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Skepchick Quickies 6.12

Amanda

Amanda works in healthcare, is a loudmouthed feminist, and proud supporter of the Oxford comma.

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  1. I have to feel sorry for those poor rednecks though. This will be a very trying time, having to reconcile their loyalties between their mythology and the fact that the dodge being driven is now owned buy Fiat.

  2. @infinitemonkey: True, but these days NASCAR is trying to shed it’s stereotypical redneck image. NASCAR’s primary series, The Winston Cup (Winston is a brand of cigarettes), became the Nextel Cup several years ago. And it’s feeder series, the Busch Series (as in Anheuser-Busch beer), is now the Nationwide Series. That’s the series that this car will be racing in, by the way. But despite the attempt to change it’s image, NASCAR will still let pretty much anyone sponsor a stock car. Enzyte and Viagra come to mind. Personally, I don’t think I can bring myself to watch this car in action on race day. But as long as Mr. Hamilton remembers to turn left, he should do ok.

    Never have I been more proud to be a Formula One fan.

  3. Admission: I am a fan of racing. I watch NASCAR racing every weekend with my husband and our friends. This does not, however, make me a douchebag or a redneck or a republican or a woman-hater or even a Dale Jr. fan. I do grant, however, that many many NASCAR fans do fall into those stereotypical categories -and it is unfortunate for those of us who don’t.
    However, I can’t say I blame Bobby Hamilton Jr. for running with this sponsorship. Times are tough in all racing fields right now and I imagine they will take money from where ever they can -as long as the NASCAR elite will allow it (for example, NASCAR has decided that tobacco is no good as a sponsor, but beer and liquor are -as long as the driver is over 21- and that no one can have a sponsor that conflicts with the series sponsor, Sprint -causing several drivers to lose their sponsorship within the last few years).
    So, it sucks and it’s lame and we disapprove, but I can’t really fault Hamilton for taking the money. Especially since it’s entirely likely he agrees with the message.
    So, keep in mind it’s not really NASCAR partnering with the museum, as much as it is NASCAR allowing MacDonald Motorsports to partner with the museum.
    It will be very interesting to see whether the announcers say much about the sponsorship during the race. I know you’re all dying to hear, so I’ll try to keep an ear open for it.

  4. RE: Doctors deny mom’s tubal ligation

    Amanda, did you just put this one in to start some fights? Fine, then. Let’s get to it. Take off your jacket and get someone to hold your cell phone.

    1) Doctors have the right to refuse non-emergency treatment. Even if their refusal is based on their personal opinion rather than on science.
    2) Patients have the right to request elective, non-destructive surgeries, even if there are better solutions.
    3) Tubal ligation? Really? That’s the best you could come up with? When my wife and I were in a similar stop-the-baby-making situation, she pointed out that tubal ligation was expensive major surgery while vasectomy is a relatively inexpensive minor surgery. Plus, the rate of successful vasectomy reversal was not too bad. Not sure what it is now, but it was okay back then.
    4) Just in case I didn’t say anything that would make you mad, let me add: it doesn’t matter anyway because the aliens can reverse the tubal ligation and impregnate you anyway.

  5. @Imrryr: Winston, Busch and Craftsman are no longer the primary sponsors of the three “premiere” series, but the series(es?) didn’t just become Nextel/Sprint, Nationwide and Camping World. The former stopped giving money and the latter started. If NASCAR were genuinely concerned about their image, they would fire Kyle Busch, stop panning the crowd during races, and mute Darrell Waltrip.

    @durnett: As a childfree person, I am offended whenever someone, even a doctor, assumes that they know better than a patient what their wishes are and will be down the road. I realize that many sterilizations are regretted and that is unfortunate, and I do not blame doctors for being hesitant, but I still find this situation ridiculous. The woman will already be hacked open for a C-section for the birth of their second child -it is entirely reasonable to consider having her tubes tied while the doctor is in there anyway.
    Yes, a tubal is an incredibly invasive major surgery, and that is why my husband and I decided that a vasectomy made the most sense for us, but in this case it will not be a separate surgery and certainly seems practical to me.

    I do hope that her doctor can find her an obgyn who will be willing to perform this procedure, and if not I hope that her husband will man up and get snipped.

  6. @durnett:

    Tubal ligation? Really? That’s the best you could come up with? When my wife and I were in a similar stop-the-baby-making situation, she pointed out that tubal ligation was expensive major surgery while vasectomy is a relatively inexpensive minor surgery.

    …So? What does that have to do with anything? She wants the surgery. Why is it always seen as okay if a man wants a vasectomy, but if a woman wants a tubal, oh no? Certainly not! All women want babies, all women will regret it!

    @durnett:

    Plus, the rate of successful vasectomy reversal was not too bad. Not sure what it is now, but it was okay back then.

    “Not bad.” Reassuring for someone who does not want to get pregnant again, I’m sure. But why does that matter? The husband does not want a vasectomy. Basically you’re saying he should get one, even if he doesn’t want one, but if she wants a tubal, she shouldn’t get it … because she might want children again, even if she says she’s 100% positive she doesn’t? What the hell?

    She wants a tubal. She has that right. The only reason the doctor refused was because he thinks she will change her mind, because of course all women want babies, lots of babies! He didn’t say no because he thought it would be too dangerous, but because he thinks he knows how all women think and feel. That’s fucking offensive.

    It’s tiring that men can make these kinds of permanent decisions all they want, without any problems (I know guys without kids who have had vasectomies!) but as soon as a women wants it, oh no, we certainly can’t have that!

  7. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina):

    and if not I hope that her husband will man up and get snipped.

    I don’t agree with this. It’s a personal decision. He doesn’t have to get one if he doesn’t want one, and it’s prettye ffed up that people think it’s okay for him to get one … but not okay for her to get a tubal. What the hell kind of crap is that?

  8. @marilove: ““Not bad.” Reassuring for someone who does not want to get pregnant again, I’m sure. But why does that matter? ”

    Clearly I misread things. Ignore. Still, he may not want the surgery for other reasons. Maybe she just WANTS a tubal and his reasons for not wanting a vasectomy are irrelevant. Again, why does it matter what HE wants? She wants the tubal!

    Also, one of my close friends got a tubal when she was … 24? Something like that. She had medical reasons, though–I don’t know the specifics, but a pregnancy could have been life-threatening (and she doesn’t want kids). Even still, It took her several years to find a doctor who would be willing to do it. So basically, even though a pregnancy would be life-threatening for her (AND she doesn’t want kids), she still couldn’t find a doctor to do it.

    But had her husband, at 22, requested a vasectomy, it likely wouldn’t have been nearly as difficult.

    ‘Cuz women are just stupid.

  9. @durnett:
    1) I know.
    2) I know.
    3) I was kind of miffed at the “husband doesn’t want a vasectomy” bit. Though young men have an issue finding docs that will sterilize them, too, right?
    4) Well, now I’m pissed. :)

    It’s still stupid. I understand why it is the way it is, but I still hate it and think it’s stupid. There should be some form you could sign saying, “I promise not to sue you if I later regret my decision for this surgery, even though I doubt I will because I have put lots of thought into this and I am done with procreating/never want to procreate. For realz.”

  10. I was surprised by the husband not wanting the vasectomy. I was curious how accurate the article was. Does the wife want the expensive, difficult surgery or does she want to only have two kids and the husband refuse to get a vasectomy? I don’t know but I wouldn’t be surprised. I was 24 when I had my vasectomy and it was like pulling teeth to get the doctor to do it. He kept asking me if I was sure and trying to talk me out of it. I had 3 kids and didn’t want anymore ever with anyone. My wife at the time didn’t want me to get one either but she was/is crazy/stupid. It is hard to find doctors to sterilize you when you are young. Doctor’s assume that you don’t know what you want as far as having children is concerned.

  11. @marilove: It’s a personal decision, yes, but if they are unable to find a doctor to perform the tubal (the most sensible option in this case), then the vasectomy makes sense. It is NOT a major surgery, while she would require a second major surgery if a doctor does ever agree that her little lady brain is smart enough to make her own reproductive choices.

    They want to stop at two children, they have that right. She should be allowed to have a tubal if she wants one, regardless of her age. However, if she is not able to, then they have other decisions to make. I would hope that a vasectomy would be considered, as it achieves the same goal.

    No, he doesn’t have to get one. That’s his decision, and since she wants a tubal it shouldn’t be an issue. But I would hope he would at least consider it rather than simply being “less than keen” on it.

    However, I imagine the husband might get the same kind of push-back. Doctors are often reluctant to perform any sterilizations. Apparently we are all too dumb to know if we want children and how many we want.

  12. @Amanda: Young men can have problems finding a doc that will sterilize them, but not NEARLY as many problems. I’ve known several young men who have had vasectomies without many problems, but EVERY WOMEN I have known that has wanted (OR NEEDED) a tubal has had major issues.

    And it’s interesting to me that NO ONE AT ALL has a problem with the man getting sterilize (“why doesn’t HE just get snipped?!”) but the woman? Everyone seems to have an opinion on why a grown women shouldn’t get a tubal.

  13. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina):

    But I would hope he would at least consider it rather than simply being “less than keen” on it.

    We don’t really know why he chose not to have it. They didn’t go into it. And I don’t really care, as it’s none of anyone’s business, and it shouldn’t matter, since she wants the tubal and is clearly very positive on that.

  14. @marilove: I think it’s nuts. I tried to get sterilized at 19 and couldn’t find a doc to do it. I wish I could have found one. We are so focused on breeding. Like you aren’t a person until you make a baby. I love my children and this doesn’t mean that I want to be rid of them but I would have been better off if I hadn’t had kids.

  15. @marilove: Oh, I agree. She should be allowed to have the tubal. She’ll already be on the table, anyway. It doesn’t make any sense to close her up, and then open her up again later when the doctor decides she’s old enough. It IS a bunch of crap.
    And I don’t mean to diminish a man’s right to make his own decisions on the same matter. But given the choice between a tubal and a vasectomy in my relationship, we chose the vasectomy so I may be biased as to why that’s a perfectly logical decision to me.
    However, my situation is not theirs, and if my belly had been opened up anyway for any reason, I certainly would have opted for the tubal as well -and still would just to double-up!
    But my belly wasn’t open, and my husband was more than willing, so there we are.

  16. @marilove: In this case, it certainly makes sense as to why the the woman wants the tubal since as you said, she’ll be having a c-section anyway. Much easier to just combine the procedures rather than have to go through 2 surgeries.

    I just get irritated with men who loudly proclaim they don’t want chilluns or that they’re done with having kids but then expect their partner to go through painful invasive surgery instead of having a quick outpatient procedure themselves.

    I think the topic should be open for discussion between a couple rather than, “Ah! Don’t go near my manhood with sharp things!” being the end of it. (Talking about vasectomy in a broader sense, not specifically in relation to this article.)

  17. @marilove: She should be able to have her tubal but if she can’t find a doctor to do it then he needs to get it done. She shouldn’t have to justify her decision to anyone but if she is in a situation that is that bad then he needs to accept his responsibility as the other half of the couple that only wants two children and get a vasectomy.

  18. @Amanda: & @marilove: Several years ago when I chose to get my vasectomy I had to shop around for a doctor willing to do it, I was refused by 5 or 6 who would provided the service, just not to me.

    marilove is correct that that was nothing compared to what many, most?, young women have to go through if they know they want or need to be sterilized.

    While sure a private business has the right to not serve people, it seems kind of stupid to offer a service but only for some. If McDonald’s started refusing to serve hamburgers to us fatties because we “might regret it later”, that would be obviously absurd and the world would be up in arms. But if its about precious babies somehow the rules of logic and outrage don’t seem to apply.

  19. @marilove:
    The doctor is a man, therefore he has no right to say no to a woman?
    There are a lot of female doctors here. They don’t perform tubals on young women any more than the men do.
    V’s and T’s are not equivalent. The reversiblity alone makes them incomparable.

    “She wants a tubal. She has that right. The only reason the doctor refused was because he thinks she will change her mind, because of course all women want babies, lots of babies!”
    …and you know this because…?

    No one’s rights are being trampled here. She has the right to request a tubal. Any person (hopefully a doctor) she requests it from has the right to refuse her.

  20. @mxracer652: What would be nice would be the scientific equivalent of a miracle. A simple vaccination that would prevent fertility in men and women without any other sideeffects that could be reveresed when the couple or woman decided that they actually wanted to be parents/mother and had taken some classes on parenting, and were no longer children themsleves. I would love to see an end to unwanted, unplanned pregancies. I would love it if only people who wanted children and were capable of caring for those children with love were getting pregnant.

  21. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): It looks like you’re right about the fact that it was a matter of Winston pulling out and Nextel picking up the sponsorship. Admittedly, I didn’t follow the change all that closely. But on the news the change was always billed as an attempt by NASCAR to change it’s image. I guess that’s what I get for watching televised news several years ago.

    Regarding tobacco sponsorship: there is a similar issue in F1, except in this case Europe has outlawed tobacco advertising on television entirely, so Ferrari is forced to race with “subliminal” Marlboro branding on it’s cars. All the other tobacco sponsors pulled out a few years ago. Liquor advertising is still fine for some reason.

  22. @Skepotter:

    No one’s rights are being trampled here. She has the right to request a tubal. Any person (hopefully a doctor) she requests it from has the right to refuse her.

    I disagree. That is too close to the old signs I used to see in restaurants when I was a kid. “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” They were a not so subtle way of telling non-whites to keep out. So the non-white could ask for service and the restaurant could refuese service and no one’s rights were tampled?

    What if she had cancer and wanted cancer treatment and the doctor refused? What if she wanted boob implants and the doctored refused? What about the lady awile back who went in to get the strings on her cervical dohicky trimmed and the nurse yanked it out and refused to put it back?

  23. @Gabrielbrawley: Agreed, except I don’t think men or women should be single parents.

    The child(ren) wind up with higher incidences of criminal behavior, substance abuse, other unsavory social behaviors. I find it quite selfish for people to know this & proceed anyway.

  24. @Gabrielbrawley: “We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone” They were a not so subtle way of telling non-whites to keep out. So the non-white could ask for service and the restaurant could refuese service and no one’s rights were tampled?

    And how is the owner’s right to do business with whom he chooses not trampled either?

    Life isn’t PC.

  25. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): Yep, your decision was clearly the right one, and I’m glad you guys were able to make it. :)

    @Skepotter:

    The doctor is a man, therefore he has no right to say no to a woman?

    I never said that? If I implied it, I didn’t mean to. It doesn’t matter if the doctor was a man or a woman. (Women can be just as bad about it as men. If not worse. “But you might change your mind! You know you want kids!” I get this more from women than I do men, as men (non-doctor men, anyway) don’t seem to care as much about what a women decides, reproductive wise.)

    @Skepotter: “…and you know this because…?”

    Um, because that’s what they *told* her? They *told* her that she might change her mind. They *told* her that she may want more children “if she ended up with someone else”. This is actually what they told her. So yes, I know that’s how they feel.

    They are not refusing her because it could be dangerous. They are refusing her because they think she will chang her mind. That’s fucked up. A doctor SHOULD NOT make a decision for someone like that.

  26. @Skepotter:

    “No, I won’t do it,” Dr. Kayode Ayodele told her unequivocally. “You’re too young.”

    A tubal ligation was simply not even open for discussion. He told her that she might get involved with someone else down the road and regret her decision. He told her it’s a permanent sterilization method and he’s had so many patients wanting it reversed, that he won’t even consider performing one now on any woman under 25.

    The doctor(s) refused because they believe she will change her mind. Period.

  27. @Imrryr: Not that it’s really a big deal. I only know it because we eat, sleep, breathe and rant NASCAR at our house on a regular basis. Well, most racing, but NASCAR most closely. Not that I’m proud of it. Not that I’m ashamed of it. But you know. Moonshiners and Jesus Freaks unite!

    All that said, Morgan Shepherd drives for Faith Motorsports and has Racing With Jesus on his car pretty much every week he doesn’t have an actual sponsor. Interestingly, he hasn’t had a top ten finish since 1999. Is that what Jesus does for racing? Maybe Bobby Hamilton Jr. should reconsider…

  28. @Gabrielbrawley: Exactly.

    And for the record, I don’t necessarily have a problem with the doctor(s) asking questions and giving them all the info (ie, this is permanent, are you okay with this? these are the risks. etc. etc. here, sign this, thank you.) And because it is permanent, I can see giving the woman some time to think on it — but clearly this woman has several months before she gives birth to make the final decision.

  29. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): My dad LOOOOOVES NASCAR. I have lots of memories of NASCAR on the TV on weekends, and he loves going to the races when they come to Phoenix (also local races and off road races having nothing to do with NASCAR. He’s a racing nut).

    But he’s not a hick or anything like that. He’s a science nut. I can see him shaking his head and “tsk tsking” about this sponsorship.

  30. And also, my opinion is so strong because I DO NOT want children. I’ll be 28 in August and I am still positive I do not want children. I do not want to get married. I figure if at 35, I still do not want children, I will start looking at tubals. I’m not in a big hurry because I have no real desire to even be in a relationship right now, so whatever, nor do I have much of a desire to go into surgery, and I don’t really have a problem with the pill. So I may never make that decision. But it’d be nice if the option was there.

  31. @Gabrielbrawley: I think there should be some test to have a kid. When I was first married, my hubby and I got a pure breed Alaskan Malamute. OMG. What we had to do to “prove” we could take care of that damn dog. They checked our yard, asked about our finances, they called us for months after to make sure the dog was cared for. When we wanted kids, ah, heck, just get pregnant.

  32. @marilove: I am disappointed because he is part of the couple, the second half of the relationship. From what we do know, at least what was in the article, I don’t know how accurate anything in the article is, is that they only want two children. The article reports that she is having a lot of trouble finding a doctor that will perform a tubal. There is no mention of him having trouble finding a doctor to provide a vasectomy.

    When you are in a relationship. When you are one half of a couple, when you are a parent you have responsibilities that usurp your personal desires.

    They don’t want more children. She can’t get a tubal. They don’t want to have abortions if birth control fails. That leaves vasectomy.

    I’m not sure if I am being as clear as I would like to be but this is a situation where his personal desires should take a subordinate position.

    Kind of like me going to work to help support the family when my personal desire would be to get drunk and watch porn all day.

  33. One thing a lot of couples don’t consider: a tubal ligation or a vasectomy prevents only one of you from conceiving. And that works just fine, assuming you stay a couple for the rest of your reproductive lives. Things don’t always work out that way.

  34. @Gabrielbrawley: I’m wondering, though, if the reason they are still pursuing the tubal is because she is getting refused, and she’s pissed, so she wants to make a point out of it. I’d probably be doing the same thing if I were her.

    She shouldn’t be unable to get the tubal. I get how you feel, but you also need to realize that she has a right to make her own decisions about her own body. As a woman, I can see why she is fighting this, and not just shrugging and going, “Whatevs, let’s just snip snip the hubby!” If more women don’t fight this kind of stuff, it’ll never change.

    Also, how healthy would it be for their relationship to “force” him to get a vasectomy, when he doesn’t really want one? That’s not nice. She’s probably doing what I would do: Respecting her husband’s personal choices and decisions. And she probably wants what all women want: For their personal choices and decisions to be respected.

  35. @marilove: I agree, she should have the tubal if she wants one. It is nice of her to do it for husband. But since things aren’t working out that way he needs to be a man, accept his responsibility and do it. I am not in anyway justifying what the doctor is doing he is wrong.

    It is just that sometimes the world sucks and we have to go with plan B.

  36. @Gabrielbrawley: “But since things aren’t working out that way he needs to be a man, accept his responsibility and do it”

    What? So he’s not a man if he doesn’t “accept his responsibility”?! I don’t really agree that it’s his “responsibility”.

    I also don’t agree that they should just “accept it”.

  37. @Gabrielbrawley: Also, I wouldn’t just assume that his getting a vasectomy is completely off thet able. All we know is that he’s “not too keen” on the idea, and that may or may not be a direct quote. It’s entirely possible that it’s still on the table, but she wants to fight this (and make it known to the media how difficult it is for her to make decisions for herself).

    If I were in there situation, that’s exactly what I’d be doing.

  38. @Gabrielbrawley: But it wouldn’t make him any less of a man if he decides he doesn’t want to get snipped, and, anyway, we don’t know his reasoning or if he is 100% agains it. It’s possible he’s just unsure, but she’s 100% sure, and now pissed she can’t make the decision.

  39. @marilove: I’m with you. I would be doing the same, too. My body, my decision, and don’t tell me no.

    When I was pregnant with my third, I was high risk pregnancy, and I remember telling my doctor the same thing…if you gotta go in there, do it. But I am OLD, so I guess it was okay. But I did have to sign a ton of forms, go to a class, blah blah blah….dear god.

    My hubby went for a vasectomy and it was so easy for him. *sigh*

  40. @marilove: It wouldn’t make him less of a man to not want to get snipped. And he should support his wife in her desire to get a tubal. But if they can’t find a doctor to do the procedure for her and they can find one to do the procedure on him and they want to make sure there are no more kids in their relationship then he should do it. There are a lot of qualifications there.

  41. @Gabrielbrawley: Then don’t say, “He should be a man and take responsibility.” That gives me the willies. She clearly is able to be a woman and take responsibility.

    She WANTS the procedure done. If I were in her situation, I’d be doing the same thing. I wouldn’t fucking compromise or back down.

    It’s in the media now. This is good. It’s likely she’ll have an easier time, now, finding someone to perform the operation.

  42. @marilove: I think you are arguing from the position of what should be and I am arguing from the position of what is. You are right in what should be. I agree with you. But until what should be becomes what is we are stuck in the less correct world of what currently is and have to operate in it. Until we can make it better.

  43. @Gabrielbrawley: We don’t know the full situation, and it’s completely possible he will decide to get snipped if it really does turn out that she can’t get the tubal. You’re making the assumption that he positively wouldn’t, when all we know is that he’s not all that keen on the idea. And she, like me, is probably hesitant to make someone do something they don’t want to do.

    Right now she’s pissed and talking to the media about it and not ready to give up. There is nothing wrong with that.

  44. This pet owner only uses scientifically proven veterinary medicine for his pets.

    Besides, I think sticking needles into a cat is a good way to lose an acre or two of skin and flesh…

    Had a vasectomy in the mid-1980’s after the kids were born. Hardly any forms to sign, mostly insurance so the doctor would get paid for the work. So why does a woman have to go through triplicate Hell for essentially the same medical service – surgical contraception?

  45. @QuestionAuthority: Because all women want babies and women can’t make their own reproductive decisions. It’s always been like that.

    We can’t even get hormonal birth control without going through fucking hell sometimes (thankfully I’ve never had any issues, but many women have).

  46. @tiger kitty: Well I was 24 or 25 and that was a big part of the road block. Like I said I tried to get it done when I was 19 and couldn’t find a doctor to do it. I had the cash I was more than willing to pay for it. No luck.

    @marilove: I hope she is able to get what she wants. She deserves to be able to do as she chooses with her body. She isn’t hurting anyone and seems to be a very mature and intelligent young woman who is behaving in a comendable and responsible fashion.

    I guess as a man and a father it really gets under my skin when I here other men/fathers bitching about what they have to do because they are fathers. Tough fucking luck guys. You helped make a kid. You have a responsibility. What you want once you become a parent really isn’t that important anymore.

  47. @Nicole: ::insert dirty laugh here:: every time I hear “penal code.” Oh, “pianist,” for that matter.

    And if anyone cares, there were no classes or anything for my husband’s snippage. Just a consultation, the snip (30-45 minutes, I’d say) and then a follow-up to ensure no sperm count. No permission required from me, no hassle, no nothing. Of course, he was 29. And the doctor was the same doctor who snipped his father. And my father. And his mother’s father. AND the doctor’s name is Dr. Stopp.

  48. Every time I see an article about the $27 Million Monument to Ignorance (aka Creation Museum), I throw up a little in my mouth. I somehow managed to miss that announcement in the paper yesterday – they’d run a story the day before about the attendance at the $27 MMtI exceeding projections, and I was still heaving from that one.
    (courier-journal.com, if anyone’s interested.)
    It’s depressing reading the comments within the articles about how great the place is…

  49. @marilove: I should have maked that as snark or as a rhetorical question. ;-)

    @Vengeful Harridan: So you have watched your Animaniacs episodes, too, huh.

    “Pianist”

    “You say that again and somebody’s mouth is gonna get washed out with soap!” ;-)

  50. Wow did I pick the wrong morning to actually work before checking the blog…

    I think GB and marilove have pretty much dealt with this the way I would have… I too hope she is able to get it done and think it is crazy that they wanted to keep her away from it… Did you see where it said 20% of the women regreted it? That isn’t really that high of a % if you think about it… I bet there are 20% of people who regret LOTS of choices they have made.

    Anyway, I 2nd this whole naked jello boobies thing.

  51. Also, I bet a lot less women would regret it if it weren’t banged in to us starting at birth that we OF COURSE want and of course NEED to have children and if we don’t we’re somehow fucked up and weird.

  52. @durnett:
    When my wife and I were in a similar stop-the-baby-making situation, she pointed out that tubal ligation was expensive major surgery while vasectomy is a relatively inexpensive minor surgery.

    The catch is that a vasectomy will not prevent a woman from becoming a mother. It can only prevent a man from becoming a father.

  53. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): People always bring up the possible problems abortion can have, and of course the “post-abortion depression” that doesn’t really exist … but then completely ignore the fact that pregnancy and birth are not easy and have their own set of problems, including post-partum depression, and death.

    SO common, and it really is fucking annoying.

    And I agree: Much better to regret not having children than the other way around, especially since there ARE other ways to have children.

  54. @pciszek: Of course, but in monogamous long-term relationships, which is what we are discussing, one partner’s sterilization is effectively sterilizing the couple.
    If a man is sterilized and his wife becomes pregnant, somehow I suspect there’s a whole lot else going on there that has nothing to do with the vasectomy…

    Single folk, or people not settled into long-term monogamy, need to take responsibility for their own reproduction -or non-reproduction- of course. Unfortunately, a single woman is FAR less likely to find a doctor willing to sterilize her than a married woman, or a woman who already has children, or a man of any sort. It’s not right, and we need to push to make it not so, but it is what it is right now.

  55. @Gabrielbrawley: What would be nice would be the scientific equivalent of a miracle. A simple vaccination that would prevent fertility in men and women without any other sideeffects

    As long as we are wishing for magic, how about re-engineering the human race so that conception can only take place if both parties are wishing for a child while they are having sex.

  56. @pciszek: Oh yes, I have had that thought many times. It would be great if we had evolved as creatures where either party in a sexual encounter could control their fertility at will. Then pregnancy could only happen if both parties wanted it to happen.

  57. @Gabrielbrawley: I would. Would you believe the number of people who don’t think I’m a real woman because I haven’t had a child?

    @pciszek: Wasn’t talking about marriage for life. Was talking about long-term monogamy in general -which is not necessarily forever. When one half of a couple decides to get sterilized, they make that decision for the whole couple. If the couple un-couples at a later date, then the unsterilized one has a decision to make. I don’t think it is necessary for both parties to be sterilized just in case their relationship ends.

  58. @Gabrielbrawley:Obviously extenuating circumstances exist. Going into a pregnancy single wouldn’t be one of them.

    Yes, it is wrong, but it shouldn’t be illegal for a private entity to choose who it contracts with, for any reason.

    Is it reasonable for the government to dictate that you must find all “races” equally sexually attractive?

    @marilove: See above. Also, just because something is illegal doesn’t mean it should be. Loving v Virginia, and dildos in Alabama come to mind.

    I also chose my wording accurately, I did not say all child(ren) of single parents end up as fuck ups. You know better than that.

  59. @<a href="#comment- @mxracer652: It’s “wrong” to go into a pregnancy when you’re single? Why do you have the right to determine what is right and what is wrong? Having two parents doesn’t mean that suddenly everything is going to be perfect, you know.

    And you believe that businesses should be allowed to refuse service based on race??? You believe it shouldn’t be illegal? REALLY?

    No one is trampling on anyone’s rights by making it illegal to discriminate against fucking skin color.

  60. @Gabrielbrawley: Actually, I don’t get too much crap personally. But I read a lot of articles and blogs and am offended upon everyone’s behalf. My husband and I have been together for over a decade and have been adamant about not having kids the entire time, so anyone who knows us at all knows it already. Meeting new folks, they do sometimes react with surprise and interest but luckily I haven’t gotten a lot of crap about it from people whose business it is not.
    I actually got more crap for not learning to drive my husband’s Corvette than I ever did for not having kids. Curious.

  61. @mxracer652: Yes it should be illegal. If you want to go into buisness those are the conditions you have to operate under. You must be willing to provide your service or product to anyone who is legally able to purchase your service or product. If a person is unwilling to do so that person needs to find another way of earning a living. You are making a false dichotomy when you compare this to the government dictating that you must find all races equally sexually attractive. They are not comparable.

  62. @Gabrielbrawley: Besides which, it’s in our constitution. If someone disagrees with that, tough shit. Maybe it’s time to move to a country that legally allows discrimination, but America doesn’t, and for damn good reason.

    Because if you think the majority of people are awesome and won’t discriminate, you’d be wrong.

  63. @marilove:

    May change her mind, not will change her mind (end of quibble).
    If he does grant her request, and she changes her mind, has he not violated his oath to first do no harm?
    She has other options.
    These two may be as old as adults but they are not adults, they are children. Faced with a blocked path to a goal, adults seek another path. Children have a hissy fit. These two are taking the hissy fit route.

  64. @Skepotter: If he does grant her request, and she changes her mind, has he not violated his oath to first do no harm? No. Because if she does change her mind, that’s on her. He “granted her request” in good faith that she had fully considered her options. That she hadn’t, or changed her mind later, is her mistake. Not the doctor’s.

    These two ARE adults. They know what they want out of their lives, and they know that they only want two children. They have options to ensure that they do not conceive any further children, and sterilization is a perfectly logical solution. My in-laws made the same decision at a younger age, and no one ever accused them of being childish. Rather, it’s called “being responsible.”

  65. @marilove:
    “Also, how healthy would it be for their relationship to “force” him to get a vasectomy, when he doesn’t really want one? That’s not nice. She’s probably doing what I would do: Respecting her husband’s personal choices and decisions. And she probably wants what all women want: For their personal choices and decisions to be respected.”

    Her personal choice is being respected. No one is stopping her from seeking a doctor who will do it. Obviously, there are some who do, else there would not be a percentage who want it reversed.

    I want to have sex with you. You say no. How are you being disrespectful of me?

  66. @Skepotter:

    I do not want kids. Never have. I’m almost positively certain that I’ll never find a doctor who’s going to tie my tubes at the age of 22 without having children first. It’s not right. it’s not fair, but I don’t pretend it’s any different.. for now. Let me preface my question to you, skepotter, by saying I’m not being snarky (*gasp*) and it is a legit question. What harm is the doctor doing to a woman if he grants her the procedure? Is it psychological? Would it be prudent to grant her the procedure under the circumstances that she knows what she wants, and with the knowledge that if she later wants to be a mother, that the option of adoption is readily available (albeit hard and expensive)?

    PS. Skepotter… too cute. I do love otters.

    PPS: I tried to come up with a witty correlation between deciding to get sterilized with the decision being euthanized… but fell short. … It would have been clever.

  67. @Skepotter: Actually the oath isn’t a binding legal contract. Do doctors even take an oath anymore? I think you are grasping at straws.

    @Skepotter: Hissy fits? Name calling? When faced with a blocked path most adults try to get their legal rights. They don’t just accept the denial of their rights shrug their shoulders and accept it.

  68. How old does a women have to be to get breast implants? How old does anyone have to be to get any kind of completely elective plastic surgery? I completely agree with marilove here.

    @Skepotter:
    “These two may be as old as adults but they are not adults, they are children. “

    No, they are over 18 and mentally healthy. They are adults. It’s not your job or the doctor’s to decide if they are mature enough to make decisions for themselves. The article said that about 20% of women regret getting a tubal ligation if they do it before they are 30. That means the vast majority do not regret it. The doctor had no reason to assume that this particular woman will regret it, and she probably won’t. And so what if she does regret it? Is it a doctor’s responsibility to stop people from doing anything they might regret some day? I don’t think it is.

    @Skepotter: “Faced with a blocked path to a goal, adults seek another path.”

    You’re joking, right? Adults throw hissy fits all the time. Have you ever turned on a tv or overheard a political conversation?

    This couple wants to do the responsible thing and have only two children. They have decided that they can provide the best life for their children if they have exactly two. It makes sense for the mother to have a tubal ligation during her C-section, rather than two separate surgeries. These people are being very mature by actually planning out their lives, children, and careers. They have actually thought about what’s best and planned for the future. That’s a lot more responsible than most adults are.

  69. @Skepotter: “If he does grant her request, and she changes her mind, has he not violated his oath to first do no harm?”

    What if her birth control fails and she has a third child and can’t provide as well for any of them? Wouldn’t the doctor be doing harm then? What if the third pregnancy is risky, as pregnancy inherently is?

    “She has other options.”

    And she’ll have other options if she has the tubal ligation and regrets it. She can adopt.

  70. @Skepotter:

    “I won’t do it until you’re older and more certainly established in your life’s path, else I believe I may be violating my oath to first do no harm because I just don’t trust that you’re capable of making your own life decisions yet.”

    There, fixed it for you.

  71. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): @marilove: @Gabrielbrawley: @tiger kitty: Where the hell do you people work where you can spend all day on the internet not working, I mean I’m not being critical, I just want an application.

    @Skepotter: Absolutly agree with you, reading it I can’t help but wonder, why is this even an issue, they have so many other options that are less permanant, and when they are older they can get it done with less hassle.

    On a personal note, my wife had wanted no kids when she was 20, and considered having the nessesary procedure to make this happen, 6 years later we are getting ready to have our first kid, so yeah, people do change, young people are stupid, I say this as a young person. I changed my major 1/2 a dozen times in college, and am looking to go back to school and get another degree because my first one is useless.

    But more to the point, this is overblown, the doctor doesn’t want to do it because after spending many years in a career he sees to many people who later regretted it. This isn’t an issue because they have other options, but rathier pursuing those options there bitching about it to the media.

  72. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina):
    The childishness is not about her (their) decision to choose the tubal first-in-line, but the hissyfit upon hearing “no”.

    I agree that she has the right to seek it, and all the more power to her if she can find a doctor who will perform it for her.

    The doctor has stated that he won’t because there are too many women coming back and wanting it reversed. Do you think those conversations go something like
    “Hey Doc, can you fix this?
    “Nope.”
    “Right-o.”

    More likely a strong emotional reaction of some kind (anger frustration guilt whathaveyou). Yet you want him to take the position that a too-early T did no harm?

  73. @skepticalhippie: I just happen to have a down day today. I actually work most of the time but today is slow.

    Also from the article it would appear that 80% of the patients who get it done don’t regret it. So I think it is wrong. In the end it isn’t up to the doctor to decide if an adult even a young adult is a making the right decision. I still wish the doctors would have consented to perform my vasectomy when I was 19.

  74. @skepticalhippie:

    Not everyone changes their mind. I’ve thought seriously about the chances of me procreating and it just doesn’t seem like a viable option for me. So while some may perceive me as young and “stupid,” I say nay. I’m old enough to determine what it is I’ll want for my life and what makes me happy. Also, the decision has been extremely hard, but knowing what I want in life paired with past experiences has given me a more in depth look into what kind of parent I would be. *If* I change my mind at a much, much later date… adoption is a loving option.

  75. @Skepotter: No they are fighting for their legal rights. That isn’t the same as thowing a hissy fit. From what the doctor says the vast majority, 80%, of his patients don’t regret it. The doctor is taking the position of “I am older and smarter than you so I will behave like a father and tell you what you can or can’t do.” It is wrong and it is offensive.

  76. Either you are of legal age to make decisions or you aren’t. If you can vote, drive, join the military, join the police then you are old enough to make decisions about your body. Society is going to trust these young people to enforce laws, carry guns etc but not make decisions about their bodies?

  77. @skepticalhippie:

    “young people are stupid, I say this as a young person. I changed my major 1/2 a dozen times in college, and am looking to go back to school and get another degree because my first one is useless.”

    Just because you are dumb and flaky doesn’t mean all young people are. Sorry to hurt your feelings, but I guess some people are smarter than you, or at least more directed. If young people are just stupid in general, then we need to change the laws to reflect that. Right now 18 is the age of majority, and most adults handle it well. The couple in this story sounds much, much more mature than you are. And remember, the vast majority of women who have a tubal ligation before they are 30 do not regret having it done. Some young people can actually handle making responsible decisions.

    Anyway, just because you know one person who changed her mind doesn’t mean all people will. Is it the doctor’s responsibility to make sure no on ever regrets anything? Older people, the Real Adults(TM) also make decision that they regret. Does this mean that others shouldn’t be taken seriously if they want to make the same decision?

    @Skepotter:

    “The childishness is not about her (their) decision to choose the tubal first-in-line, but the hissyfit upon hearing “no”.”

    So when women complain that their pharmacist refuses to sell them birth control, are they just throwing hissy fits too?

  78. @Skepotter: I wouldn’t describe her desire to find a doctor who will perform the procedure as a “hissy fit.” I would describe it as proper.
    The doctor’s opinion that 20% of women under thirty is “too many,” is his opinion. But not all young adults are childish and not all change their mind. In fact, most don’t. My in-laws certainly didn’t.

    @skepticalhippie: Just because you did doesn’t mean your experience gets to dictate medical decisions for everyone else. Besides, a tubal is sterilization but it does NOT prevent a couple from having biological children later in life should they realize that’s what they want. There are other methods to get a baby.

    Maybe not everyone know what they want when they’re young. Not everyone knows what they want when they’re sixty. But that doesn’t mean that someone else gets to decide if you’re grown up enough to make childbearing decisions. Where does it end? Doctors performing C-sections without consent? Oh, they do that. Nurses removing IUDs without consent? Oh, they do that, too. Pharmacists refusing to dispense legal prescriptions? Oh, yeah, that too. Just because a doctor disagrees on a personal level does not mean a competent adult should be denied a legal procedure.
    No wonder some people have a hard time trusting the medical establishment…

  79. @Gabrielbrawley: I’m not a doctor, but an elective surgery that has a 20% risk of serious side effects (wait, as it turns out I didn’t want be sterile) seems pretty damn high, especially in light of all the other options available. 20% regret rate is too damn high for something as serious as sterilization.

  80. @skepticalhippie: What if 20% of people use their hair dyers in the shower? Do we deny the rest of the world hair dryers? No, we slap a warning label on it so their dumbasses will stop and think before they do. It should be the same way with a medical procedure. But if you’re dumb enough to get in the shower still plugged in (read: get sterilized without thinking it through), then you have to deal with the consequences. Like an adult. It’s not the doctor’s fault.

  81. @skepticalhippie:

    I say false. If you can’t take the time to sit down and look long-term in the future to decide that “oh wait, maybe I didn’t want to be sterile,” then there are other decisions you shouldn’t be making either. “Oh wait, maybe my English degree was a bad idea…” “Oh wait, maybe I shouldn’t have signed a DNR on all of my emergency paperwork.” People get to make their own decisions… it’s called free will. Let couples look at the risks and decide for themselves.

  82. @skepticalhippie:

    If people can’t manage to make a responsible decision, it’s probably better they don’t have kids anyway. I think it’s silly that someone can be considered responsible to have kids, but not responsible enough to not have kids. Kids are as permanent as a tubal ligation.

  83. @catgirl: So my wife changed her mind, does that make her flakey and dumb? 20 out of 100 women who chose to have this surgery change there mind later on, does that make them flakey and dumb? The point is the finality of this operation in light of all the other options .

    As far as the adoption, what’s the cost of an adoption these days? $10,000 or so? If I have chose to have a child and I have insurance it won’t cost me nearly as much.

    I’m so glad you are mature and goal directed and perfect in everyway, the rest of us mere mortals are prone to change our mind from time to time, and as it turns out, make mistakes.

  84. @tmarie:
    “What harm is the doctor doing to a woman if he grants her the procedure? Is it psychological? Would it be prudent to grant her the procedure under the circumstances that she knows what she wants, and with the knowledge that if she later wants to be a mother, that the option of adoption is readily available (albeit hard and expensive)? ”
    Of course its a legit question.
    Although it may not be as prevalent as it once was, a lot of doctors see their client
    relationships as a long term one, sometimes even a lifelong one. Under such circumstances, it is his duty to look at the long term, not just the moment. The harm is in performing an irreversible procedure while there is still a significant chance that the choice is premature (a significant chance that she will change her mind). Its not a case of the doctor thinking he knows better than she, its a doctor not wishing to perform a surgery until the time is ripe.

  85. @Skepotter:

    These two may be as old as adults but they are not adults, they are children.

    Did you just call two GROWN ADULTS with CHILDREN, children?

    What.

    Women can make their own decisions, and I’m tired of people assuming we can’t because we “may” change our minds.

  86. @skepticalhippie: But that is their decision to make not mine, not yours and not the doctors. He can counsel them against it. He can explain all of the reasons that he thinks it is a bad idea. He can make them read and sign statements explaining what is going to happen and that they agree to it. But to deny it because he thinks they are too young is just wrong.

  87. @catgirl:

    I think it’s silly that someone can be considered responsible to have kids, but not responsible enough to not have kids. Kids are as permanent as a tubal ligation.

    God, this times a fucking million. NEWSFLASH: Kids are permanent too. Should we force people not to have children if we deem them “not mature enough to decide to have children” or “not mature enough to be ready to make such a big decisions”?

    Something tells me those thinking a doctor refusing a woman’s wishes wouldn’t agree with that.

  88. @Skepotter:

    I understand the need for long term doctor/patient relationships and that the doctor is fulfilling his obligation to think about the long term effects of a medical decision. But why is assumed that the patient hasn’t thought about the long term ramifications as well? And after the doctor voices his/her concern and informed the patient of the consequences, perhaps the patient should be given 3 days to think about it, and if they still decide that they want it, then the doctor should comply.

    Also if they change their mind, the doctor will be given a great opportunity to do that awesome “I told you so dance!”

    Obviously I’m joking about the last part..

  89. @catgirl:
    ‘So when women complain that their pharmacist refuses to sell them birth control, are they just throwing hissy fits too?’

    Could be.
    Generally no.
    Contraception is reversible. If she changes her mind, all she has to do is stop using them.
    The motive for refusing is religious. I don’t think the pharmacist has the moral right to impose his/her religion on clients.

    I’m not saying a hissy fit is a bad thing. Only that it is a childish thing when it is option number two, and there doesn’t appear to be a number 3 on the horizon.

    A hissy fit between legit options serves to clear the cobwebs and let us focus on the nextone.

  90. @Gabrielbrawley: “Since they are not qualified surgeons he is telling them what they can or cannot do. If my doctors won’t prescribe a medicine for me I can’t get the prescription.”

    If none of your doctors will prescribe the medication, why are you going to a doctor anyway. The black market would be more suitable.

    If you haven’t tried them all, theyare noit telling what you cannot do, but what they will not do.

    Why do you belive that a doctor does not have the right to refuse a medical treatment he/she deems inadvisable?

  91. my personal experience doesn’t give me the right to dictate medical procedure’s to others, I don’t know how you pulled that out of what I said, but it does give me insight into the doctors point of view, just as your decision to stay child free gives you insight to the parents point of view.

    My only position is that the doctor is refusing to do an ELECTIVE surgery, with a VERY high rate of women who change their minds. In light of SO MANY OTHER options to stay not pregnant.

    By your logic if they’re responsible enough to be permantly sterilized, then their responsible enough to stay not pregnant until they’re 30 or so, and can make that decision without the added risk of later regretting it.

    Yes people make mistakes they later regret, but in case you haven’t noticed society does place limits on what you can and can’t do to try and mediate some of those risks. Luckily the government hasn’t place those barriers in front this procedure, so if they want it done they can get it done from another doctor. This isn’t the morning after pill with 48 hours to take it. They have time and if they want it done they can get it done somewhere else. But they didn’t look to get it done somewhere else, they went after one doctor who chose not to do an ELECTIVE surgery. A doctor has the right to not preform a boob job, because it’s ELECTIVE.

    I hate using all caps but I feel I need to stress those points.

  92. @Skepotter:

    There are many options for preventing pregnancy. This couple has decided that tubal ligation is best for them and their family. Just because there’s another option out there doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be allowed to make the decision for themselves. I guess it’s possible that you are just completely unaware of the downsides of other types of contraception. Hormonal contraception is not for everyone. It doesn’t matter anyway. This woman is an adult, whether you like it or not. When older adults do things they might regret, we don’t worry about it. When younger adults do something responsible, then you’re quick to judge. The simple fact is that you don’t trust her judgment, just like her doctor, and it appears to based completely on her age. If you really think that someone her age can not make a good decision, then we should raise the age of majority. She has already made the decision to have two children, and they are permanent. She is mature enough to decide to have children and mature enough to take care of them, but apparently not mature enough to decide to not have children. If she really is too childish to make this decision for herself, then how can we possibly leave children in her care?

  93. @skepticalhippie:

    with a VERY high rate of women who change their minds

    No, 20% is not very high.

    By your logic if they’re responsible enough to be permantly sterilized, then their responsible enough to stay not pregnant until they’re 30 or so

    Why do you think she wants the tubal ligation? She’s doing it to be responsible! Are you really that dense? She wants to do the most responsible thing and you’re saying she would be more responsible by doing something less effective?

  94. @Gabrielbrawley: “No, we do not have to accept injustice and quietly go away. If you are denied something that you can legally have then you have to make a noise. The world doesn’t change when people are quiet.”

    First sentence, thumbs up. I would agree in this instance if it were ILLEGAL for her to get the tubal, but it isn’t. One doctor has said he will not do it. She has the right to seek out one who will. No one is taking that away from her.
    By insisting that this particular doctor must do it, are you not trampling on his right to make what he believes to be the most sound medical decision?

  95. @Skepotter: He isn’t claiming that he is making his decision based on medicine. If this decision was a medical decision I would be much more inclined to agree with him. He is stating that his decision is based on her age and that he doesn’t think she is old enough to understand the repercussions of her decision. I don’t know what it is like to get into a doctor in Canada. But here in Texas it is hard and take a long time. She actually has a ticking clock to be able to avoid a second major operation.

  96. @skepticalhippie: I get it. It’s ELECTIVE. It’s still something the couple thinks is in their best interest so that they do not conceive again. They shouldn’t have to choose other less reliable forms of birth control when a tubal makes sense for them. All types of birth control have failure rates. Why risk it?
    Besides, I don’t think a doctor should refuse to do a boob job just because he doesn’t think it’s in the patient’s best interest. He can explain the risks and make his reservations clear, and if he feels strongly about it he should refer her to another doctor, but he should not shut the door entirely.
    We do not know the entire story here. We do not know how many doctors this couple has gone through. We do not know their medical history or aversions to certain forms of birth control. What we know is that an adult woman, with (unnecessary) consent from her adult husband, asked for a perfectly reasonable medical procedure for her lifestyle and situation, and was refused.

    @Skepotter: Contraception is reversible, sure. It’s also not 100%. Again, why risk it?

    It would be one thing if the doctor felt she wasn’t healthy enough for an invasive surgery, or couldn’t handle the blood loss or something. But the doctor refused because he feels he knows better than the patient what is in the patient’s interest -not just in this case, but ANY patient under a certain age. Young adults are younger than old adults, but it doesn’t mean all of them are any less likely to know what they want, and know what the correct medical choice is for them.
    The doctor is judging everyone based on the irresponsibility of a few, and that is unfair.

  97. Actually all medical treatments and surgery are elective for adults. During the two hellish years that I worked in a max security prsion even the prisoners were able to elect which of the medicines they wanted to take.

  98. @Gabrielbrawley:

    Too true.. it was a trap, and we fell for it.

    Also not creepy: I’ve noticed you’re friends with Elyse on facebook and have thought “on a scale of one to full blown stalker, what would he think if I friended him?”

    And friended is a word.

  99. @catgirl:

    First off, I don’t think her decision to get a tubal is irresponsible. She has the right to seek one. A doctor, especially one who has had several bad experiences from performing them, has the right to refuse her request.

    I also see nothing wrong with a hissy fit, as long as it is just that, but here it is being used to pressure a doctor to do something he is loathe to do. Same as a kid stomping his feet ’cause dad won’t buy him candy.

    Several people have stated one way or another that the doctor does not trust the woman’s judgment.
    His medical decisions must be based on his own judgement, not yours, not mine, not hers. His judgement says ‘don’t do it’.
    Nowhere is it stated that he does not trust her judgement. Apparently, he does trust his own.

    It does not follow that trusting his own judgement means that he does not trust hers. The decisions they are making are different – hers to get a tubal, his to perform one.

    This is hypothetical: Grapevines being what they are, I think it probable that he could give her a short list of doctors who are more likely to perform it, and, if so, it wouldn’t hut him to give her that list.

  100. @Gabrielbrawley: “I don’t know what it is like to get into a doctor in Canada. But here in Texas it is hard and take a long time. She actually has a ticking clock to be able to avoid a second major operation.”

    It can be hard here, too, and this may become an issue as well. Depending on where she is exactly, it probably isn’t yet (and she’s not claiming it, yet). But it certainly could.

    I don’t really see a villain in this piece. Other than a bid of childishness, which is not particularly germane, everybody is behaving as adults.
    I wish them all well.

  101. @Gabrielbrawley: o.k here we are getting somewhere, I think 20% is high in light of the other alternatives, and that it is relatively easy to stay not pregnant, you disagree, I’m good with that.

    @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): You think that doctors and surgeons should be forced to do elective surguries, I disagree, honestly I don’t know were to go from there, but I’m o.k with that.

    I come here to have a discussion, have my ideas challenged and challenge other people’s ideas, maybe hack out a better understanding and explore opinions in a respectful way. At the end of it all I would like to think I could have a beer with anyone of you.

    @catgirl:
    Are you really that dense?,
    I don’t think I could have a beer with you.

  102. @Gabrielbrawley: The science is that it is an invasive procedure, which is a point in favor of doing it with the C-section.

    Its irreversible, which is a point for it from one perspective and a point against from another. A draw.

    It has a significant probability of negative adverse effects which diminish over time. A point for delaying beyond the C-section.

    So far its 2 – 2 on the science.

  103. @skepticalhippie: No, I don’t think doctors should be “forced” to do surgeries. I do think, though, that competent adults should not be refused because the doctor has a personal bias against the procedure.
    Should a doctor be able to refuse to do a hip replacement on a ninety-year-old because he is to old? No. Should we force the doctor to do the procedure? No. That doesn’t benefit anyone.
    A competent adult who is healthy enough for surgery should, with his or her doctor, decide what is best in each situation. The doctor should not get to decide on his own, based on the patient’s age and his bias that she might possibly change her mind.

    So. Freaking. What? So what if she changes her mind? If he is clear at the outset about his feelings and explains plainly how the procedure works and she gets it, and then later realizes her mistake, that is HER mistake. NOT the doctor’s.

  104. @Skepotter: But that isn’t the argument that the doctor is making. The argument that the doctor is making is that he thinks she might regret it latter. What would the negative adverse effects that diminish over time? The desire to have another baby with a different mand in the future? That isn’t medical or science that is suppostion and emotionalism.

  105. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina):
    “No, I don’t think doctors should be “forced” to do surgeries. I do think, though, that competent adults should not be refused because the doctor has a personal bias against the procedure.”

    Just for the record I don’t try to mischaracterize other people’s views. So I am sincere in my apology if that is what I did to you.

    You actually make some good points, I actually have trouble disagreeing with what you said.

    however

    The doctor does have the right to refuse and he is practicing that right.

    She has the right to go see another doctor, and if this is really what she wants, then she should practice that right too.

    I have a slight issue of what I view, perhaps wrongly, as the willingness for people to pave the way for people to make serious medical decisions that 20% later regret, in light of other valid options. In a sample size of 100 women who have this done 20 will regret it, it’s not as though the other 80 who didn’t regret it would have gotten pregnant. Like I said other options exist.

  106. @skepticalhippie: “Like I said other options exist.”

    That’s easy for us to say from the outside, without knowing their situation. Maybe they have considered their other options and determined that THIS is the right one for them. Other options? Sure. Other better options that make the most sense for them? Unlikely. And not our business. It’s theirs.

    Of course she can go to another doctor, and it seemed implied in the article that she would. That doesn’t make it right that the doctor thought he should decide for her whether she’s grown-up enough to make her own decisions.

    I firmly believe that women have every right to get sterilized, even if there is a possibility that they will regret it later. Yes, it’s a major medical procedure (which is why my vote would be for a simpler procedure like vasectomy or Essure if she were not already going to be having a C-section), but it’s also perfectly reasonable. And I say again, it is NOT right to punish 80% of women who would prefer to be sterilized and never have a pregnancy worry again for the sake of the 20% who apparently cannot think things through.

  107. @skepticalhippie: I’m good the current with public shaming, if nothing else it serves as a warning to potential future patients.

    Part of me would hope there is some disciplinary action action taken IF the Doctor is employed by another institution and not in their own practice (if that was in the article, I missed it) but that would be private and we should hear about it. If employed by another institution this doctor was hired to perform certain duties and that’s where their paycheck comes from. Refusing to perform these duties based on one’s own prejudices should certainly merit some sort of discipline.

  108. @skepticalhippie: For some reason I am really annoyed at your comment. Does it matter what we do and why we are on the computer? You know, there are PDA’s, wifi, flex work schedule, maybe I had the day off, maybe I sit at home on my ass eating bon bons, all kinds of options.

  109. @tiger kitty: sorry if that came out as dickish, I didn’t mean it to be. I had put:

    “I mean I’m not being critical, I just want an application.” I wanted to contribute earlier but I had a huge stack of work to plow through before I could, stupid work. I understand that people have other work schedules.

  110. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): Wasn’t talking about marriage for life. Was talking about long-term monogamy in general -which is not necessarily forever. When one half of a couple decides to get sterilized, they make that decision for the whole couple. If the couple un-couples at a later date, then the unsterilized one has a decision to make.

    But for the sterlized one, the time for decisions is past. That’s OK if they were the one that neverever wanted to reproduce under any circumstances, or had medical reasons for avoiding reproduction. But what if the only reason they got sterilized was because their now ex-partner wanted it?

    I don’t think it is necessary for both parties to be sterilized just in case their relationship ends.

    No, not both–just the one who is trying to avoid reproduction.

    So, to re-cap: A man who does not want to become a genetic father should get snipped. If he later leaves his wife or girlfriend, he gets to take the snip with him–how logical and economical! Likewise, a woman who does not want to become a genetic or gestational mother should get a tubal rather than expect each of her husbands to get snipped.

  111. @skepticalhippie: The doctor does have the right to refuse and he is practicing that right.

    She has the right to go see another doctor, and if this is really what she wants, then she should practice that right too.

    To what extent is the Canadian national health care system complicating this? Under the UK version of socialized medicine, doctors can refuse of have anything to do with National Health and specialize in diseases of the rich if they wish to, and people with enough dough are free to pretend that National Health never existed. (You still have to pay for it in taxes, just like public vs. private schools in the USA.) My understanding is that in Canada you can’t find doctors that are not part of the national health system (except for non-essentials like cosmetic surgery) and you have to go to the USA to go outside of the system.

  112. @pciszek: Well, yeah. Forgive me, but duh. I think the whole point of all of this is that you shouldn’t get sterilized unless you’re sure you want to, um, get sterilized. It would be silly and short-sighted to make a permanent change to your reproductive capabilities based on someone else’s wishes. Of course. If the only reason they got sterilized was because their now ex-partner wanted it, then they’re part of the dumb 20% that makes the rest of us suffer.

    My husband does not want children. I do not want children. So we BOTH want to avoid pregnancy. It made the most sense for him to get a vasectomy. If, for some reason, our marriage does not last, then he is still set for life and I will have to make a decision about surgery then. But he certainly didn’t get sterilized because I wanted him to, he did it because HE wanted it, and it’s right for our marriage. If he’d done it only because I wanted it, that would be the wrong decision, of course.

    I don’t think this concern applies in the situation from the article. We don’t know why the husband is “not keen on” a vasectomy. If he wants to remain viable because he doesn’t expect his marriage to last and might want to have more children in the future with someone else, well, I think that is a symptom that a whole lot else is wrong in their relationship.

    The thing is, most men I know who refuse to get a vasectomy and insist that the onus be on their partner to prevent pregnancy do so because they have the mistaken idea that they will somehow be “less of a man” if they let someone “do that to them.” Usually, it’s phrased, “I would never let a woman do that to me!” And I’m sorry, but that, too, is a bunch of crap. Yes, that’s their opinion and they’re entitled to it, but I find it ridiculous. It’s far more manly, I think, to take responsibility for yourself and your life and if that entails getting sterilized, well, so be it.

    My husband insists he would gladly get re-vasectomized yearly if he had to, to ensure his sterility. I’m not sure how many women would say that about a tubal…

    Regardless, I think we’re agreeing in principle. If you don’t want to have kids (or more kids), take responsibility for yourself and don’t expect someone else to do it for you (do as I say, don’t do as I do…). But it’s not always so simple and we don’t know all the details in this case.

  113. @Vengeful Harridan (Elexina): My husband insists he would gladly get re-vasectomized yearly if he had to, to ensure his sterility.

    How long did he have to wait afterwards before going up stairs, lifting things, etc.? He must have had a much better surgeon than some other men whom I have heard describe their post-vasectomy experience.

    If surgical sterilization only lasted a year, it would be an inferior birth control option.

  114. @pciszek: How long did he have to wait afterwards before going up stairs, lifting things, etc.? He was really only down for one day, Friday, the day it was done. He was back at work on Monday and played volleyball the following Saturday. The procedure was not without discomfort, of course, but worth every bit of pain according to him.

    If surgical sterilization only lasted a year, it would be an inferior birth control option. Of course. That’s not his point. His point is that it’s so simple and such a sure thing, if it’s done properly, that he would be willing to endure it again if necessary. It’s not necessary, though. We know that.

  115. I was down for two days after my vasectomy. Really it wasn’t two bad. It hurt but a lot of things hurt. Honest question here. Are Tubal Ligations reversible? I ask because vasectomies are reversible. I wouldn’t want it done. I love knowing that I can’t make anymore people.

  116. @pciszek: My understanding is that in Canada you can’t find doctors that are not part of the national health system (except for non-essentials like cosmetic surgery) and you have to go to the USA to go outside of the system.

    Actually untrue although lots of Republicans like to say so with scare quotes. Canada has what I like to call a three tiered system. We have medicine that is privately run and privately funded, privately run and publicly funded and then publicly run and publicly funded.

    Most family doctors are within the public system, there is no reason for them not to be but there are many specialists who are attracted to the “specificity” in the private realm.

    I do know of obstetricians who work outside the public sector, in the area where this couple lives, but none of them perform any type of anesthesia surgery.

    @Gabrielbrawley: “Are Tubal Ligations reversible? I ask because vasectomies are reversible.”

    They are reversible (a family member went through the procedure did conceive) but how many people do have success after the procedure I have no idea. However even if that isn’t successful a couple that REALLY wants to have a baby can always have IVF, a more invasive IVF, but it’s still an option. Which is exactly why I think this doctor’s refusal is a bit of a joke.

  117. @Gabrielbrawley: Are Tubal Ligations reversible? I ask because vasectomies are reversible.
    Like hypatia said, yes technically a tubal is reversible like a vasectomy. And sometimes they do fail, like vasectomies. But there are also other ways to get around having had a tubal, like adoption or IVF. Heck, women who have had hysterectomies have had babies that were biologically theirs, though they had to employ a surrogate. There are always ways to have a baby if you decide you really want to have the baby and can afford it (or not, in the case of a certain plump-lipped mega-mom…).

  118. @pciszek: Do you mean, what should she do to ensure she does not get pregnant? That’s up to her. Sterilization is an option of course, but that procedure may be risky for a person who shouldn’t be having children, depending on the nature of the concern.
    What should she do if/when she wants to have biological children? Surrogacy. She has her eggs shaken and stirred with her husband’s (or someone’s) sperm, and the fertilized eggs are implanted in a surrogate’s uterus. Assuming she lives in a state where she is “allowed” to do that.

  119. In case anyone was dying to know: Bobby Hamilton Jr. finished the race 27th (out of 43; he started 17th), in the pits, eight laps down. I heard no mention of the museum during the race, or even of Bobby Hamilton Jr. at all, for that matter.
    Of course, I didn’t watch qualifying. I expect they talked about his sponsor at least during his qualifying run.

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