenses to get it. Now let’s set ground rules for the game.” Feels icky.
    Also have to agree with @Draconius: , something sick about equating such cases with forcible rape. If we need these laws, call it something else.

  6. The rape by fraud is definitely not a black and white issue. On the one hand, the guy who pretends to be a billionaire is clearly an ass, but I don’t think its crossed into rape. The guy who pretends to be a gyno or any situation where the issue is one of authority is very rape. The guy who pretends to be his twin brother I think that is rape but I can see the other side. I call it fraud rape because he was pretending to be someone that she is already in a relationship. But how are you going to regulate a difference between the billionaire imitator and the twin imitator?
    And I wonder if we should skip calling it rape and create a new name for it. As @Draconius mentions, there is something very different about the fraud and the forced assault. And I think we give both more respect by creating a separate crime genre.

  7. @Zapski: Why would it be right to criminalize it? How is having a trick once a year different from once a month or once a week?

    But, I would think the Fundamentalist would jump all over this. If a man lies and says he’s not in a relationship, and she sleeps with him, to find out she was the other woman, that would give legal authority to basically criminalize adultery. Not that I’m in favor of it, there’s a whole slippery slope that opens up one you start going down this path.

  8. @Draconius:

    Not all rapes are violent, and nonviolent rapes are no less violating. They are different, certainly, but it’s unhelpful to diminish the suffering of nonviolent rape victims.

    That said “He was a dirty A-rab” isn’t rape. It’s simply heinous racism. If you couldn’t tell, it probably didn’t really matter.

  9. @Draconius:

    Oh wow, I can’t believe you just implied that most rapes aren’t really rape. Stranger rape is far rarer than acquaintance rape. That guy who raped my best friend didn’t have a gun, shove her face into the ground, or slip anything into her drink. Are you trying to tell me that she shouldn’t be upset by what he did just because it wasn’t horrifically violent?

    Also, I think the entire rape article is one giant slippery-slope fallacy by equating pick-up artists with the man who pretended to be his twin brother and the man who pretended to be a doctor. Skeptics should really know better than to fall for this fallacy.

  10. @catgirl: Yes, but whether stranger or acquaintance, its a forced assault.
    The oddity of these “fraud” rapes is that they were consensual at the time based on misrepresentation. Its the difference between a robbery and a con job.

  11. @infinitemonkey: That’s why I’d like a better definition. A con artist who gets money is a criminal, a con artist who gets sex is….? The same techniques of bamboozlement and manipulation are used, the victim is subjected to the same kind of mental influence, the same kind of misleading tactics. A con artist who takes money is usually perpetuating fraud, and promising a product that never gets delivered. The material cost is easily quantifiable in most cases. Sex is not as clear cut.

    It’s a weird thing though, since as I said, most people talk themselves up to impress a date. So where’s the line?

    It’s a tricky thing that would need a very very clear definition if it were to ever be criminalized. I’m just saying that I could see a case being made for that, based on the similarities with a more conventional con artist.

  12. @catgirl: And you just engaged in an ad hominiem. While I agree with the fact that it is a false anology, to point that out, and then say he’s wrong because he’s a bad skeptic is the pot calling the kettle black. A good skeptic shouldn’t do such things. /irony

    Now, I’d like to make sure that you and I both agree that pretending to be your twin is in a far different league than pretending to like rock music to get a girl to sleep with someone, much like using company funds to fly to the carribean to disappear is far different than borrowing lunch money and not paying it back.

  13. @infinitemonkey:

    “and then say he’s wrong because he’s a bad skeptic is the pot calling the kettle black.”

    That second paragraph was unrelated to the first. I guess I should have posted two separate comments. But it is still a slippery slope fallacy to go from pretending to be a doctor to being a pick-up artist, and I’m really surprised that no one pointed that out before me.

  14. @infinitemonkey: Often laws use a “reasonableness” test when no clear definition is forthcoming. You could say that it is illegal to solicit sex by deception where such deception would be highly offensive to a reasonable person. If it’s clearly unreasonable, a judge could dismiss it; if people might disagree, a jury could decide.

    The downside of that is that accusations of rape would probably increase, and when it comes to rape an unsubstantiated accusation can be really damaging to a basically innocent person.

  15. The problem with passing fraud rape laws without careful definitions is it could lead to instead of rolling over in the morning and saying “what have I done” to rolling over and saying “I’m going to sue.” That may not be the foregone conclusion, but it could go there if the law is not specific.

    Either way the fake doc is a criminal and the fake bf is extra slimey.

  16. @mrmisconception:

    I don’t think anyone is suggesting passing fraud rape laws “without careful definitions”. It’s the slippery-slope fallacy to imply that making it illegal to pretend to be a woman’s husband/boyfriend to trick her into sex will eventually lead to one-night stands waking up and suing over minor white lies.

  17. @catgirl: While there is potential for the abuse of any law, I think I can see where the specific concern of a regret suit might not be too far of a stretch.

    The problem is going to be that in order for a fraudulent sex law to work, it may have to assume guilt of the accused in order to avoid the pit-fall of a “he said, she said” argument. Presumably there would be no witness other than the participants, and any sleazeball who’s willing to lie his way into bed certainly won’t have an issue with lying in court. To be safe, the law may have to give greater weight to the accuser, preferring to err on the side of caution and probability. The proof of guilt will be entirely the responsibility of one person’s testimony. Those kinds of situations have to be handled very carefully, regardless of the circumstances.

    I imagine that it would be incredibly rare for a woman to want to lie to a court over a sexual encounter, but neither do I think it’s inconceivable. There are some unbalanced people out there. It might be rare, but it is a valid contingency to examine. Perhaps similar kinds of guidelines that are used in child abuse cases could be employed?

    This whole thing makes me sad, honestly. What a dumb ridiculous species humanity is that we even have to think about these kinds of things.

  18. @catgirl:

    I am guilty of not reading the full article. Last Sunday, someone linked to the article about the guy who convicted of rape for lying about being Palestinian, and I thought that the rest of the article was purely about that first case mentioned. For that, I am very sorry.

    But I still think there’s a huge difference between “No”, and “Yes, but I totally would have said No if you hadn’t lied to me”. Okay, the twin brother thing is an extreme example. And of course, the countless cases of child sexual abuse wouldn’t apply here. I was only speaking about cases where there is consent, and then the victim changes their mind.

    Sure, there may not have been any violence involved when your friend was raped, nor any kind of rape drugs. But I’m assuming that someone forced your friend to have sex against her will, correct?

    I just think that’s different from: “I only said yes because you didn’t tell me you were a different race from me!”.

  19. @Zapski: It occurs to me that I have made a profoundly stupid oversight here. I was very focused on this particular issue, and totally forgot that most rapes are not going to have any witnesses other than those involved. I apologize for that oversight, and any stupid conclusions or observations I may have expressed related to it.

  20. @catgirl:

    To be fair I did say that it was not a foregone conclusion and any time you try to anticipate unintended consequences you are prone to the slippery slope. As far as “without careful definitions” is concerned, “careful” is the key word. I simply mean that any law set out would have to be carefully crafted to keep either gender from using the “he/she lied to me” excuse to exact revenge. It may not be likey to be used in that way but it is a realistic possibility and therefore needs to be anticipated.

  21. @mrmisconception:

    It’s troubling to me that you are so worried about this revenge thing. Do you really think it’s common for people of either gender to make up rape accusations out of regret, and do you think it would become more common if people had the “excuse” about being lied to? I just don’t think it’s reasonable to consider this to become a common scenario.

    And it seems that you do think this would be likely, because otherwise why would you point out the obvious that laws need to be carefully worded? I rarely hear this kind of stuff about other laws, so I think it is a fallacy that you are taking this remote possibility so seriously.

  22. @catgirl:

    It’s troubling to me that you are so worried about this revenge thing. Do you really think it’s common for people of either gender to make up rape accusations out of regret, and do you think it would become more common if people had the “excuse” about being lied to?

    To answer the first part of the question, there is the classic case of Gary Dotson and Cathleen Crowell. In brief: Crowell needed a cover story for not being a virgin anymore, in case she turned out to be pregnant. She made up a story about being raped by an unknown man, and police pressured her into identifying Gary Dotson. She had no motivation to frame her boyfriend, and ended up accusing a stranger instead; I can very easily see the same story playing out with an ex-lover being accused instead of a stranger if a woman had motivation to do so.

  23. “Rape by deception” … that’s scary.

    I mean… the thought of somebody you’re having sex with LYING to you… it’s unthinkable, really.

    You would think our whole culture – which is founded on honesty in and around the bedroom – would already have strict laws strongly enforcing this obviously beneficial piece of legislation.

  24. @pciszek:

    Is it at all possible that maybe, just maybe, you can call up this specific case, and it sticks in the mind because of the fact that it’s so rare?

    Or was there this one case and therefore revenge/false accusations are common?

  25. @Elyse

    Actually the field of transactional analysis holds that this situation happens often enough to name a psychosocial game after it.

    Google “Rapo”

  26. So if a woman wears makeup to look prettier than in fact she is, or if she dresses up nicely when in fact she prefers to wear sweatpants, that makes her a rapist? Nah.

    I agree with the twin thing. It reminds me of Battlestar Galactica, when (SPOILER) Karl Agathon thought he was having sex with his wife, but he was in fact having sex with an exact duplicate. I’d say he was raped.

    I would also say that contraceptive sabotage is a form of rape. If a woman consents to sex on the condition that the man will withdraw before ejaculating, and he doesn’t, we call it rape. Likewise, if a someone claims to be sterile, or on the pill, knowing full well that they’re not, it would be rape. There’s an element of mens rea here – an honest accident wouldn’t be rape.

    In Canada, lying to a sex partner about your HIV status is aggravated sexual assault – people have gone to prison for knowingly infecting others. The theory is that can’t give informed consent if they don’t know you have HIV. If the victim dies of AIDS, the crime is automatically bumped up to murder instead of manslaughter, since the death was caused during the commission of another felony.

  27. I’m kind of skeeved out by how many borderline rape apologies I see in this thread. You guys, “forced assault” doesn’t just mean physical force. If a minor is coerced into sex, we still call it a crime, because it fucking is – because a minor is not in a position to consent, even if the minor thinks he or she did. Someone who was explicitly lied to was forced into a similar position of not being able to consent, because she (most of the examples being given here are characterized as female) doesn’t have relevant information and therefore capacity to consent. The person in question is being violated, and if sex is involved, she’s being sexually violated. We all that rape. Trying to qualify it in order to satisfy individual hypothetical cases strikes me as pretty awful.

  28. @Jen:
    Actually we don’t necessarily call that Rape.
    I don’t know for sure, but I doubt most people would use the word Rape for that, and I can’t really reconcile most dictionary definitions of rape with what you just described. But whatever, this seems mostly like a semantic issue. Its not like people are endorsing it.

    Seriously though how do you think punishment for the above case should compare to punishment for rape that the law is currently covering? At what point are we talking about prison?

  29. @catgirl: So are you (or anyone else for that matter) willing to take a stab at framing what such a law might look like? Be cause as much as I agree that it would be great to craft a workable law that would criminalize “rape by fraud”, I can’t come up with anything in my own mind that would be effective without being overly limiting.

    To me there are parallels to issues surrounding Freedom of Speech. We can pretty much all agree that there are certain kinds of speech that are both hateful, damaging, and despicable (Fred Phelps comes to mind), but it seems we must allow him to speak lest we find our own rights to speak being curtailed. Slippery-slope arguments get tossed around all the time in FOS discussions, and they do make some sense.

    So, again I ask, can someone please make an effort at defining the general limits of such a law? I need help thinking this through.

  30. @Jen:

    I am as incensed by rape as anyone. In fact, some people think I’m too intransigent in my definition. I have had that “what if she was teasing and said no at the last second, after saying yes up to that point” discussion, and I’ve even been known to argue that those scenes in trashy novels where the girl says no originally but some kisses and heavy petting later, driven mad by desire, finally says yes are actually rape. After all, her decision, when she was able to make it in a considered fashion, was no, and that should be that.

    But rape by deception is tricky. Deception is too vague a term. Some cases are clear-cut, like the twin case. Others, not so much. What exactly is a big enough lie to constitute deception? And where does intent come in? Maybe I’m just vain and I lie about my age. I tell everyone I’m 29, and never having crossed my mind that there is a guy out there with a cut off age of 30 for sex, I lie to him too. Then one day he sees my driver’s license and finds out I’m actually 33. Did I rape him? I think not. But if I know ahead of time he won’t have sex with anyone over 30 and I lie for that reason, then it probably is rape. I intended to trick him into sex, knowing he would normally not have consented. How do you establish that in a court of law?
    And how about this – I can reasonably expect some bits of information to be relevant to sexual consent, but not others. Before I consent, I may want to know about my proposed partner’s sexual habits up to that point, his general health condition, his basic personality, that sort of thing. Lying about these things would constitute deception. But I wouldn’t care about age, or political leanings, or whether they watch the NFL, and more importantly, I would not expect anyone else to care either. So would lying about these things constitute deception? I would have to say not without intent.

    I would also have to say that those people out there who have these unorthodox requirements for consent are not absolved from the responsibility to make sure they are adequately met before giving it. If consent hinges on age, ask to see a driver’s license. If you only sleep with Red Sox fans, figure out a way to establish if he/she is one before sleeping with him/her.

  31. @catgirl:
    Perhaps you have more faith in humans than I do, and I don’t think it would be an everyday thing, just that it could happen.

    I believe you have overestimated my concern over “this revenge thing.” I just feel that any law would have to narrowly written to prevent the possibility (as slim as it may be) of it being abused. That abuse of the law could come from outside of the victim, by the way.

    Similar things do happen, not often, but the do happen, for example, people are falsely accused of child sexual abuse (usually by someone other than the child) , people have been jailed for Satanic cult abuse (something that most psychologists now believe DOESN’T EXIST), and still others have been falsely accused of rape, and when these things happen they can destroy the lives of the accused no matter how innocent they may be.

    Don’t get me wrong, I DO NOT believe that most cases of assault, rape, or abuse are false. I think we need to take every single allegation seriously, as presumed guilty even.
    But that does not mean that we can’t try to write any law in such a way as to minimize potential abuse.

    I am not an angry or paranoid man, I do not believe that these things happen all the time, I just feel that sometimes we forget what flawed animals we are.

  32. Just to clear up a few things.
    If people could flesh out these definitions, that’d be great.

    Sex: A sexual act performed between two or more individuals that have all consented to partake in the festivities.

    Rape: Committing a sexual act on someone else, without their consent.

    Prostitution: When a sexual act is performed between two or more peoples, with promise of payment.

    Before you go on to an internal rant about how obscene I am about mentioning this, I’d like for those reading this to get it crystal clear what separates those things.

    Adult individuals performing a sexual act, in all three cases
    – need not know each other
    – need not love each other
    – need not be attracted to one another

    We all can put ourselves in the shoes of someone who wants to have sex just for the sake of having sex.
    We can all also put ourselves in the shoes of someone who is willing to have sex in order to get something out of it, be it bragging rights, a place to sleep, a trip to Paris, a piece of jewelery, a green light to go out with the guys the upcoming weekend, etc etc.

    So when we skip the idea of sex being something you to do procreate, it’s done for two reasons, selfish ones and selfless ones. And no matter how romantic and perfect we might consider ourselves, most of us have had sex at some point for selfish reasons, it need not be more then something simple like you were horny.

    So my proposal would be that when someone consents to engage in a sexual act with someone else, they can’t put a qualifier on that consent, unless that qualifier pertains to the sex itself. Nothing that happens after the sex, can be nor should be put into the equation of that consent.

    If someone wants to argue for that, I’d consider it more prostitution then anything else, and all though we all engage in prostitutional sex in one way or another, it’s not within our right to demand, in a court of law, for our payment, when our partner doesn’t “pay up”.

    At least not unless prostitution is legalized, and then the price of the services would be at least vocally agreed upon beforehand by all parties involved, not thought of with a starry gaze by only one partaker of the sexual act.

  33. @Jen:

    “And who would have sex with a woman who isn’t pretty or nicely-dressed?”

    Please tell me that was said in jest and you are not in fact this shallow.

  34. @Egillvs:

    There are a few problems here:
    1 – that the deception happens before the consent, though it is not discovered until after.

    2 – I may agree that some things are more relevant than others (in fact, I just did in my response to Jen above), but not just things pertaining to the sex. I am giving consent to sex with a person, and I need to know things pertaining to that person too.

    3 – you leave emotions out of this picture completely. Rape is devastating not because it’s a physical assault. Wounds heal and are too often not even inflicted in the first place. It’s because it shatters emotional and psychological well being. And it usually does a hell of a number on self-esteem and self-confidence. You cannot leave this out of the equation.

  35. 1- deceiving someone isn’t illegal, it’s anything from funny to annoying to sleezy to downright reason enough to beat someone to a pulp, but it’s not illegal, and by that I mean the actual deception.

    2- giving your consent is your choice, it’s never a forced act, if it is, we’re entering the crime department.

    you say also that you need to know things pertaining to the person before you consent to sex with him/her, here you are on your own, lets go through the process clinically.

    a/b) you decide if you want to have sex
    b/a) you find a partner to have sex with
    c) you decide what parameters you require before you decide to have sex with that partner
    d) you try and make sure those parameters are met
    e) sex occurs
    f) you find out the parameters were not met

    if this would be something like a string of events that would be rape by deception, then I’d want to ask, what parameters do you need met, that could be found out AFTER the sex?

    disregarding the obvious STDs, what else would you want from someone you’re having sex with, that isn’t revealed before or during the sexual act?

    3 – no idea why you would bring up emotions like I was ignoring them, emotions are closely linked to any decision making in the case of choosing sexual partners, so I sorta assumed they were included.
    You don’t have to explain to me what rape is about.

    My main point is this, when you consent to sex, the only thing you’re legally entitled to is just that, sex.
    Meaning you can’t argue before a court of law “but I only had sex because he/she said he/she wanted to marry me”
    “but I only had sex because he/she said they were really good at oral sex”
    “but I only had sex because he/she was gonna pay for my taxi afterwards”

    you say yes to sex, you get sex, nothing more, nothing less. even if you are having sex with someone you thought was prettier, richer, bigger/tighter, single/married, and they turned out not to be what you thought they were.

  36. @Egillvs:

    1 – deception is, however, the point under discussion. can consent be withdrawn after the fact if there was deception involved? how might we go about legislating against something like the twin scenario while not leaving vulnerable to prosecution everyone who ever lied to a date about their age? that is what this discussion is about, and so it seemed relevant to point out that the deception does not occur after the sex, and therefore your rule does not apply.

    2 – i never go through that particular process clinically. if i did, it would involve getting to know the person i’m going to have sex with first, rather than going through a checklist of requirements. pretty much everything i would need to know would be out in the open before we got to the sex stage, of course. I could find out after the fact he’s a mafia boss, or a convicted pedophile. I could find out he’s taken consent to a one night stand to equal consent to keep me barefoot and pregnant in his kitchen. Or that he has been stalking me. There are any number of things i could find out that may make it rape by deception.

    However, If daddy was in the KKK and I grew up thinking one drop of black blood was too much, I cannot settle for skin tone, or I may wake up one day and find out the guy I just slept with had a black great-grandmother. Clearly very different situations.

    As for emotions, you may not have intended to leave them out of the picture, but it seemed to me like they did not factor in there at all.

  37. @Egillvs:

    On another note, what do you mean if i consent to sex the only thing i’m legally entitled to is sex? how am i legally entitled to it? i can withdraw consent just as easily as i gave it and if there was any entitlement involved, giving consent would entitle the other person to receive it, not myself.

  38. before this turns into a massive point by point reiteration, I’d like to sharpen the point that I wanted to make again.

    When you consent to sex, you can’t put a qualifier on that answer which doesn’t involve the sex itself, that lets you withdraw the consent after the deed and go to court about it.

    a few examples to perhaps make my point a bit clearer since I often have a hard time getting my point across using English :).

    I’ll use some of the examples you made.

    c:Mafia boss.

    a- you meet a guy at a club, he seems attractive enough to you, glances are exchanged, you get to talking, you find out he’s single (check), you find out he has a job (check), you find him funny (check), you find out he’s intelligent (check), you notice he’s a good listener (check).
    You start out imagining the two of you having sex and it turns you on, when he asks you to go home for a “cup of coffee” you say yes.
    Once there, you see nothing to upset your opinion of him so far, one thing leads to another and you have sex.
    You do the call-me-but-not-really act to each other the morning after, but exchange phone numbers, nothing more becomes of the relationship.

    12 years later you read an article in the paper about him having been a pedophile for 20 years.

    b- same as before, but in this case, he calls you a few days after and you hook up, start dating, and have spent about 6 months together when you find out at a party as his parents house, that he’s the biggest racist you’ve met and his whole family is the same.

    c- same as before, but this time when you wake up the morning after, he takes you out to brunch, and you plan to go out two days later. When you get home later that day you are reading the paper and you see his picture in the paper about him being a boss in a mafia.

    in each of the three cases, the woman in question, met someone, the check list was filled out, sex occurred, and then finds out after a piece of information about the individual that would have prevented them from consenting to sex, had they known about it.

    but I never see rape here, nor should anyone else, being a pedophilia is illegal if acted upon, being racist isn’t, being an organization boss isn’t until you’ve ordered or taken part in actual crimes.

    because what the woman found out, isn’t something that involved the sex itself, to which the original consent was given by both parties.
    it involved characteristics that would have a huge effect on how you viewed the individual, but there are a billion and one little tidbits that could do the same, for both parties involved.

    about the entitlement to sex, what I meant to stress wasn’t the legal claim on the sex per se, but the total absence of any claims to information that would have affected the sexual consent.

    even in a case of having sex with someone that knows he is infected with HIV, if you had sex with a guy who deliberately didn’t tell you about that, you could and should charge him with a crime, but that crime wouldn’t be called rape.

    or at least shouldn’t be, it’s a type of assault, on par with a doctor taking a blood sample with a needle he knows he just used on another patient with HIV, or someone sticking you with a syringe on the street with heroin.

    and of course you can withdraw consent just as easily as you gave it, you just can’t do it after you’ve had sex.

  39. I imagine that it would be incredibly rare for a woman to want to lie to a court over a sexual encounter, but neither do I think it’s inconceivable. There are some unbalanced people out there. It might be rare, but it is a valid contingency to examine. Perhaps similar kinds of guidelines that are used in child abuse cases could be employed? It might be rare, but it is a valid contingency to examine. Perhaps similar kinds of guidelines that are used in child abuse cases could be employed?

    I really, really hate “Well, false accusations might happen. They might! They might be rare … but they might happen! Sometimes. Rarely. But they do! We must be super, super concerned with them. This concern over false accusations must be the #1 concern.”

    Do you know what’s not rare?

    Women not even reporting their sexual assaults, because of such, “Well … she could be lying!” bullshit, among a million other reasons. Yet, the first thing people tend to ask when the subject of rape is brought up is: “What about those that might be falsely accused? Those rare, rare cases that could happen … they probably don’t, at least not often … but what about them?!”

    I’m not saying false accusations don’t matter, but I’ve noticed how damn skewed such concern is. The concern is almost never for the woman who was more than likely raped; the concern is almost always for the very rare chance that she’s lying.

  40. @Egillvs:

    even in a case of having sex with someone that knows he is infected with HIV, if you had sex with a guy who deliberately didn’t tell you about that, you could and should charge him with a crime, but that crime wouldn’t be called rape.
    or at least shouldn’t be, it’s a type of assault, on par with a doctor taking a blood sample with a needle he knows he just used on another patient with HIV, or someone sticking you with a syringe on the street with heroin.

    They aren’t the same things, though. Sex and relationships add on a whole ‘nother level for many people (even if not for you) that more impersonal relationships just don’t. Indeed, a doctor inflicting his patients with HIV while pretending to give care is a far different case than some crazy man on the street sticking random people with heroin. The relationship to the victim is completely different, and yes – it does matter. Circumstances do matter, to both the law and the victims.

    You are over-simplifying to a great degree, and even though you’ve insisted otherwise, you seem to still be implying that emotions don’t matter. You also seem to be implying that the high level of trust in a doctor-patient relationship being broken is somehow the same as a stranger-on-the-street sticking you with heroin. Both are horrific, but both are far different. I’m not saying one is worse than the other; just different. (Well… Actually, yes, it is worse to get (or even just think you might have) HIV from such a scenario, but I digress.)

    However, I’d personally be far more offended/traumatized by a doctor giving me HIV without my knowledge than by a stranger on the street sticking me with a needle (and let’s put them on the same playing field and assume the random-guy-on-the-street stuck me with HIV). I have a special relationship with my doctors. To break that trust would be heartbreaking. Currently, I’m very comfortable around doctors and during most medical procedures and rarely get nervous. But that would change if a doctor broke my trust like that, and such a change would probably drastically change me and my life.

    The random-guy-on-the-street sticking me with HIV would also be traumatizing, but the feelings involved would be different, as would the case in general.

    Also, just in general: Pretending to be someone else — as in, a completely different person, like the Twin case — is very, very clearly rape, in my opinion. You are pretending to be someone else. Just because I consent to having sex with Tom doesn’t mean I consent to Dick or Harry. I certainly wouldn’t pretend to be my twin to get in someone else’s pants. Talk about creepy.

    I recall an article that was posted here long ago, I think; maybe on Jezebel. It was about a woman who was sleeping when a man came into her bedroom and initiated sex. She thought it was her husband. Turns out, it was her husband’s brother. That is, in my opinion, clearly rape. She would have consented to her husband (or boyfriend or lover), but not to his brother, or to anyone else. However, I don’t think the jury/judge saw it like that. I’ll try to find the article(s)s.

  41. what’s with the ad hominems, “even if not for you” jeez.

    Also, I in no way equated Doctor+Hiv with Madman+syringe, please notice the OR in between the examples. I was simple saying that someone knowingly infecting you with an STD is more akin to those kinds of assaults, then rape.

    Lets me stress this again.

    the original quickie article is talking about pick-up artists, getting sex from someone via deception and then wondering if that’s on par with rape, calling it rape by deception and if that’s something that should be taken up by the courts.

    Yes I am fully aware that most, me included, have certain long term expectations to the partners we have sex with, those expectations differ, and very often are a big part of the decision process when considering IF we want to have sex with them or not.

    If someone would be able to claim rape by deception because they had sex with someone who claimed he was a billionaire, then the “victim” in question, had what expectations when he/she consented to sex?

    Failure to fulfill those expectations isn’t a crime, neither is the ability to fulfill those expectations.

    another hypothetical to hopefully clarify.

    Woman meets man, man says he’s filthy rich and single, woman decides to have sex with man, and tells him she’s really into him, and thinks he’s handsome and sexy. They go to his hotel suite.

    Sex occurs.

    Man, the morning after, tells the woman, he’s actually unemployed, and living with his parents, and he just borrowed the very expensive SUV and spent all his money on the hotel suite, and now he’s gonna go get his unemployment benefits, but thanks the woman for the enjoyable night and leaves the hotel.

    as clear an example as we can make for “rape for deception”, since the woman never would have had sex with him had she known these things about the man.

    woman feels used, and decides to press charges of “rape by deception”.

    police contact the man and it goes to court, during the trial the man admits to being in fact a billionaire but simple didn’t enjoy the sex as much as he thought he would so he lied about his money in order to decrease the chance of the woman wanting to stay in touch with him.

    Man now realizes that the woman only wanted to have sex with him because he was rich, and that she didn’t think he was sexy or handsome, he knowing full well he’s at most the average joe when it came to the attractiveness department, and decides to sue the woman for rape by deception.

    who’s case is valid?
    how are the cases different?

  42. “the concern is almost always for the very rare chance that she’s lying.”

    i think the schools of opinions here are sadly divided into male/female, all though i realize there are exceptions, even if they are common.

    but in the case of the very rare part.

    in the case of 1000 accusations
    950 are guilty
    50 are innocent.

    which would you prefer.

    475 guilty go to jail
    25 innocent go to jail
    475 guilty go free
    25 innocent go free


    950 guilty go to jail
    50 innocent go to jail

    then tell us why.

  43. @Egillvs: Er. That wasn’t an ad hominem. WTF. It was just a recognition that not everyone views sex the same. I put a lot less emphasis on emotion than most people do when it comes to sex, for instance. Maybe you do, maybe you don’t.

    For the record, I don’t think a pick-up artist is necessarily a rapist. Just picking someone up isn’t raping someone, imo. It might be skeevy, but on a basic level, it’s not rape.

    Your example is weird. The woman isn’t being deceptive. The man lied. The man was being deceptive. The woman had sex with someone she thought was rich. She wouldn’t have had sex with him if he hadn’t pretended to be rich. He was the one being deceptive.

    If a man pretended to be a responsible adult — a job, a car, etc — and I found out, after we had sex, that he was an unemployed loser, and I got pissed and told him, “I wouldn’t have fucked you had I known what a loser you were” — I wasn’t the one being deceptive, at any point. He was. Still, it’s not rape (in my opinion). Skeevy as all hell, though.

  44. @Egillvs: Are these even real statistics? Doubt it.

    There’s always going to be a percentage of false accusations with any crime. From what I’ve read, false accusations of rape and other sexual assaults are about on par with other crimes, which is to say, not very high. Yet, people seem to be far, far more concerned with false rape accusations than with any other crime — even murder.

  45. @Egillvs: Also, of course I’d rather the innocent not go to jail. What do you take me for? What kind of question is that? Talk about a set up and trying to make me look like a cruel bastard.

    I’m not a cruel bastard; I’m a realist. Innocent people go to jail all the time — not just in rape cases. It’s always wrong, but our justice system is not perfect. Something that should be addressed, of course, but not while ignoring this glaring fact:

    It’s far, far, far more likely that a rape isn’t even going to be reported, a point that is nearly always forgotten or ignored when rape is brought up. Including here.

    People are almost always more concerned about the more-than-likely-not-falsely-accused than they are the more-than-likely-telling-the-truth-victim.

  46. @Agranulocytosis: Other kinds of rape (mostly), and mostly in reply to Egillvs. I think rape-by-deception is pretty ambiguous and I think it’s a very case-by-case situation, though I don’t think being a pick-up artist means you are necessarily a rapist, though a pick-up artist can certainly be a rapist.

    However, even if there was a case for a rape-by-deception, I don’t think many women would peruse it. It’s hard enough to peruse even obvious cases. The more ambiguous cases are nearly impossible.

    I think that’s the question to ask, more than, “How many men will be falsely accused?” The question, I think, is, “How many women would even bother?”

    As a woman who was in a relationship many years ago and taken advantage of sexually and forced to do things I really would rather not talk about here, it’s hard enough to prove rape-by-coercion (I certainly didn’t even bother, and finally left and have long since moved on). Rape-by-deception or fraud is even harder to prove, and while many people instantly want to ask about the falsely accused, I want to ask, “How many women would even bother perusing it, unless it was a clear-cut case, which is going to be a rare thing?” Damn, if you’re going to go that far just to fuck someone over, you are a horrible person. But it’s not a common thing, nor easy to pull off.

  47. Last night’s episode of Psych has a subplot involving this issue. Multimillionaire software developer has been pretending to be a jock for years to keep hot wife. Finally she discovers his secret nerd closet and is really pissed. While he was away at Comic-con, pretending to be at a business convention, she was holed up in a Battlestar Galactica TOS marathon. Years of potential nerd bliss lost. Is it really worth it to lie about who you are?

  48. @Egillvs:

    at the risk of repeating myself, you’re still leaving emotion out of it. Let’s see if i can make it clearer..

    take your example

    b- same as before, but in this case, he calls you a few days after and you hook up, start dating, and have spent about 6 months together when you find out at a party as his parents house, that he’s the biggest racist you’ve met and his whole family is the same.

    It’s the morning after, or the same evening, and you’re standing there surrounded by his family while they make remarks that offend you to the core. Through your mind is flashing every moment you spent together, and now you’re wondering if those words he said in the heat of passion were just those things you say in the heat of passion or if he actually meant them. You start asking yourself how could you not have seen what a bigot he was? Have you no judgment? Are you such an awful idiot? There must have been hints! You think about your black friend and how he’s given you the chill ever since meeting this guy and you wonder what did this guy do to your friend? It’s all your fault for being so blind, or worse, so horny and pathetic you couldn’t have seen the truth if it landed on your lap, neatly labeled and profusely illustrated. Every moment you spent together is suddenly disgusting because YOU should have known better, would have known better if you hadn’t been too busy being romanced. What will your friends say? What are they saying now? You should have asked your friend what had happened. You should have asked certin questions, insisted on going along to certain events. With the benefit of hindsight you see the signs that were there all along. You see the lies. And you feel violated. In a very real way.

    Surely you must see that that is very different from the morning after when you are told that the guy is living in his mother’s basement instead of a penthouse. In that little scenario what is most likely going through your mind is anger, you may be thinking that you wasted your time, that next time you will insist on being taken to the penthouse instead of a hotel.

    I don’t know how to make myself any clearer.

    Emotions are involved not just in rape but in sex. Those emotions don’t end just because the sex did.

  49. @gwenwifar:

    just to clarify: the guy that lied about his financial situation is not a rapist. But that doesn’t mean that there may not be a case for the other guy (the racist family guy) being one.

  50. to make it even more clear then i’ve done before.

    i think rape by deception is bullcrock.

    unless in the case where you are pretending to be someone the other person knows, as in the case of twins, or when dark you think it’s someone else like the husband/wife and it’s dark so the person in bed doesn’t realize it’s someone else.

    beyond that, you said yes, you got lied to about the partner being rich or someone famous or what ever, but it’s not rape.

  51. @Egillvs:

    Your position was very clear before. I was merely pointing out why I don’t agree with it. I assumed you had failed to consider some aspects of the situation. Since that doesn’t appear to be the case, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

  52. to get a clearer picture of your view on this, why is it that you don’t agree?

    how is deception by either party, grounds for a rape charge if sex occurs as a result of that deception?

  53. Ok, maybe I can make my position clearer if I start by telling you a little story. The summer before 8th grade, I was on my way to a friend’s house (within walking distance of mine) when a guy pulled up in a SUV and asked me for directions. Then he asked me to show him the way. And seeing as how i was more ignorant of such things than a fence post, it never occured to me that there might be a problem with this picture. So I got in his car, and two minutes later we were in a hidden nook in the woods, not on our way to the beach. In a few minutes of casual conversation he was asking permission to take some measurements – which required me to get out of my clothes. Still clueless, I believed every word he told me. It wasn’t until he asked me if I wanted to get into the back seat, and told me what we would be doing there if I said yes that the penny dropped. In my defense, I was told every day that I was short, fat and ugly, so it never would have crossed my mind, despite the situation, that anyone would have that kind of interest in me. Long story short, I said no. He, shall we say, took matters into his own hands and then dropped me off where he picked me up. This was the most empowering experience of my growing up years. I felt safe, in control of the entire episode. He asked, I said yes or no, and he responded accordingly.
    Now, looking back, I cringe at the danger I couldn’t see. I know that the only reason he asked at all was so that I would feel implicated, and therefore he could use guilt against me to keep me from telling. But I still cannot look back at that incident and see anything but the first time anyone gave a damn what my feelings were on any matter. The first time I had a say in any matter. So the cold clinical fact is I was sexually abused. The emotional, psychological fact is that I felt beautiful, powerful, significant for the first time in my life.
    So yeah, I have some crazy ideas.

    I have this crazy idea that rape is not about sex. It’s about control. Sex is the context, but its not the point. Control is. and here’s another crazy idea I’ve come up with – that’s why rape victims tend to feel guilty about it and sometimes seem determined to believe it’s their fault. Because at some basic intuitive level they refuse to give up that control. After all, if they got raped because they wore this skirt or that dress, or because they walked down a certain street, then they can tell themselves they can regain control by simply not making the same mistake again – they simply trade in all their clothes for ugly sweat suits, and take a cab instead of walking. This doesn’t solve the problem, obviously. There are still a great many issues to deal with. But it helps.

    And yes, i’m well aware that I’m oversimplifying and overgeneralizing. It’s an idea, untested and unexplored, not a theory on rape treatment.

    But to get back to the point, it’s about control. It’s devastating because of the emotional and the psychological scars it claws into people. The utter helplessness, the terrifying feeling of being unable to protect yourself in the most basic way.
    I did not feel in any way violated by my experience, and while I now see what happened to me in a very different light, I still do not feel violated. The events carries no bad memories, no trauma, no regrets other than a vague sense of “I wish I’d told so he would not have had the chance to rape some other kid”.

    To put it as bluntly as you put your position, if you have the emotional and psychological scars to show for it, you have been violated. If the semantics bothers you, and you don’t want to call it rape, then by all means call it something else. But rape is a form of abuse, and as a teacher I can tell you the difference between a kid that falls out of trees a lot and a kid who gets kicked around at home is not in the number or shape of the bruises they sport. It’s their willingness to talk about them, to show them off, the way they look at you, or refuse to do so. It is their emotional and psychological condition.

    Deception also deprives you of control. So if sex + deception = emotional and psychological scars such as those commonly associated with rape, while that does not automatically mean it is rape, it is at least fair to consider the possibility on a case by case basis. After all, everyone is guaranteed a fair trial, no? Anyone who feels raped ought to have a chance to make their case.

  54. @gwenwifar:

    I’ve come up with – that’s why rape victims tend to feel guilty about it and sometimes seem determined to believe it’s their fault. Because at some basic intuitive level they refuse to give up that control. After all, if they got raped because they wore this skirt or that dress, or because they walked down a certain street, then they can tell themselves they can regain control by simply not making the same mistake again – they simply trade in all their clothes for ugly sweat suits, and take a cab instead of walking. This doesn’t solve the problem, obviously. There are still a great many issues to deal with. But it helps.

    You know … I know you mean well and I don’t want to be an ass, but honestly: It’s insulting to say that rape victims “tend to” blame themselves because they “refuse to give up control”. That implies that if all they did was “give up control” and admit to themselves it “isn’t their fault” then they could just see that, hey, it’s not their fault! It’s just a round-about way to blame them for feeling things they often can’t control.

    Women often blame themselves not just because they want to keep some sort of control, but because everyone, often including the rapist, tells them it’s their fault, either very plainly, or more subtly. Society tells women it’s their fault because a good woman wouldn’t have been in a situation that would result in rape. Or that a good woman, period, wouldn’t get raped. Society tells women it’s their fault because if they had only dressed more modestly, they wouldn’t have been raped. Just look at the survey results and some of the comments from the men! It’s not because a woman just can’t give up some sort of perceived control. That’s not just a theory; it’s insanely over-simplified and ignores everything that society tells women, and puts the blame squarely right back on the victim. They already have enough crap to deal with, and it makes me uncomfortable to have someone start pointing and saying: “Well, if you’d only give up that perceived control, and just be strong enough to admit it wasn’t your fault, everything will be okay!” It’s too simplistic and doesn’t make much sense when you look at the larger picture.

    Sure, I’m sure there are many women out there who think, “I was there, I asked for it.” Or even, “It wasn’t rape, I wanted it!” or similar, so that they don’t have to deal with the fact that they were raped, but why do you think a woman might need to do that? It’s because she feels guilty and ashamed. And that guilt and shame isn’t because she’s trying to take control of the situation by taking the blame. It’s because most women are aware, even subconsciously, how society views and deals with rape. It’s her fault! Of course it is. Why wouldn’t it be?

    Also, it’s not at all realistic to claim that all, or even a large majority, of rape victims first, blame themselves (some do; but not all; I certainly don’t), or that they suddenly change their life drastically, or that they suddenly dress differently, or that they become meek. Each rape victim reacts differently.

    You certainly didn’t react in that way from your own assault. Sure, you were probably more cautious after the fact, but you don’t seem to say anywhere that you stopped walking down the street or started wearing bland clothing. And I don’t see you blaming yourself. You acknowledge that you were young and naive, but seem to know that it wasn’t your fault that a grown pervert took advantage of a vulnerable child. You seem relieved that it worked out, and while you understandably seem a bit conflicted about the whole thing, you don’t seem particularly traumatized. The situation changed you in many ways, but even you admit it was for the most part, positive. This isn’t necessarily common, but I’m glad you feel that way.

    Also, you didn’t really answer this question: how is deception by either party, grounds for a rape charge if sex occurs as a result of that deception?

    While I think certain forms of fraud are clearly rape (pretending to be someone else, for instance), I’m not so sure about deception.

    You might feel horrible if you find out your boyfriend is a KKK member, but I really don’t see how that’s rape. Just like a woman who has been married to a man for 20 years and finds out he’s a murder. Not rape. Horrible, yes, and the women who go through this sort of thing have every right to feel what they feel, including violated, but it’s not rape.

  55. Quite a lot to comment on here.

    to gwenwifar:

    you mention deception+sex = emotional/psychological scars

    but having consensual sex, and finding out bits of information about your partner after, probably don’t leave much scars of that sorts, if they do, they’re far and away akin to those of actual rape victims.
    it’s the mindset of each person that matters to them, as they engage in the sex that matters, not how that mindset would/could/should have been different had they had more or all the pertinent information about their partner.

    to marilove:

    I think we’re pretty close to agreeing with one another on the whole issue with perhaps a small gap in just a portion of the whole thing.

    and I’d like to underline and flesh out one point you made, you said –

    “While I think certain forms of fraud are clearly rape (pretending to be someone else, for instance)”

    and the part about pretending to be someone else is perhaps the big issue here, by not giving 100 % accurate and conclusive information about yourself, and by that I mean telling someone EVERYTHING they would need to know about yourself, which might influence their opinion of you, are you thereby “pretending to be someone else” ?

    or just not spending a month explaining to your possible sexual partner who you REALLY REALLY are?

    but the pretending to be your twin sister, or someone’s husband which you know they’d give consent to, that’s rape, and here we are in complete agreement.

    thanks for sharing that story Gwenwifar, if only the outcome of rapes like you had were more common, or better yet, rapes in general be less common or non-existant, but I can dream can’t I ?

  56. @Egillvs: By “someone else” I meant, pretending to be *someone else* — like a twin, or someone’s husband, or whatever.

    HOWEVER, I have a problem with this:

    but having consensual sex, and finding out bits of information about your partner after, probably don’t leave much scars of that sorts, if they do, they’re far and away akin to those of actual rape victims.

    You’re invalidating and trivializing the feelings of people who go through such horrible situations. How do you know how scarred or not someone would be after being deceived by someone they thought they knew and loved? While I don’t think it’s rape, it would be fucking devastating to find out that someone I loved was a murderer. Indeed, it would probably be more devastating than my actual rape, which, while a horrible situation at the time, wasn’t exactly devastating. Things actually turned out pretty okay.

    You don’t have a right to tell someone how they will or should feel, and that’s exactly what you’re doing here.

    it’s the mindset of each person that matters to them, as they engage in the sex that matters, not how that mindset would/could/should have been different had they had more or all the pertinent information about their partner.

    Also, this: Just, what? You’re, once again, claiming that emotions don’t matter. You are brushing asids the feelings of hurt and betrayal that some people go through when they find out they’ve been deceived (no matter how trivial you find the deceiving to be). Again, if I found out my boyfriend or husband had been murdering women for years, I wouldn’t just think, “Oh, well, you know, whatever! No big thang.” It wouldn’t be a big deal to me if I found out that my partner liked to wear angora sweaters or that he (or she) was really poor instead of well-off (or vice versa), but it would really fucking upset me if I found out my partner was a KKK member or a murderer. Yet you seem to be implying that it wouldn’t. Or that it shouldn’t. Or that it doesn’t matter. Which for many, I’m sure, isn’t true. Would you tell that to a woman who found out her husband had been murdering kids and stuffing them under their basement for the last 20 years?

    Of course it would matter if I found out someone I thought I knew was a completely different person – someone horrible.
    Of course, it’d probably bother me less if I found out a one-night stand was a murderer — though even then, it’d skeeve me the hell out, probably for years. But everyone reacts differently.

    I think *my* biggest point is that proving rape by deception is going to be nearly impossible, and it’s so subjective, and I do think it’s a bit of a slippery slope. I would never, ever tell someone how they should feel about a situation, but I have a hard time classifying such a situation as rape, and I have a harder time still with having it prosecuted in that way. Maybe there’s a way to create laws, but it’s all just so subjective.

  57. you’re assuming i find the situation of being deceived into sex and being hurt by that, even scarred, trivial.

    I don´t.

    And once again, you’re saying I claim something, when I don’t, i.e. that emotions don’t matter.

    stop making up points and opinions and then pinning them onto me.

    the fact that I don’t mention every aspect that you consider central to the argument doesn’t mean I think they’re trivial, I am just talking about other aspects.

    about finding out information about your partner that would, and yes I agree and realize this fully, have traumatizing effects on you, just isn’t something that makes sex you consent to while not having that information, rape.

    that’s the point i was making, in no way am I saying that going through something like that is trivial or unimportant.

    you’re making up opinions for me and then saying I’m wrong for having them.

    please stop doing that :)

    my point about how you feel when you find out some piece of information about your previous sexual partner, does not pertain to the sex itself, it is horrifying to find something like this out( yes of course, and now I’ll mention it to make sure you won’t consider me some emotionless bastard that has a penis for not considering it).

    only how you feel about the person, and if you are in a state where you are able to consent (i.e. not drugged/hypnotized/under age/mentally handicapped in some way), matters when it comes to figuring out if a sexual encounter is considered consensual sex or rape.

    proving rape by deceit might be hard, but that’s not really the issue, but if rape by deceit includes making up stuff about yourself (i’m rich and famous) and/or withholding information about yourself ( i’m a racist and a murderer) .

    which I would consider idiotic if it did, since it’d be more then a slippery slope, it’d be starting out halfway down the slope and covering you up with lubricants after putting on rollerskates on you.

  58. @marilove:

    Having reread what you quoted, I can see why you said that. I didn’t mean to say that women chose to feel guilty, or consciously hang on to guilt. And yes, I did say that it was oversimplified and overgeneralized. You don’t have to point that out to me. It is however, worth clarifying. I sometimes skip really obvious steps in my ramblings, and I forget that the fact that they’re obvious to me doesn’t mean they should go without saying – as not saying can make statements like those ambiguous. Nobody can, after all, chose what they feel.

    For the sake of clarity, let me just start by saying that I will refer to victims as female and rapists as male because that seems to be the more common configuration, though it all applies whatever the gender of both victim and rapist. It’s just easier than saying him/her or victim all the time.

    I wasn’t talking about concious choices to feel guilty or even awareness of where those feelings come from. I was talking about a hard-wired survival instinct, the kind of thing that wakes a soldier from a dead sleep at the slightest sound in a war zone. Freud called it the Id.
    Let me point out again that this is just my opinion and I’m not claiming that it has any value beyond that. Self-preservation sucks sometimes. It is less destructive to your sense of safety and your sense of self to feel guilty, because if it was your fault you can keep it from hapening again. If it was not in any way your fault, then it could happen again at any time. When you’re in that kind of pain and stress, that is the last thing you can contemplate.

    Sure, society as a whole helps it along. We were joking on the thread about modesty about how poor helpless men can’t help being driven mad with lust by turtlenecks that draw attention to boobs, but that is, I think, another symptom of the same thing. After all, if it was even slightly her fault, then I’m safe. If it was all his fault then I could be next, or my children. Again, not concious choices or even thoughts, just your id grasping at straws.

    My reaction was nothing like that because i didn;t feel atacked. There was no reason for my survival instinct to kick on. I didn’t feel at all traumatized, and the only reason I feel conflicted at all is that as an adult looking back I realize he didn’t just decided to take a walk on the wild side one day and never tried anything like that before or again. Odds are pretty good he raped a few children, and I feel that I should have done something to prevent it.

    This is turning into an exercise in frustration for me, because i can’t be any clearer than I have been. From my point of view, emotional and psychological scars aren’t just part of rape, they are the bulk of it. All I was trying to say is, when those scars are present, victims, whatever their gender, should have a chance to make their case.

  59. agree gwen about the emotional and psychological scars being the bulk of the rape trauma, the body will heal itself but the mental stuff lasts for a long time if not till the day the person dies.

    but emotional and psychological scars can come from more things then rape, being in a relationship with a murderer unknowingly for example could scar you for life, you might not be able to trust anyone ever again, since if you didn’t know that about your husband/wife of 20 years, how could you know anyone etc etc.

    but that isn’t grounds for a rape case (i.e. when the scarred person had sex with their spouse whilst not knowing their murderous nature/acts)

    I’m sure you didn’t mean to imply that scares such as those only come from rape, but since we are talking about rape by deception in this comment section, I felt a need to underline that part.

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