Why “Twilight” is hurting America

Why “Twilight” is hurting America

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12/29 UPDATE: for more Skepchick bashing of Twilight (the book, this time), see Elles’ post on Teen Skepchick: Twilight, Lolita, and “HE LOVES HER!”
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The Broody Bunch

The Broody Bunch

Last night was date night.   My husband and I decided to have dinner and watch a movie – just a fun way to break up the work week.   Over Thanksgiving, my 13-year old niece had ordered me to go see Twilight because “It’s awesome” and “Edward is hot.”   So, I figured I’d keep my promise and go see it.   From what I had heard, this was a teen vampire movie consisting mainly of the lead characters looking meaningfully at each other and brooding about their immortality or lack thereof.   And everyone knows, mocking a silly movie is one of the foundations of an excellent date night.

The next thing I knew, it was 11 p.m. and I was  so pissed off I couldn’t get to sleep without writing this.   This movie is just plain evil.   And not because of the vampires.     Let me explain. And yes, there are spoilers.   Sorry.   Meet me after the fold for all the blood-sucking fun.   Or maybe just sucking…

For those of you living under a rock or not in the presence of pre-teen girls for the past few months, Twilight is the latest series of fantasy books.   It centers around a teenage vampire who falls in love with a human girl in high school. Stephenie Meyer, the author, is being hailed as the next J.K. Rowling.   Now, I haven’t read the books so this review is based solely on the first movie.   Here we go.

We start out with Bella, our would-be heroine, leaving her mom and stepfather to go live with her father in Forks, Washington.   We don’t really know much about Bella but that’s OK because her personality really doesn’t factor into the movie at all.   On her first day, Bella meets Edward.   Edward is pale and ripped and clearly interested in her because as soon as he sees her, he retches and leaves class.   He then disappears for several days, leaving Bella to do nothing but swoon and wonder what she could have done to offend him.

When he finally comes back, he starts toying with her – one day being friendly, the next day blowing her off. Bella puts up with this … presumably because he’s totally dreamy.   This goes on for a little while and teen angst isn’t all that surprising in a teen movie, so let’s fast forward.

Bella slowly discovers that Edward is vampire.   She learns this because he saves her from a car accident (demonstrating his strength) and then from a group of thugs in the street.   She confronts him, he admits to it and tells her he’s a dangerous  monster who can never be with her.

They then proceed to date.

Let me pause here to caveat this review:   I understand that this is a story of teen romance.   I therefore expect some amount of angst to factor in.   And maybe I’m spoiled by the Hermione Grangers and Eowyns of the past few years.   But I’ve come to expect more from female characters.   It really bothers me that this movie depicts a girl who falls in love within days and then proceeds to spend the rest of the movie supressing everything about herself for this boy.   And the worst part is that this is considered as a ‘happy ending’ for her.

The boy, in turn, never even shows any level of interest in Bella as anything more than physically attractive.   He follows her around because he feels ‘protective’ of her.   This works out well when she’s being attacked, but she doesn’t consider it even a little creepy that he’s following her, sneaking into her room at night and WATCHING HER SLEEP.

Bella never makes any attempt to stand up for herself.   The day she’s attacked (and subsequently rescued by Edward), her father gives her a can of pepper spray to protect herself.   She rolls her eyes and laughs at him, saying she doesn’t need it.   Never mind that hours earlier, she was in danger of being raped.   She has a boy to protect her now, so she doesn’t have to worry about it.

But protection and safety comes with a price.   Edward is constantly on the edge of control.   His attraction to Bella means that he wants to consume her (literally).   So, when they finally kiss,   Edward has to stop, pull himself away and stay back.   So, Bella has to suppress her own sexuality for him as well.   Because, of course, sex is bad and can lead to the guy going into an frenzy and losing control. “I can’t lose control around you,” Edward says.   And of course, that means he has to keep control at all times. Of himself and of her.

This movie makes me sad at so many levels. But most of all, it makes me sad that thousands of teenage girls, including my niece, think this is one of the greatest movies ever.   That this is how love is supposed to be.   That it’s romantic to subsume your entire being for a boy with a spiky haircut and awesome abs.   And that the only way to attract said man is to look a certain way. Edward never fell in love with Bella’s mind, her kindness  or her wit.   He noticed her because of how she looked and, moreso, how she smelled.

At the end of the movie, Bella asks Edward to turn her into a vampire so she can be with him forever.   Ok, probably not the best decision and it’s probably for the best that Edward refuses.   But even so, it is the only time she actually stands up and displays any independent thought for herself. And Edward makes another decision for her and refuses her  - presumably relegating her to a life of watching herself get old while he stays young.   Not to mention, no sex. (Yes, I know they get past that in later books in the series but this is about the movie and she doesn’t know that at the time.)

Twilight may seem like a harmless teenage flick. And maybe it is.   Or maybe it’s just another Red Riding Hood or Cinderella  fairy tale created to force young women into a stereotype of how to behave, how to act and how to fall in love.   Trust me people, take your kids to see Bolt instead.   All it has is scientologists… :)

Maria Walters (a.k.a. Masala Skeptic) has spent a lot of time in ‘furrin parts,’ including Hong Kong, Trinidad, and Pittsburgh. Although her passport is from India, she’s spent most of her adult life in the United States. She currently lives in Atlanta and has an unhealthy affection for science fiction, Neil Gaiman and all things Muppet.

555 Comments

  1. my 15 year old niece ran into the house this thanksgiving wearing a Twilight shirt and squealing like a vampire. it was amusing enough to make me want to connect with her on some level and see twilight with my wife.

    thank you for saving us from that fate Masala!

  2. These books are so bad. So badly written. They are awful and sexist and have weird Christian undertones (a virgin vampire? REALLY?) and I do not understand why my many otherwise intelligent friends read this shit.

  3. omg! dumbledore was gay! the world is over!

    opps…wrong book

  4. @marilove: Agreeeeed.

    There’s a suspicion that the books actually have Mormon undertones, by virtue of Stephanie Meyer being a Mormon, but I’m not sure that’s true. I think they’re just extremely stupid, and reflect a catastrophically immature idea of what love is.

    I guess, in Twilight’s defense though (really? Do I really have to defend it?), amazingly stupid teenagers being stupid and losing their minds has basically been a staple of romantic literature since there have been teenagers at all.

    What bothers me, though, is that, isn’t Edward a hundred years old? SHOULDN’T HE KNOW BETTER?

  5. Yep, Twilight is terrible. Read the first book and barely finished it…wrote a somewhat snarky review. :)
    http://limadean.wordpress.com/2008/10/22/a-few-words-about-twilight/

  6. @braak: I believe Edward is a hundred years old, but don’t forget that he’s a hundred year old teenager. The dichotomy of his hormone driven body versus his respect? for Bella is too heavy and introspective for me.

  7. @marilove: The undertones are Mormon, actually.

    I read all the books and, disregarding the quality of the writing, the story lines only get worse as the series progresses. Book 4 almost made me puke.

    Why did I read them all? Morbid curiosity? I like YA fiction and I love vampires. And I hate not finishing a story because it’s the ending for me that makes it good or bad. And in this series, the ending is just horrible.

    Anyway, on to Fangland by John Marks. Not YA, but definitely full of vampires.

  8. Oh, and there’s no premarital sex in this series. I hope that’s not a spoiler for anyone. The first sex experience (in book 4) is so bogus, I had to wonder if the author is actually still a virgin. Oh wait, she has kids, doesn’t she? So she’s apparently selling the Mormon fantasy instead of reality.

  9. After Buffy the Vampire Slayer went off the air, I didn’t think the “teen angst with vampires” genre really needed to be revisited.

  10. @pkitty: You know, I’m actually glad I got to see it, simply because now I have the ammo to discuss it with my 13-year old niece and maybe get her to see some of the flaws in it. Probably a lost cause but at least I can say I tried :)

  11. @Cleon: I loved Buffy. Alas, this was no Buffy.

  12. ‘Near Dark’ (1987), a low budget but very well done film, is a far superior entry into the vampire/teenagers-in-love genre.

    Also, there is a Norweigan film in the vampire genre that every major reviewer is raving about as one of the best films of the year (and is already in the imdb top 250 of all time) called ‘Let the Right One In’ (2008), which is supposed to be outstanding. Somebody in my film group took their teens to both this film and ‘Twilight’ and even they said that there was no comparison. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1139797/

    Sorry, but it is one of my civic duties to steer people away from bad film.

  13. @Masala Skeptic: I may still be enticed to go see it, but seeing that I live 7 hours from my niece, I may just wait until we visit at the end of the year. Maybe she’ll want to see it again and I’ll take her.

    Bonus points for the cool uncle, but do I really want to reinforce these ideas by going to see it with her.

    Maybe I’ll just have to offset the movie with some cool Skepchick gear!

  14. @braak: A virgin vampire? Yeah, I’d say mormon undertones are pretty evident.

  15. @TheSkepticalMale: “Let The Right One In” looks amazing! Thanks for the heads-up.

  16. @writerdd: Yeah, I meant Mormon. THIS BOOK IS SO BAD I CANNOT THINK STRAIGHT! Also, lack of coffee.

  17. @writerdd: Have you read any Charlie Huston? His Already Dead series (well, that’s the first in the series) is awesome and dark and noir and about YAY vampires :D

  18. My is a middle school teacher so since all her students were talking about it she decided to give it a read and I picked it up while she had it. Neither of us made it through the first few chapters and we’re both fans of vampire books and movies. So badly written and the plot is terrible. Comparing the writer to JK Rowling is such an insult to Rowling and I’m not even much of a Harry Potter fan.

  19. I have to say that I think you’ve got most of that wrong. I’ll concede that it really is difficult to get a real understanding for what’s going on by only watching the movie, though. As a guy (yes a guy, not a 13 year old girl) who has read all the books, I have to say it’s a wee bit different than you make it out to be.
    First of all, Edward is horrified when he meets Bella because she is like a drug to him. For whatever reason, her blood is more appealing to him than anyone else’s ever could be. It causes him almost physical pain to hold himself in check, which is a common theme throughout the books.
    Secondly, Bella is more than a little mad at Edward when he reacts the way his does. She’s not simply concerned about how she might have offended him “because he’s dreamy.”
    I don’t really understand why you say she’s suppressing everything about herself to be with Edward, either. She has just about no identity to speak of. She’s a total loner with no goals or ambitions and very little if any joy in life before she meets Edward. Edward was pretty much the same way. They were lonely. They found each other. They both make sacrifices to stay together. That’s what the story is really about. And later on, Bella actually saves Edward a few times.
    Finally, I don’t know what else to say to the notion that “Edward never fell in love with her mind” other than that it’s totally false. He absolutely, unequivocally fell in love with all of her. I don’t really have the space to go in to that here because it would take, oh, about four books to really explain that.
    As I said, I realize the movie is a poor representation of the books. Give the story a chance, though, movie aside. The movie was really meant for people that were already fans and knew what was going on anyway.

  20. @TheSkepticalMale: You are welcome. But good luck finding it, in my market with 4 million people (Phoenix), it is only playing on one screen and only this week. (I am going to see it Thursday night.)

    The issue that was raised with my film group is whether we (and by “we”, I mean the mass media and movie industry) dumb down entertainment too much for our teenagers and do them a disservice. I think the fact that these particular teens I mentioned (a small sample size, to be sure) were able to appreciate the far more intelligent and artfully done genre film – even a foreign one – offers evidence that we underestimate the intelligence of teens.

  21. Sorry I meant @pkitty.

  22. @Noadi: “Comparing the writer to JK Rowling is such an insult to Rowling and I’m not even much of a Harry Potter fan.”

    I agree. I’m not a huge Harry Potter fan, but I give Rowling props. She’s a decent writer and made a fantastic, original story, with strong characters.

    Twilight is just crap.

  23. These are some great points about movies/books geared toward this age group in general (or any age group!) and about our society. I love how it seems they reinforce the idea of male sexuality being this big uncontrollable thing and how female sexuality is rarely portrayed as powerful. Why are we still doing this?!?! If girls get the sex talk, all they get is the “you’ll have to keep the boys away because they only want one thing” I always hated that because it made me feel shameful for also wanting sex (because GIRLS DO!) Sometimes I can’t believe we are still reinforcing these ridiculous ideas.

  24. I’ve been following the “Twilight saga” via Cleolinda on LJ, and it’s horrifying… in the really bad ways. I’m also not precisely thrilled that my (Mormon) ex and my daughter both think that the books and movie are “great.” Le sigh.

    Of course, I’m going to try capitalizing on the fanwank with my “Moti-Vent Calendar” entry for Friday… I’m shameless that way, I guess.

  25. @TheSkepticalMale: Yeah, I’ve really been wanting to see Let the Right One In, but I just never have time to go to the movies. I’ll have to wait for the DVD.

    Maria, hilarious (though a bit sad obviously) review. Thanks!

  26. @TheSkepticalMale: I think your market has a better chance of getting the film than mine. There are distinct disadvantages to living in a smaller city like Louisville, KY. Plus, we’re surrounded by quite a few holy rollers considering our close local to the bible belt.

  27. As an aspiring YA author myself, reading stuff like this gives me hope. :-)

  28. @Rebecca and @pkitty: Yes, thank the gods for netflix.

  29. @videogamerx: Great perspective, thanks. Like I said, having not read the books, I have no business commenting on them. However, a lot of what you say is part of the story is what bothered me. Bella basically had no personality? I agree – she certainly didn’t in the movie. Is it too much to ask for a character who actually has some depth?

    And, if you’re young and haven’t figured out your personality yet, the worst thing you can do is hook up with someone and then you have no identity as yourself – only as yourself with that person.

    I just think it sends a lot of really screwy messages about relationships to girls at an age where they’re impressionable and trying to figure out what it’s all about.

  30. This was done 10 years ago…on Buffy…and (from the sounds of this) Joss did it better. But I haven’t red the book or seen the movie yet so I’ll reserve judgment for the time being. Ironically, this post made me somewhat keen to see Twilight…although not necessarily willing to pay money for it.

  31. @TheSkepticalMale: I just saw that the film played at a local theater for one night – November 26th. Netflix go go go.

  32. @Masala Skeptic: I remember being a teenager and I remember feeling (however ridiculously) that my boyfriend at the time was THE ONE and I was going to marry him and have 100 babies. The feelings are real. The problem is, they are based on a hormonal and not-fully-developed brain. And we didn’t need vampires to make it any more sexy/exciting/wow…a poorly functioning frontal lobe does that just fine on its own. I can see how an author might want to metaphor that, but sometimes I think these stories end up coming out shallow because they are not actually doing justice to the real feelings that teenagers have and how serious they are.

  33. To give the two main Twilight characters some credit they aren’t as stupid as Romeo and Juliette.

    My only interest in these stories (haven’t read and don’t plan on reading) had to do with the town of Forks. My grandparent’s worked and lived in this small wet logging town near the Olympic National Park and in the middle of nowhere. Fans of twilight have been a real plus for the local economy which has been in the crapper for years. The movie was filed in other locations in Washington State and that alone may get me into the movie.

  34. @Kimbo Jones: Yes, I completely agree. The feelings are very real and the actions (however stupid) may be well portrayed in Twilight. My problem is that this movie makes it seem like that’s ok. That your best option is to succumb to that infatuation because that’s what love really is. When in reality, relationships are complex and involved and while you can enjoy the emotions of that first love, you can still be smart and strong about it as well. Maybe I’m asking for too much :)

    @James Fox – couldn’t agree with you more about R&J. I love Shakespeare but I *hate* that play.

  35. @marilove: I’ll gladly admit to enjoying the Potter books on a number of levels. One of the things about Rowling’s writing that kept my interest was watching her writing style and skills develop. Rowling’s writing appeared to improve with every book up through the fourth and remained fairly consistent to the end. I also appreciate that despite her increasing fortune and success she worked hard on the stories and seemed to respect her fans and her characters.

  36. @pkitty: Exactly how does a vampire squeak? :-D

    @kimbo jones: Very good points, but one must also remember that the general idea behind these series is to make lot and lots of money off of these kids, not to create meaningful literature. Remember the cardinal rules of writing: “Write what you know and always write for your audience.”

    I kind of relegate this series to a “Left Behind for Mormons” potboiler category. It’s about as factual and makes about as much sense as LaHaye’s purple prose does. From what I’ve heard, the only thing “Twilight” is missing is the sentence, “It was a dark and stormy night.”

  37. @Masala Skeptic: Yeah, making something magic and vampires lets the author get away with not having the characters actually deal with real issues, themselves, and their partner. It’s easier to write that story. So you might not want to hold your breath. :P

  38. From what I understand, at one point in one of the later books Edward physically disables Bella’s car to prevent her from leaving.

    NOT CREEPY AT ALL. NOT EVEN REMOTELY THE SORT OF THING THAT AN ABUSIVE SPOUSE DOES.

    Seriously, Edward sounds like the villain from all those Lifetime dramas about women overcoming evil misogynists to achieve independence and revel in their womanhood. Only, in Twilight, he’s supposed to be the good guy.

    Way to make Lifetime Original Movies seem progressive and feminist, Stephanie Meyer.

  39. @Joshua: But when a dreamy vampire does it, it’s cute!

    :P

  40. I’m a 30-something heterosexual male, so maybe I simply can’t understand what’s considered “hot” by teenage girls. But in picture above, Edward looks like a neanderthal with Down’s syndrome.

  41. Personally, the only thing I take away from Twilight is that teenage boys everywhere must be extremely disappointed that vampires don’t really exist to bite them and guarantee that they will never stop getting laid…because apparently EVERY girl wants to fuck a vampire.

  42. @James Fox: Yeah, I really respect Rowling. I’ve only read the first three books, but plan on reading the rest at some point (probably starting from the beginning). I don’t have a problem with people who love Harry Potter — Rowling is an actual writer and story teller. This Twlight crap is just … ugh.

  43. I thought Rowling’s editor let her down in the last couple of books. They were too long and rambling and needed to be reigned in. My guess is that the publisher knew they’d make a shit load of money now matter what, so they didn’t bother editing them at all. And a bigger book can have a higher price tag, to boot.

  44. @Joshua: He only does it because he really loves her… just like when he smacks her around…

    Also, I loved the HP books. I thought she dealt with real teen emotions and hormones very well, while still keeping the characters interesting and consistent and smart. It can be done…

  45. @Joshua: SERIOUSLY?! And that’s *okay?*

    Ugh, these books are disgusting.

  46. About Romeo and Juliet:

    I think this play has been poorly treated by just about every famous movie adaptation, from the Zefirelli to the Baz Luhrmann. Reading the text, the feud between Montagues and Capulets comes across as a dying thing. Only Tybalt takes it truly seriously. The heads of the families are old men who are looking for a face-saving excuse to write off their grudges (“’tis not hard, I think, for men as old as we to keep the peace”). Lord Capulet thinks that Romeo is a fine and upstanding youth. If the heads of the families had discovered that their kids liked each other, a marriage with much fanfare and festivity could well have been the way they resolved their differences.

    Romeo is seventeen, and old enough to know that the feud is on its way out. Juliet, three years younger, is not so worldy-wise, and has soaked up the tales told by her cousin Tybalt, the one hothead who is really preventing a satisfactory conclusion. In the balcony scene, Romeo is all “What light through yonder window breaks”, not mentioning or caring that his love is a Capulet, whereas Juliet monologues about Romeo’s family affiliation and precious little else. “Deny thy father and refuse thy name”, etc.

    Things only go wrong because (a) Romeo is too daft and besotted to take things above board (if his girlfriend wants the romance and intrigue of a secret marriage, then by God she’ll have it!). Also, compounding the error, (b) Friar Laurence is just as romantic and goes along with the secret-marriage business, then comes up with a cockamimie plan to “save the day” instead of being forthright about what he’d done. Romeo, barely entering adulthood by the standards of his day, can’t bear the full responsibility for things going wrong; his mentor, who should by rights have acted like an adult, royally fucked the pooch.

    There’s no real tragedy in watching people who are truly, genuinely “star-crossed lovers”. The tragedy only arises if the affair could have ended well, but didn’t. The cinema industry, not so willing to forgo the “excitement” of a full-blown, active blood feud, butchers the part of the story which makes it worth reading.

  47. @QuestionAuthority: ok, you got me. vampire mice squeak. vampire nieces talk non-stop and say “omg” every omg other omg word omg omg

  48. I have heard not one good thing about these books or the movie, but I have no personal opinion since I have no personal experience with them. So my question is more general…

    How should the parent of a 13 year old girl deal with this? We all know prohibition is always bad, so do you just try to talk about the themes with them? Offer other, more progressive media to counterbalance?

    Having seen ‘Let the Right One In’, I highly doubt most teens would be into it…or even most adults. It is more of an art film, and such things have a more narrow appeal. Personally, I found it long and bleak, the moments of absolute kitsch tugging me through. While good as art, and creative in many aspects, I can’t say I found it enjoyable. It sucked all my motivation for that afternoon…I was actually going to go see some art afterward, but I ended up just wanting to sit on my couch and stare off into space for a while.

  49. @Expatria: Hmmm. The vampire bite is a very sexualized thing, of course (for just about everybody except Cassidy in the Preacher comics). So, would a teenage boy finding a vampire to bite him be like being queer in order to get chicks?

  50. @Blake Stacey: Ah, yes, the lack of basic communication that fuels nearly every Shakespeare plot (and so many sitcoms). I do love Shakespeare, but sometimes I tire of this simple plot device.

  51. @stacie: I think the best thing to do, if your kid wants to see it, is let her. See it with her, and then discuss it. No single movie or piece of literature is going to corrupt anyone’s mind one way or the other. You can use the movie as an example, talk about what’s good and bad and have it be the springboard for real discussion (like we’re doing here).

    And, if she decides she wants to see it alone and doesn’t really want to discuss it one way or the other, it probably won’t destroy her anyway. Because you can also lead by examples in real life. Most kids know that fiction is fiction but it’s always good to have real-world, cool role models for them to feel more of a connection to.

  52. Also:

    Edward is pale and ripped and clearly interested in her because as soon as he sees her, he retches and leaves class.

    WHAT THE HELL IS A 108-YEAR-OLD VAMPIRE DOING IN HIGH SCHOOL?

    If you have the physical appearance of a seventeen-year-old, you could pass for an adult, or at least a high-school graduate. (Robert Pattison, the actor who plays Edward, was born on 13 May 1986: he can drink in the local sports bar, for Christ’s sake.) What about the high-school environment is so damn captivating that you’d want to subject yourself to it for decades on end? Four years was more than enough for me and everyone I knew, and I don’t think the plague of “senioritis” which struck midway through our last year was restricted to Virgil I. Grissom High. Is aceing the AP Biology exam for the seventh time running really that exciting for you? Holy fuck.

  53. And of course it all gets worse in later books. But what absolutely destroys me is this: if you mention to fans of the book series that Edward is controlling and abusive in many ways towards Bella? They scream at you “NO! IT’S OKAY BECAUSE HE LOVES HER!”

    How many women have done the same thing when faced with an abusive partner? It’s okay for him to do this, because deep down he really loves me? And these girls are protecting a fictional character with the exact same arguments: She’s too weak to protect herself and he just wants to be a gentleman and save her. She doesn’t know any better so it’s okay for him to treat her like that. If she really didn’t like the treatment, she’d tell him!

    It scares me not because I think Twilight is a cause of all of this. I feel like it’s a noticeable symptom in a bigger problem: young women are not being taught to recognize emotional abuse and it’s not being impressed upon them that it’s just as harmful to you mentally as physical abuse. I feel like the books’ popularity is a result of women being taught that the ideal man is one who will take care of you, so long as you’re willing to follow his orders absolutely and never question his rule.

  54. @stacie:

    Having seen ‘Let the Right One In’, I highly doubt most teens would be into it…or even most adults. It is more of an art film, and such things have a more narrow appeal. Personally, I found it long and bleak, the moments of absolute kitsch tugging me through. While good as art, and creative in many aspects, I can’t say I found it enjoyable. It sucked all my motivation for that afternoon.

    What is necessarily wrong with long and bleak? Does a film have to have a happy ending to be enjoyable? I mean, this is the vampire genre, after all. (I was not a fan of Buffy.) I am going to see it Thursday. In our film group, there are 7 out of 7 thumbs up, including two teens. (I think we underestimate teens’ intelligence and ability to appreciate art.)

  55. @Blake Stacey:

    WHAT THE HELL IS A 108-YEAR-OLD VAMPIRE DOING IN HIGH SCHOOL?

    Child molesters go to amusement parks.

    Statutory rapists go to high schools.

  56. @Blake Stacey: Good point – maybe Edward just has a fetish for young girls, like nothing more than a Humbert Humbert trapped in a young guy’s body … Hmmm, suddenly ‘Twilight’ doesn’t seem so wholesome now … By the way, speaking of ‘Romeo and Juliet’, later in the series of books, doesn’t Edward try to kill himself when he thinks his girlfriend is dead?

  57. @Blake Stacey: What’s a 108 year-old vampire doing in high school? Cruising for chicks, obviously.

  58. @Blake Stacey: The girls stay the same age.

  59. @TheSkepticalMale:

    Humbert Humbert only liked females between the ages of nine and fourteen, inclusive.

  60. Would a 108 year old vampire going after a human-normal mid-teenaged girl be child abuse? Molestation? Sexual predation? Predation, period?

    Skeptical Male: Could the justice system handle a case like this? How do you prove he’s 108 years old?

  61. @QuestionAuthority: Cut him in half and count the rings.

  62. @Blake Stacey:Back in my day, the Freshman nymphets always seemed to be the easier prey for the Senior guys.

  63. @Blake Stacey: Good point! Clearly Edward is like every guy you hated in high school and beyond – the one who had such a great time in high school that he never really gave it up. The one who never got new friends, or moved away from the area, or stopped going to the school dances until the police showed up . . .

  64. @QuestionAuthority: DMV records will eventually catch up with him … Can’t drive the hot car (that goes with the hot bod) for too long without tags.

  65. @Blake Stacey: Correct on Humbert, but clearly Edward can’t pass for a 5th grader, so he takes what he can get.

  66. @Joshua, Gabrielbrawley, TheSkepticalMale, Kimbo Jones:

    Makes the whole business even more squicky than before, doesn’t it?

    Rest assured, if I ever write a vampire story, it will follow the time-honoured tradition of adolescent lesbianism. To quote J. S. Le Fanu’s Carmilla (1872),

    She used to place her pretty arms about my neck, draw me to her, and laying her cheek to mine, murmur with her lips near my ear, “Dearest, your little heart is wounded; think me not cruel because I obey the irresistible law of my strength and weakness; if your dear heart is wounded, my wild heart bleeds with yours. In the rapture of my enormous humiliation I live in your warm life, and you shall die–die, sweetly die–into mine. I cannot help it; as I draw near to you, you, in your turn, will draw near to others, and learn the rapture of that cruelty, which yet is love; so, for a while, seek to know no more of me and mine, but trust me with all your loving spirit.”

    And when she had spoken such a rhapsody, she would press me more closely in her trembling embrace, and her lips in soft kisses gently glow upon my cheek.

    [...] Her murmured words sounded like a lullaby in my ear, and soothed my resistance into a trance, from which I only seemed to recover myself when she withdrew her arms.

    And, shortly thereafter:

    Sometimes after an hour of apathy my strange and beautiful companion would take my hand and hold it with a fond pressure, renewed again and again; blushing softly, gazing in my face with languid and burning eyes, and breathing so fast that her dress rose and fell with the tumultuous respiration. It was like the ardour of a lover; it embarrassed me; it was hateful and yet overpowering; and with gloating eyes she drew me to her, and her hot lips travelled along my cheek in kisses; and she would whisper, almost in sobs, “You are mine, you shall be mine, and you and I are one for ever.” Then she has thrown herself back in her chair, with her small hands over her eyes, leaving me trembling.

    Yes, 1872.

  67. I haven’t read the books or seen the movie, but from the comments, I’m having trouble understanding why there are vampires at all in the story.

    I mean, does anyone die a brutal, bloody death in this movie? Is the fact that they are vampires just a stylistic plot device to symbolize why they can never be together, or do the vampires do any of the things we love vampires to do?

  68. @Blake Stacey: The inability to be forthright seems to define all British literary tension, emotional entanglements, sorrow, tragedy and humor.

    FAAAULTYY!!!

  69. I hate to change the subject somewhat, but in the vein (sorry) of avoiding the same tired cliches in the vampire genre, did anyone else see Abel Ferrera’s ‘The Addiction’ (1995) (with Lili Taylor, Christopher Walken)?

  70. @Sam Ogden: I think that the whole vampire thing is designed to create some sort of tension – like “I love you, but if you make me too hot and bothered, I might have to eat you, and not in a good way” or “I love you, but eventually you are going to get old and out of my age range for what I consider hot.”

  71. @TheSkepticalMale:

    So, this kid is a killer bloodsucking vampire and seducer of mortal, just sensitive to a chick he really digs? Is this story scary at all?

  72. @Sam Ogden: The vampires FUCKING SPARKLE. They sparkle. No, really.

  73. The best stories I have read involving females and vampires are “Bloodsucking Fiends: A Love Story” and “You Suck: A Love Story” both by Christopher Moore. Witty, fun, and have people reacting in more or less reasonable ways even the face of absurd situations. Best of all the female leads are not helpless screamers or empty-headed, love-sick puppies. I think Chris does an excellent job of portraying the femine perspective (as nearly as I tell given my obvious Y-disability).

    These books are excellent reads, and eminently filmable, except given their virtues, are almost certain to not appeal to Hollywood types.

  74. @davew: Yah Christopher Moore!

  75. @Sam Ogden: The author has claimed she “hates horror.” She reportedly found The Lost Boys terrifying and couldn’t sit through Interview with the Vampire when it was on TV.

    She claims the whole thing is really meant to be a love story, because “love is the strongest emotion.”

  76. @Sam Ogden: I agree with you Sam. I never liked the hammy Buffy series either. That’s why I recommend ‘Near Dark’ (1987) – star-crossed lovers plus real vampires doing real vampire stuff (read: blood). And Bill Paxton’s scene in the bar is truly awesome (e.g., “Fuckin’ finger-lickin’ good! Whoo! Hoo!”)

  77. @newageamazon: OH MY GOD. Someone who claims to hate horror is writing about Vampires?! Wow. She took vampire lore, which is FUCKING HORROR, and turned it into a sparkling, Mormon, sexist mess. Ugh.

    @TheSkepticalMale: I think you might really like Charlie Huston’s stuff.

  78. @newageamazon: “She claims the whole thing is really meant to be a love story, because “love is the strongest emotion.””

    So, she did exactly what I thought she did: Used vampire lore to lure in teenage girls to read her crappy, crappy love story. What a farce.

  79. @marilove: Her interviews are somewhere between hysterical and terrifying. Because at first you think “Wow, this is fantastic humor and parody!” And then you suddenly realize “Oh wait, no it’s not. She’s serious…”

  80. @newageamazon:

    The author has claimed she “hates horror.” She reportedly found The Lost Boys terrifying and couldn’t sit through Interview with the Vampire when it was on TV.

    She claims the whole thing is really meant to be a love story, because “love is the strongest emotion.”

    Wtf?

    It has vampires and it’s not a horror flick? What is it, the Teen Wolf of the new millennium?

    Again I have to ask why there are vampires at all in this movie.

  81. @Sam Ogden: She had a “romantic dream” that inspired the whole thing about a glittery vampire who met a beautiful young woman in a meadow. I do not joke.

    That’s what she claims, at least. As far as I can tell, it’s all an abstinence metaphor. Biting = penetration = sex in just about ALL vampire lore. And in Twilight, if you get bitten just once, you’re a vampire and subject to the same hunger…unless you can control yourself.

    It gets better in later books when Edward won’t “bite” Bella until after they get married. No, THAT’S not thinly veiled.

  82. @newageamazon: God. And people actually read this shit.

  83. @newageamazon: That’s just total BS. Everyone knows the strongest emotion is stabbiness.

  84. @marilove: Not just read, but obsess over. It’s just scary.

  85. @marilove: I will have to look into it. How long do you think it will be before they make ‘Already Dead’ into a film?

    I like anything that’s different, which is the problem I have with spending the time/money to see/read ‘Twilight.’ (By the way, I have tried the approach of “never mind what every single critic says, I will have an open mind and see it for myself” – it doesn’t really work.)

    As for novels, I could appreciate the original ‘Dracula’ (a morality tale of Victorian values that shows how films of the same name stray so far from the original material) and ‘I Am Legend’ (a cautionary or perhaps a commentary on the nature of evolution), but not so much ‘Salem’s Lot’ (which didn’t seem to have much of a point). As for films, up until that time, ‘Near Dark’ (1987) was the only film that took that angle (teen/vampires), other than ‘The Lost Boys’ that had a big budget and came out at the same time and which I thought was inferior. (Did you ever notice that genre films always come out in twos – mob films, meteor-hitting-the-earth films, tornado films, etc.?)

    I found that Buffy was neither funny nor scary. I’m not sure what it was supposed to be. All I know is that I tried.

  86. @Rebecca: Which is, interestingly enough, what these books and their hardcore fans make me feel!

  87. Where are all the Teen Skepchicks to comment on this?

  88. @Gabriel Brawley: #61 COTW!

  89. @TheSkepticalMale: I really liked the book version of I Am Legend; I understand the Will Smith film isn’t as good. I’ve never seen “The Addiction” but a couple of friends who did see it thought it was just bizarre. I can’t remember the exact quote, but one of them said it was as though a freshman philosophy major had written an existentialist movie, then added vampires later.

    My little sister (16) wants me to take her to see “Twilight” for her Christmas gift. I’m wondering if the theater will care if I smuggle my iPod in. *sigh*

    Rome & Juliet is the “Chasing Amy” of Shakespeare for me, in that I always want to stand up and yell at the protagonists for being morons at a certain point.

  90. @TheSkepticalMale: I think Buffy knew it was hammy on some level, which made it watchable. I avoided it like the plague when I was in high school (because everyone loved it, and I’m contrary that way), but my fiance made me watch it and it grew on me. Probably because I like stories like that in general (I watch Supernatural “religiously”). And like it or no, it still sounds better than Twilight (based on what I’ve heard so far).

  91. Holy shit. And I was going to buy at least one of those books for my niece, who’s a pretty mature 10 and shares my love of good horror and fantasy. Thank you all so much for saving us both from those books and/or the movie. It just looks too misogynistic and icky.

    I suspect the reason there are vampires in there is the same reason that Tanya Huff said she wrote the “Blood Ties” series: vampires sell books.

  92. @TheSkepticalMale: I don’t know, but they should! :D They probably won’t, though, because it’s not Twilight-sparkling-vampires. :(

    I don’t read just anything that is different, though I do that too. Like to read stuff with literary merit, though. I’m kind of a book snob. Well, a book snob who appreciates old school King (Salem’s Lot was not a favorite of mine, though).

    Buffy was made for teen girls, mostly. :) I liked the first 3 or 4 seasons, but after that I was just like … eh. I didn’t find it scary or even particularly funny, but it was entertaining, and Buffy, at least in the earlier seasons, was a strong, independent teenage girl, which is kind of rare on tv. So that was nice to see.

    Have you seen True Blood on HBO yet?? It is the complete opposite of Twilight. Majorly gorey (LOTS of blood), and lots of vampire sex. It can be totally cheese-tastic sometimes, but it’s loads of fun and Sookie (the female lead) is AWESOME. She stands up for herself, ALWAYS, and doesn’t take crap from anyone … including vampires.

    Also, shape shifter, it has a shape shifter!!!

    The first season just ended and it was picked up for a second season pretty early on. I bet NetFlix will have it soon.

  93. @Kimbo Jones: Oh, Buffy was most aware they were hammy and campy, which made the first couple of seasons loads of fun. It got kind of ridiculous near the end, though, but that’s common for most tv shows that go on for many seasons, I guess.

  94. @marilove: Have you read the books that ‘True Blood’ is based on? I just finished the first one and actually think I like it more than the series.

  95. @marilove: Buffy should have ended when Gellar wanted out.

  96. It’s even worse, I think. I read an interview with Meyer where she said she deliberately wrote the Bella character to have no real personality or defining characteristics so that the reader would put herself (let’s be real, it’s not a book marketed to males) directly into the story *as* Bella. I find that a cheap trick for a writer, since it happens innately with most readers without any help. From reading this review, I have to wonder if it not only contributes to the young readers getting so insanely hooked into the books, but also contributes to this imbalance of power in the protagonists’ relationship.

    I still haven’t read the books or seen the movie, but with an 11 year old daughter, I’ll have to screen both, I’m sure. (gag)

    You should go find all the online communities that are made up not of teen girls, but of middle-aged women who have fallen in love with Edward and wrapped their real lives so much around these stories that they are neglecting their families and rejecting their husbands for not meeting up to the wonderfullness that is Edward. Disgusting.

  97. @Jason W:
    The Will Smith film is so-so, mainly because they dump the third act, which is really the thematic heart of the novel (i.e., the main character realizes that he is the scourge). What I noticed when watching the commentary was that ‘I Am Legend’ as a novel was ironically really the prototype for the zombie genre of films (e.g., ‘Night of the Living Dead’ and onward). I also thought that, as a film, ’28 Days Later’ was much better.

    That’s a pretty good description of ‘The Addiction’ and it wasn’t on my list of the best films of the year, but the reason I brought it up was that the film took one aspect of vampirism and did something very different with it – addressing the psychological and philosophical nature of addiction. The not-so-subtle idea: drug-addicts are like vampires.

  98. @marilove: By way of contribution to this thread, I direct you all to the greatest parody of the Twilight/ Vampire phenomenon ever: (that I’ve seen in the past week) http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/210813
    Because they sparkle.

  99. @Rebecca:

    I’m sure you know those “Love is…” comics. I think you should create a series of “Stabbiness is…” comics, replete with anomie, derision, and gore.

  100. @newageamazon: Not yet! I plan on it, though. I usually try to read the books first, but my friend made me watch the show and I was hooked. :) I’ve heard they are quite awesome, and focus on Sookie. Which sounds awesome.

    I bet they are better than the books that Dexter was based on. I tried to read those and oh, my GOD, that was the first time I ever enjoyed a series more than the books it was bases on.

  101. @marilove: bases! all are bases belong to us!

  102. @marilove: Agreed. Buffy sort of went from strong teenage girl dealing with crazy circumstances on top of normal teenage stuff, to whiny basket-case reveling in Spike’s abuse. Then there was the whole magic = drugs sledgehammer to the face that was season 6. The later seasons are sort of like Episodes 1-3 of Star Wars for me — watchable because I know what they could have been and for what my imagination makes them because of what I know and enjoy about the characters.

  103. @TheSkepticalMale: I saw the “alternate” (what I like to think of as the “correct”) ending to “I am Legand” and it was much better.

    I haven’t read the book yet, though. Dammit. My book list is way, way, way too long.

  104. @marilove: Vampire sex would be fun I suppose. Alot less restraint? I mean, if he/she bites you too hard, you just regenerate. However, it could whole new arguments in the bedroom about bodily fluids (e.g., “Hey, a quart for each pint is not what I call ‘sharing’!”)

    I understand who Buffy was marketed to, but back in the day, my 20-30 year-old friends were watching Buffy and trying to convince me of how great it was. I think that whole phenomenon established the maximum number of episodes of a TV show that I will watch based on others’ opinions alone (3 episodes).

  105. @Kimbo Jones: “to whiny basket-case reveling in Spike’s abuse”

    YES! I caught a few of the later episodes, and that is what I felt. I’m glad I’m not the only one.

  106. @TheSkepticalMale: I loved “28 Days Later” when I finally got around to seeing it (this year, actually…I’m a cheapskate). Yeah, there are a lot of positive comparisons you could make between it and I Am Legend.

    @Expatria: “Stabbiness is…” wins for best idea this week. :)

  107. @marilove: The third act of the novel is different than the film – either ending.

  108. @Zambiglione: omg awesome. i can’t play it at work but i will watch it tonight. lol southpark.

    I know 30 year old men who STILL adore Buffy lol. It really grabbed people. It wasn’t horrible, though — it was well-written, and had a fun story line, and had a strong female lead (at least at first). So no complaints from me.

    You should check out True Blood. Bill, the lead vampire dude was at one point forced to “change” an innocent, bible-thumping woman into a vampire, and the results were HILARIOUS.

  109. @theantichick: “You should go find all the online communities that are made up not of teen girls, but of middle-aged women who have fallen in love with Edward and wrapped their real lives so much around these stories”

    Eeewwww!

  110. @TheSkepticalMale: Hmm, I heard it was similar but still different. SO CONFUSING WILL SMITH OMG.

  111. @marilove: I’m 34 and I adored Buffy, as did most of my friends. “The Body” is still the most emotional moving episode of a television I’ve ever seen, to the point where I have a lot of trouble trying to rewatch it.

    Then again, I’m also a huge Dr. Horrible and Firefly fan, so I can appreciate that others’ mileage may vary. :)

  112. @writerdd: They call themselves “Twimoms.” Some of them actually stalked Robert Pattinson (who played Edward) on the movie set.

  113. @newageamazon: Wow. I guess middle-aged men don’t have a monopoly on creepiness.

  114. @newageamazon:

    As far as I can tell, it’s all an abstinence metaphor. Biting = penetration = sex in just about ALL vampire lore.

    As I mentioned earlier, Cassidy in the Preacher comics is a notable exception, in that he likes sex with women, gets most of his blood from rare steak and only bites men when they get in his way (say, in a barfight). He’s a party animal with an inner scumbag and a tiny bit of decency inside of that. Apparently, Garth Ennis invented his character because he wanted to write a Western, and in a Western, the hero’s sidekick has to be a scoundrel. Likewise, the villain in such a story has to be larger-than-life and evil, which may explain why the heroes of Preacher are trying to track down God and bring Him to justice, Texas-style.

    @theantichick:

    I read an interview with Meyer where she said she deliberately wrote the Bella character to have no real personality or defining characteristics so that the reader would put herself (let’s be real, it’s not a book marketed to males) directly into the story *as* Bella.

    Ick. I guess the idea of using fiction to see the world through someone else’s eyes (and feel a lover’s touch on somebody else’s skin, etc.) is foreign to this particular market.

  115. @Blake Stacey: I expect to run into all kinds of people around here, but for some reason I never expected to run into someone who went to the same high school as me (assuming there’s only the one in Huntsville, AL).

  116. @FFFearlesss: I don’t know, but I hope one of them shows up to tell me what my niece and her mom will be into next.

  117. “True Blood” is awesome. I didn’t know that it was based off any novels, though – which ones? Names/Author?

    One thing I love about TB is how much thought appears to have been put in as far as the vampires go, the backstory, how vampirism works/is passed on, etc. Seems like every episode, a new nugget of information is revealed. And it all kinda makes sense! I have yet to notice any real contradictions.

    I’m waiting on the episode where we get introduced to the Louisiana Frankenstein. :P

  118. @phlebas:

    Small world FTW!

    Several summers ago, I was riding in a van from Boston to a beach party on Long Island, and the wife of the driver turned out to be a Grissom alum from ten years before me.

    “Hey, cool!”

    “Did you have Mr. Dravecky for US history?”

    “Yeah. Was he still there when you were there?”

    “Yeah. Did he choose the seating plan to line up all the attractive girls in the front row of desks when you were there?”

    “Yep. Some things don’t change, do they?”

  119. @TheSkepticalMale: As much as I like Whedon, I just never could get into Buffy. Hex, a two-season British series did it much better. The lesbian ghost roommate always leaves me in stitches. Unlike Buffy (or Charmed or Angel) there is no “make it didn’t happen” in this series. When people die they die. I think one of the reasons it only lasted two seasons was they ran out of characters… and buildings.

  120. @Masala Skeptic:

    I just think it sends a lot of really screwy messages about relationships to girls at an age where they’re impressionable and trying to figure out what it’s all about.

    I haven’t read the books or seen the movie, but I’ve read enough about them both to agree with you here. I recognize enough of the story’s theme to realize I would have totally been into this if I were still fourteen – and that’s not good. You need better examples at that point in your life.

    @TheSkepticalMale: I’m thinking not so much Hubert, but more like Matthew McConaughey in Dazed and Confused … “That’s what I love about these high school girls, man. I get older, they stay the same age.”

  121. @ScottW: They’re called “The Southern Vampire Mysteries,” and they’re written by Charlene Harris. The first book is ‘Dead Until Dark.’

  122. For all of you who will have to watch this particular unpalatable movie to make someone else happy I have suggestion.

    1/2 pint of jim beam fits nicely into your hip pocket, drunk straight from the bottle it helps make these stinkers bearable.

  123. No woman could possibly be as cool as Eowyn.

    … unless she was a Skepchick. ;)

  124. @TheSkepticalMale: Oh come on Omega Man with Charlton Heston was the best of the three.

    @marilove: My son has been watching True Blood and says its pretty good. The visual image of a bible thumper becoming a vampire is too good. I’ll have to watch them now.

  125. @James Fox: It really is pretty good. It can be pretty funny and visually it’s very interesting. And, since it is about VAMPIRES, it has actual blood and actual sex. LOTS of blood.

  126. @James Fox: I never saw ‘Omega Man’, but apparently they filmed it in east L.A. on the weekends and I heard that you can actually see people standing around in the background (inadvertently).

  127. @FFFearlesss:

    Where are all the Teen Skepchicks to comment on this?

    In school. :P

    Is aceing the AP Biology exam for the seventh time running really that exciting for you? Holy fuck.

    I have to admit it might be to me but that’s just the science nerd talking…

    I’ve been trying to plow my way through Twilight. It’s so tedious that I’ve begun replacing words like “eyes” with “face cancer” because I’m so sick of hearing about Edward’s eyes.

    Mebbe I write a post for Teen Skepchick?

  128. @Elles:

    Wow! Vampires with face cancer. Now that’s good horror.

  129. @TheSkepticalMale: This version was a real ground breaking movie and plays against all the more recent stereotypes of Heston. He has an African American love interest in the movie and the vampire Zombie un dead talk with Heston at night between Heston trying to pop them with his sniper rifle. (more like the book I’m told) It’s a bit dated but I think it’s a great comparison to the Will Smith movie.

    @marilove: Sounds like more father son bonding time!

  130. @Elles: “In school. :P” WINNER!

    And yes, please write up something for TS! Include your favorite passage with “face cancer” taking the place of “eyes.”

  131. @Rebecca: Not trying for the home school crowd???

    Now kids, today’s lesson plan is about how to keep pure while giving your vampire boyfriend a hand job… .

  132. @James Fox: Latex gloves?

  133. @Kimbo Jones: Kimbo Kimbo Kimbo, lets not jump ahead to the more advanced lessons.

  134. This was debated above. Apparently, ‘Twilight’ is certified as safe for LDS (“Mormon” to the rest of us) readers.

    http://blog.beliefnet.com/news/2008/11/mormon-mom-and-twilight-author.php
    (article discusses how ‘Twilight’ preserves Mormon values)

    For those of you with teenage daughters who want to see it, perhaps this could be a great talking-point – ‘Twilight’ as propaganda for Mormonism and everything is stands for (e.g., fear of sexuality, sexism, etc.)

  135. I’ve read the first book and been on page 173 on the second book for the past 5 months or so? ha. I did enjoy the first book, but I think I waited too long between them to care anymore. I did see the movie, but only because my friend invited me for a girls’ night. I liked the movie… because it had yummy Robert Pattinson in it, who I thought was attractive in Harry Potter. It followed the book pretty well too. I don’t know. I see what you’re saying and it makes since.
    To all teenage girls: Go read something with substance like Walden by Henry David Thoreau. haha. That’s what I’m doing.

  136. From the article linked by TheSkepticalMale:

    “The most obvious Mormon influences can be seen in the ways that Meyer has her teenage heroine stand up for marriage and, ultimately, motherhood,” says Jana Riess, author of “What Would Buffy Do: The Vampire Slayer as Spiritual Guide” and co-author of “Mormonism for Dummies.”

    Must. . . resist. . . obvious. . . callous. . . joke. . . .

    She doesn’t read vampire books or watch R-rated movies like “Interview with the Vampire.”

    What an odd way to deliberately curtail one’s life. I mean, R-rated movies? Accepting something like that as your criterion for self-censorship buys into the whole twisted mess of “values” set by the MPAA, in which (for example) sex is deemed more offensive than violence.

    None of the characters drink alcohol or indulge in profanity, but there is plenty of heavy breathing and sexual tension.

    Realism FAIL.

  137. I asked a student about it and she seems to be looking forward to seeing it “more than anything in the world”

    I don’t see what the who-har is all about, what another teen film adults think is silly and purile and doesn’t empower women. Big Deal. Teen films have always been about as deep as a teacup, and certainly don’t challenge stereotypes.

    Buffy was a “Strong” female lead, but she still had to be hot to win ratings. In teen movies nothing changes and never will because teenage boys make up the biggest single percentage not only of TEEN film audiences, but of ALL film audiences.

    If you want to get upset about poor female role models, read Jane Austin. Steam will come out of your ears

  138. Buffy is great!! As someone who has seen every single episode (most multiple times), I don’t think it gets bad towards the end so much as it grows up. This took me awhile to appreciate, but now I actually really like the later seasons. It starts out bubbly and fun and end up in a really dark place. In context, it’s less “whiny basket-case reveling in Spike’s abuse” than it is dealing with post-traumatic stress, and the complexity of their relationship that comes out over the course of the last three seasons is one of my favorite things in the series.

  139. @Blake Stacey: Secondary School for 100 years would be shit, but being a Fresher at Uni for 100 years (just one year “up”) is an altogether different proposition…

  140. I just read 136 comments so I throw this out. Ok, one, the whole Romeo and Juliet comparison: it’s tragedy. They are stupid and die and it’s tragedy. Twilight, they are stupid and undead and it’s a romance. The point in Romeo and Juliet was DON’T EVER DO THIS. The point is Twilight, is…OK, not really sure.

    I’m not allowed to read the book. My wife doesn’t want to hear me berate it for 45 minutes. Because she s enjoys them. She calls it “Porn for girls” . “It’s escapist, exploitive, teen angst, masturbatory fantasy. You like porn as much as the next guy, don’t judge me.” To which I have no response.

    I did see the trailer, (TV on at work, can’t shut it off) and it made me want to stab my eyes out.

    And finally, growing up fundie home schooled as I did, I watched a lot good, wholesome plop. My sister was a HUGE fan of the Anne of Green Gables movies. A friend of mine who is a Christian counselor actually believed in something he called “Anne of Green Gables syndrome” by which a young woman chose to pine away for the fictional Gilbert rather than engage in real relationships.

    Does anyone else see “Twilight” as Anne of Green Gables with vampires, or is it just me?

  141. Anne of Green Gables had more personality than Bella.

  142. Well, no matter how bad Twilight and the magical sparkling (or is it twinkling? I can’t remember) vampires are – I doubt it could even come close ot the sheer awfulness of Anita Blake.

  143. The beauty of Joss Whedon’s Buffy was that it took the Buffy character and showed her becoming stronger and more confident in herself as the series went on. It was a show that ended on the note that every girl was strong, and that every girl had the power to stand up for herself.

    Oh and Sorry Stephenie, but Joss already wrote about a brooding vampire with great hair. One could actually believe the romance between him and Buffy, because it had heart. All your “Zac Efron wannabe vampire” in Twilight has is a bunch of sexist silly dogma.
    ~

  144. @truthwalker: That’s the best she could come up with for lit-porn? Really? Bloody Harlequin novels would be a step up, I’d think.

  145. The funny thing about reading people talk about about bad literature is that it reminds me that I’m a writer who wants to write GOOD literature. So thanks everyone. ^_^

  146. Damn, that came across as really stuck-up of me… I’ll shut up now. :P

  147. Wow, Twilight sounds really awful. I mean I’m nowhere near the target demographic (not that I’m all that fond of most movies in my demographic either), but what a horrible message for teenage girls.

    The idea that you should lose yourself for love is terrible. I couldn’t love any woman I didn’t respect and I could have nothing but contempt for someone who suppressed themselves in order to appeal more to others.

  148. @russellsugden: I HATE JANE AUSTIN. I do not get the love for Jane Austin. UGH.

    Twilight is even worse, though, seeing asn it’s Mormom propoganda.

  149. @biochemgal: Spike was an abusive asshole. I can’t hang with that.

  150. @truthwalker: Erm. It’s porn without sex. It’s abstinence-porn.

    Ugh. I can’t help but think people who actually enjoy these awful books aren’t really reading and paying attention to them. Does no one think critically when they read anymore?!

  151. @biochemgal: There are things to appreciate in the later seasons, and I still watch them. But sometimes Buffy’s “woe is me, no one will understand” crap gets a bit tired. It’s the same “if we just said X everything would be fine, so I won’t so the plot can move forward” stuff that was already complained about on this thread (or was it another thread…they’re all running together for me now). And I can’t ever imagine forgiving someone for trying to rape me, no matter what the circumstances.

  152. I have not seen movie or read books (thank god), as there were other adults available to take my 12 year old daughter and a half dozen of her young female cousins to the movie. They all loved it and the adults thought it was o.k.

    Just a few comments. I tip my hat to the author for the book sales, the movie sales and spawning a 100+ thread on skepchick. I think she’ll suffer the criticisms for these accomplishments.

    Don’t waste your time with logic or literary/cinematography high standards when analyzing the appeal of a story to tweens and teens under the influence of raging/developing sexual hormones.

    I remember the huge appeal of Billy Jack as a young teen. It somehow seemed cool at the time, but that is one awful movie.

  153. @Kimbo Jones: “And I can’t ever imagine forgiving someone for trying to rape me, no matter what the circumstances.”

    Pretty fucking much. Sorry, but that’s not cool.

  154. A much better alternative for the YA reader:

    The late, great Octavia Butler’s FLEDGLING

    http://www.amazon.com/Fledgling-Novel-Octavia-E-Butler/dp/1583226907/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1228420737&sr=8-1

  155. @TrueSkeptic: There are plenty of young adult market books that deliver at least decent literature and a solid message about sex and gender roles and aren’t creepy/insulting. Besides, aren’t the teen years the worst time to be told: if you’re a girl, you can expect to be controlled by your man, oh and you are the sexual gatekeeper, with no real desires of your own, and guys it’s not stalking if your love is true!

  156. Such whining! And why the angst over S.M. being Mormon? Big deal. There are no vampires in Mormon doctrine and Twilight is not a proselyting tool ,so quit your whining and write your own books. See if you can sell as many copies as Ms. Meyer has. There’s nothing less attractive than wannabes whining over someone else’s success.

  157. @mswint: Oh there is something less attractive…assumptions as to the motivations and intentions of other people.

  158. Argumentum ad populum. One of my favorites. “How can it be bad? Millions of people loved it!” That works for keeping bad TV shows on the air, but it doesn’t make someone a good role model.

    If the best thing the books’ defenders can say about it is “it’s sold millions of copies,” then there’s not much else I can say except that “According to Jim” should sweep the Emmys every year, at least now that “Seventh Heaven” is off the air.

  159. By the same logic, we should all be eating feces becaue a million, billion flies can’t all be wrong.

  160. oK. Fair enough! But, just exactly how does a movie about a girl that doesn’t have sex ruin America. For that matter, the tone of the preponderance of comments seems to indicate that commitment and sacrifice – two qualities that are directly responsible for almost every great achievement in human history – are intrinsically bad? Or, am I just listening to the rantings angry man-haters? For the record, I didn’t particularly like the movie myself. However, my objections were geared more to the art of it all rather than the religion of the author or her particular take on morality and family. It seems the age of tolerance is recognized least by those who most loudly invoke it in defense of their own bigotry and prejudice.

  161. @mswint:

    I *think* the objections come more from Bella not having a personality of her own. The movie gives the very strong impression that sacrificing everything about (and, in this case, including) her own life for a boy she’s known for about two months is some kind of virtue. She has this strong man who’s rarely more than a few feet away to protect her, including when she’s in her bedroom. Watching her sleep, dreaming of (literally) consuming her.

    Perfectly healthy relationship for a 17-year-old right there. Certainly something all those 13-year-old fangirls should strive for.

    BUT AT LEAST THEY DON’T HAVE SEX.

    Also, the special effects sucked. If someone is going to leap a 20-foot gap to a tree trunk, can we at least get a little parabolic motion here? Christ almighty, ballistics is not a bad word, and I resent them teaching my favorite niece that it is.

  162. @mswint: It’s not just about her not having sex. It is mostly about her supressing everything about herself, not being allowed to make any decisions and needing a man to become her protector and saviour in every respect. Edward follows her constantly, watches her sleep and takes her away from her family and friends. And this is considered chivalrous and romantic as opposed to creepy and dysfunctional.

    The sex is one component of this. It’s not just that she can’t have sex with Edward – she can barely even make out with him. She can’t explore any of her natural sexuality because she’s with someone who can’t be close to her without wanting to ‘go all the way.’ In this case, ‘go all the way’ means sucking her blood in a murderous rage but what I worry that a teenage girl gets out of it is that men can’t control themselves so girls must hold themselves back. And if they don’t and they actually express an interest in sex, then men can’t be blamed for losing control.

  163. Ok.
    I read all the 163 comments.
    I’m 18, smart, and I consider myself to be pretty independent.

    Still, I really like the Twilight books that I got on Sinterklaas (Dutch tradition, I’ll spare you the details).

    I also really like the comments here. But I read these books to relax, and for me they are about some kind of teenage love that is about forgetting everything around you and focussing on the one you love.
    The books do give Bella quite a flat character, everything revolves around Edward. But on the other hand Edward feels exactly the same about Bella, it’s only that you read Bella’s side of the story, that makes her look empty and unpowerful.
    (Although I really like the part were she breaks her hand trying to punch her werewolf friend).

    Edward being overprotective has more to do with his strength; he could rip her apart in no time. He has to hold back; he doesn’t want to bring her in danger. She is reckless, and because she is like a drug to him, he has to give in eventually.

    I really see your point, but on the other hand it comes across as overreacting to me. I couldn’t imagine that I, at 13, would think that men are out of control when it comes to sex, due to this book, seen the fact that not all men are vampires that want to suck your deliciously smelling blood (but at the same time love you for who you are; so they must hold back).

    On the other hand it is smart to bring up the feminist discussion after seeing this movie and reading the books. They actually might respond enthusiastically and interested, maybe even more because you linked it to their ‘omg Edward’s so cute vampire’-book. Just don’t spoil the fun of reading books. Maybe they will read some quality books in the future.

    -Because yes, I feel like a dork for liking these books, but this is just enteraining and relaxing to me. Losing myself in another world and be sucked into a love that strong. By the way, there’s nothing sexual about the books, for me anyway. Thank God, just keep it light.
    If I wan’t to read some sex scenes I would read some Dutch literature. For some reason those books always contains lots of sex. And that I had to read for school.

    Ohw, and I love the way you make Edward look slightly twisted and psychopathic by trying to (over)protect her.

  164. @Dieke: Probably the most reasoned and well thoughout comment so far.
    Sure, there are flaws in the plot and character development but then, life seems to surround us with flawed reasoning and plotting. I learned long ago that things are not nearly so black and white as I once thought. I also learned that it is often not a matter of right or wrong but mearely Chocolate of Vanilla. Some like Vanilla, some like Chocolate neither is right or wrong, it is just a choice. As an author Stphanie Meyer had a story about a vampire that she wanted to tell. It was a simple story that was also a love story. It was not To Kill a Mockingbird or Grapes of Wrath but it was not meant to be. She found that the story moved along better without all of the complicating socio-moralistic mnusings and rantings that we are seeing on this thread. Whatever she did worked because millions of people love her book.
    I am presently writing a script for a TV project under development in Hollywood. I am faced with the formidable challenge of developing the characters while keeping the main story moving along. If I were writing a movie script I would have twice the pages to weave the characters and the plot more intricately but I only get 65 or so pages to tell a one hour story. I have to make concessions for the sake of the constraints put on me. Similarly, the movie script writer had to condense 400 pages of a beloved book to a 120 page shooting script. Same thing happened with Harry Potter. The bottom line is -it is tough telling a story. You absolutely cannot please everyone. If you can please several million (She has sold 30 million books with another 7.5 million being printed right now) you are doing pretty well. Let someone else write the book that makes the others happy. In the mean time, as a writer I appreciate all the work that authors do.
    By the way, by the middle of next week there will be a website just for people that want to give their advice on everything from how a book or a movie really should have ended to how to do anything else. It will be the ultimate advice website. It will be free and it is called Tweekt.com. Their motto is “tell us how you would do it. Like I say, middle of neext week. give it a look (don’t you think that at heart, all of us want to be Dr. Laura?)

  165. I am with Dieke. I am 43 years old, well educated (I have a minor in women’s studies) and I absolutely loved the first three books in the Twilight series. (The fourth, not so much.) It was escapism at its best, forbidden romance, following one’s heart and not one’s head… And without all of those messy human characteristics. (Apparently, vampires don’t perspire, or need to pee or brush their teeth.) And I can totally identify with the longing to have a protector in the wings ready to swoop down in an instant should you need help. Of course it’s escapist fantasy, and neither one of the lead characters is terribly well fleshed out (no pun intended). But I don’t think it’s quite as one sided as some of the comments would make it seem. In the beginning, Edward runs away from Bella because her blood is unbearably tempting, but then she is so interesting he has to get to know her. Physically, Edward keeps himself in check because he fears he could hurt Bella if he let down his guard, but that doesn’t stop her from pursuing her own agenda. SPOILER ALERT: In the end, her one “demand” is that they consummate their relationship while she is still human, before he turns her into a vampire. So I don’t see this as totally one sided. I think it’s more of a “The prince saved the princess and then she saved him right back again.”

    Btw, even though the good guys feed on wild animals, there are more garden variety vampires who still drink human blood. And @Joshua, it was actually Bella’s father who disabled her car.

    Incidentally, I loved both Buffy and True Blood.

  166. ok,
    i am 14 years of age.
    and a group of my mates have read this book.
    they absoloutley love it and invited me to come and see the movie with them.

    now, i registered to this whole skepchick thing just to tell you that it’s a bloody great movie and that it’s beautiful.

    everyone i have asked loved it.
    so it’s a kids movie. we don’t need to worry about the whole christian and sexist shit cause it doesn’t mean a thing.

    so if you’re gonna go cry it’s not gonna get rid of the admiration from all us kids in the world.

    good luck.

  167. if you read midnight sun then u would obviously understand that edward doesn’t just like bella for her body and vice-versa for bella. the books are actually fantastic. dont get into all of this stuff about like “religion” and “sexist” because the twilight series is something that we can all escape to since it is a book about an ordinary girl who has something spectacular happen to her and everyone wants that to happen them. im not saying that the movie was great but i could have been done a little better. and believing that maybe an edward is out there for us makes us all feel a little better. so dont criticize unless you know first hand off what the twilight series is all about

  168. umm, okay. i have set up an account so i could say that like, three quarters of this review is crap. Edward unequivocally fell in love with all of her! i totally agree with videogamerx! and plus Bella didn’t just walk away from charlie when he was handing the pepper spray. she took it! and she had it when she was about to get raped, and she was about to get it when; “VROOOOOOOM!” Edward rolls in.
    AND, you can see that when, in biology, Edward like, sorta hates her! unless you didn’t even see his face when she sat down beside him. So, ya, this review is crap.

  169. oh, and by the way, she thinks for herself! Remember when, in the cafeteria, Jessica is like, “don’t waste your time.” oh, wait! she does! she falls in love with edward! That’s independant thinking! ya!

  170. I thought the books were well written, I finished the first 2 books within 8 hours each. I am not a teenager raging with hormones and I still LOVE the series. I liked the movie, but the book was SO much better, if I had seen the movie first I probably would’ve been more disappointed than I was with it after reading the book. In the book you know it’s more than a few days before she realizes she’s in love with Edward. They scrunched everything together to make the movie short, but I think they did it too much. They could’ve gone with an almost 3 hour movie to tell the store MUCH better than they did. I recommend reading the books before you decide you hate it based on the movie.

  171. I am surprised by all the negative comment. I’m 30 I liked the movie. I liked the books. They aren’t one of the best written series I’ve had the pleasure of reading but I see no harm in them. They are no worse than Romeo and what’s her name……I’m sure you’ve all heard of this story (wink). It’s the one where common sense was suicide instead of using your brain…it’s a classic. It’s just one story in a million that you have read growing up. These stories, good and bad, are one person’s point of view. You know the story and yet you grew up with sense enough to find love (realistic love) that you are happy with?!? Give your niece a little credit and watch her surprise you. She’s a kid right now. It is not fair to bad mouth the “twilight” generation for being passionate about what they like (this week). We’ve all been there…the “to die for come what may” love…Come on…it’s really not that serious. It’s entertainment people. It is A phase…the craze of the season.

  172. I am not believing some of the things I am reading on this page. I am the mother of 3 young ladies and I hope they read these books and get from them the same understanding I got. Bella is the hero!!! In the end, without her, it would have been the end!!! She is strong, intelligent, stubborn, clever, I could go on and on. The movie may not live up to the books, but before you judge the characters, you should take the time to read the books, and get to know the characters. Each has and or finds their own strengths and uses them in their love for one another and the love of their families. Every character in these books are essential links to a chain of love and devotion to their family and friends. I feel Stephanie Meyer did an excellent job in creating and developing these characters. I love the fact that they don’t have pre-marital sex, that they allow themselves to grow and become who they are and are happy with who they become. Love is a beautiful thing, some of us have just become so bitter, we can’t see it. I hope the series continues after Midnight Sun!!!!

  173. @crhill1974: I agree. I am more than happy to let my daughter read the books, I hope it sparks a love of reading for her. She’s one that reads because she HAS to, not because she enjoys it. I am also happy that I don’t have to censor it as there is no sex in it. I saw the movie with my daughter and explained everything to her (I was shocked at the amount of questions she had) so she could understand more about the story. I am also glad that Isabella doesn’t have much of a personality and it allows readers to put themselves into the story (it’s difficult for some young readers to do). I put myself into the story too, and the books just made me happy. I bought myself the set for Christmas and am finding it difficult to wait to open them so I can start reading Eclipse.

  174. Wow, ok I am seriously amazed that I am still getting comments on this post :)

    As I said in my original post – I have not read the books. In my experience, movies rarely live up to the books they are based on so it doesn’t surprise me that folks are saying the books are a lot better.

    That being said, my review was based on the movie and I stand by my commentary. It really bothers me when people say ‘it’s just something kids read’ or ‘it’s a phase.’ While that may be true, it’s really not fair to marginalize the impact of a book just because it’s something kids are reading. Quite the opposite – the books I read in my formative years certainly shaped my world view in a lot of ways.

    Also, as I’ve said before – I don’t think a single book or series of books are going to change a young person’s mind one way or the other. What is important, in my opinion, is the discussion around it. Several commenters here are saying that Bella is strong and intelligent. That’s great but I don’t see it in the movie. Maybe that’s a failing of the director or the script. But I’m also willing to bet that every teen who saw the movie did NOT read the books and got their story from the movie alone. So I think the review can stand, based on just the movie.

    The comparisons to Romeo and Juliet are interesting. I’m a huge Shakespeare fan and I hated R&J. But regardless, as others on this comment thread have pointed out, Romeo and Juliet is a story of warning. Don’t let foolish infatuation and miscommunication ruin your life. The difference with Twilight is that the foolish infatuation is considered right and good and, more worrisome – what love is really all about…

  175. You know, it’s been almost 20 days since this was posted. And since then, those of us who dislike the books and are dismissive of them have moved on, while there’s been a sudden outpouring of those who are more than ready to accuse the rest of us of being bitter, angry and jealous because we feel a series of books is dismissive towards women.

    I just find this fact interesting. That’s all.

  176. @newageamazon: I actually just joined the site today…found it while looking for pictures, and frankly didn’t even pay attention to the dates the other posts were written.

  177. @sweetwhysper: Which is valid, but at the same time, my experience with a lot of rather rabid Twilight fans is that they will hunt down articles and columns from people who dislike it or have similar theories about it being reflective of society’s ideals about love, marriage and a woman’s role, link them on pro-Twilight sites, and encourage each other to hunt down and ‘educate’ the author on the glorious joy of the books.

    I have been called everything from stupid to a man-hating feminazi dyke for my opinion on the book. Mostly by people who found a rant I’d written five months after the fact and attacked me personally for my feelings on the book and my literary dissection of it.

  178. @newageamazon: Ahh. I hate it when people attack because their opinion has to be right and if you don’t agree you’ve got to be wrong. IMHO there is no right or wrong when it comes to opinions and everyone is entitled to one. Having a conversation about why each person feels that way is ok, but attacking someone because they don’t like a book? Give me a break! While the books are not the best I have read, I do love them. lol I have to be honest here too, these are the first bad reviews I have seen on this movie, and the books.

  179. To add a behind-the-scenes perspective, we get a number of comments on this post that are horribly misspelled, bitter, barely legible rants attacking Masala_Skeptic for the post. They seem to think this is YouTube . . . sadly for them, it’s not, and we require a basic level of literacy to post here. Frankly if it weren’t for Teen Skepchick I’d be seriously worried about the future of humanity.

  180. @jennabear:
    YA fiction that has magical stuff happen to ordinary people is okay. YA fiction about ordinary kids who make themselves extraordinary by developing their skills through a lot of hard work is better. “Little Brother” by Cory Doctorow is an example of the latter, a book filled with smart, savvy, strong, female (and male) characters who don’t let other people make their decisions or wait for things to happen to them. The heroes in “Little Brother” happen to the world.

    It’s a perfect gift for the teen skeptic in your life.

  181. @sethmanapio: How about A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle? It has magical stuff happening to an extraordinary young woman who uses her brains and courage to save the day? It’s a wonderful book that was published all the way back in 1962 with a strong female protagonist… What’s not to like?

  182. @jerilyns: How about A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L’Engle?

    —————–

    Wrinkle in time (all three books) have three strikes against them:
    1. The central plot is that God is fighting the Devil, and all the characters are chosen to be part of a cosmic plan.
    2. The main characters are science geeks who never, ever use science
    3. A flying Unicorn.

    By contrast, the Harper Hall series has no magic, no cosmic consequences, no titanic struggles, no special power. The main character uses her hard work and determination to master a skill that is forbidden to girls and fights for her place in society.

    Granted, there are telepathic, teleporting, flying lizards. But at least they aren’t MAGIC telepathic, teleporting flying lizards on a cosmic quest to save the world.

  183. @sethmanapio: Interesting. I don’t have a problem at all with fiction relating to religion/God or fantasy. If it’s a good story, I have no probelm with magic or determinism or any of that stuff. That’s what fiction is for, in my opinion.

    I think there’s an Afternoon Inquisition in here somewhere :)

  184. Also, because of this, I am getting a billion sponsored Twilight ads in my Gmail. Thanks a whole lot, Bella! :)

  185. Ok so you are disappointed because all this young teen girls “think” this is a great movie…but it’s not because Bella isn’t able to relieve the sexual frustration that exist between her and Edward. You should do yourself a favor and read the book…there is more emotion and understanding behind the words. And sex should be the last thing on your mind when it comes to evaluating a movie with 13yr old girls in mind.

  186. I love the Twilight movie it is a great20 teenage love story. Now i don’t agree on the view up above, because it is vampire movie not a normal love story. Of course he is going to fall in love with her because of the way she smell they considered as animals not humans, they are immortal! Damn enough with a girl should stand up with herself and all of that mess. She is in love and she has an opportunity to love him forever by living for ever. IT IS A LOVE STORY!! VAMPIRES!!

  187. @Masala Skeptic: I don’t have a problem at all with fiction relating to religion/God or fantasy.

    ——————

    I don’t either, really. But I tend to think that “you are be the chosen one” is a bad message in YA fiction. It downplays the importance of building a skill set and learning about the world.

    In “A Wind in the Door” Meg makes everything okay by loving her enemies. That doesn’t take skill, or practice. And she is told what she should do. I guess my main problem is that the people in those books build skills and knowledge but they don’t use those skills and knowledge to solve the conflicts in the book.

  188. @deocca: Of course he is going to fall in love with her because of the way she smell they considered as animals not humans, they are immortal!

    ——————-

    So it’s basically a love story between a person and a goat? Ewww.

  189. @sethmanapio: Maybe it’s not so much a message of being the “chosen one”, but one to let all the YA readers out there that everyone has a soul mate. The fact that he’s a vampire, to me, is a moot point. The story shows that love has no bounds, and when you love someone as deeply as they love each other, you will do whatever you can to protect them and show you love them. Would all of you be judging the movie the same way if she chose Jacob? Probably not because it doesn’t come out until New Moon that he’s a werewolf. It’s fiction, leave it at that. OH and just one more thing…have you never walked up to another human being and just LOVED the way they smell? I have to say part of the attraction I have to my husband is his smell, to me it’s intoxicating, and I am NOT a vampire.

  190. @sweetwhysper: Actually, I’ve read all four books and spent most of my time cheering for Bella to tell both of her suitors to go away and come back when they could show her some respect.

    It has nothing to do with Edward being a vampire and Jacob being a werewolf. It has to do with the way Edward treats her and acts towards her, which is pretty much a step by step guide on how to be a creepy, emotionally abusive SOB who gets away with it because he’s pretty and says “I’m sorry, I won’t do it again.” And if he has to keep saying “I’m sorry, I won’t do it again?” He’s not sorry, and he WILL do it again.

  191. @risingdawn1982:

    And sex should be the last thing on your mind when it comes to evaluating a movie with 13yr old girls in mind.

    Yeah, we should never talk about sex to young girls who are just entering puberty and having all these strange feelings about sex and their sexuality. Definitely a bad idea. Ignore it. Make it taboo. Yeah, that’ll work great.

  192. @Masala Skeptic: Maybe risingdawn1982 meant you shouldn’t be upset that both the book and the movie lacked sex…not that you shouldn’t discuss it with your teenage daughters. You’d think people would be releived that they don’t have to worry about their teenagers watching a teenage movie and seeing a lot of sex!

  193. @sweetwhysper: Fair enough, but the movie at least did contain sex. Not the act, but the discussion of how he could not have sex with her because he would ‘lose control’ and kill her. As I said in the original review, I have a problem with him having the control over her sexuality in the relationship. And her having to supress her sexuality because of him.

  194. @Masala Skeptic: actually, he never said he couldn’t have sex with her. He told her “I can’t ever lose control with you” and the reason he can’t lose control is because though she wants him to turn her, he refuses.

  195. @Masala Skeptic: Actually, in the books, HE has to suppress her sexuality for her. She comes to him seeking sex and he has to keep telling her “no.”

    IE: women are insatiable sexually and it’s up to the pure, glittering man to keep them from doing the “dangerous” thing: having sex before marriage.

  196. @sweetwhysper: In response to the “soul mate” thing: how do you feel about the fact that all of the “soul mates” portrayed are in heterosexual relationships? Or the fact that it’s portrayed as perfectly fine for an adult male to find his soulmate in a three-year-old or even a newborn child?

  197. @sweetwhysper:

    Oh, I think that scene in her bedroom where they’re smooching, and she starts to recline and he leaps back into the opposite wall is a pretty blatant clue that the next conversation is about sex.

    I am suddenly reminded of one of my favorite short stories: “Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex” about why Superman can never actually have sex with a human woman.

  198. @newageamazon: I don’t care if they are same sex or hetero sexual relationships. Just as I wouldn’t care if she was Latina and he was Asian, or any other ethnicity for that matter. Love is love, soul mates are soul mates. As far as the adult finding his soulmate in a child is repulsive, and (though I have only read the first 2 books, I know it’s there in a later book) I will most likely be one of the loudest voices screaming pedophile!

  199. @phlebas: and I didn’t say it wasn’t implied, I said it wasn’t said. My daughter missed it completely, thought he was talking about kissing. Do you think the children catch onto all of the adult undertones in disney movies? or any for that matter? If you don’t know what I am referring to, then you need to watch Toy Story.

  200. @Masala Skeptic: I have a problem with the freaking pedophile having sex with someone who is something like 100 years younger. I’m 36 so that would be like me picking up an infant and saying we were soulmats.

  201. @sweetwhysper: Yes, but my point is that all of the pure, perfect, soulmate relationships portrayed in the book are heterosexual. There’s and underlying message that the only way you can have pure, true love is if it is between a man and a woman. Even if the man is an adult and the girl is a child. That is apparently more common and accepted in the books than the idea of two men or two women.

    Granted, we don’t know if two men or two women finding out they are soul mates is okay or not, because Meyer does not broach it. But since she DOES broach pedophilia it seems to me she could have addressed homosexuality.

  202. @phlebas: Larry Niven!

  203. @newageamazon: I have to agree that she should have addressed homosexuality. It actually would’ve been refreshing to have someone with enough guts to approach it and put it on the big screen.

  204. @sweetwhysper:

    I don’t think every teenager would catch that it was about sex. I don’t think every adult did. My 13-year-old niece picked up on it so fast that I thought it was subtitled. Kids and YAs are way more hip than many of them give us credit for.

    I think that entire scene was problematic anyway. He sneaks into her house to watch her sleep night after night, and this is romance?

  205. @sweetwhysper: See, I have a feeling her not addressing homosexuality addresses it perfectly. Meyer is a devout Mormon, and a lot of that bled through into her work. Especially the feelings on sex and sexuality.

    If she’d addressed homosexuality, I’d bet dollars to donuts it would have been addressed as wrong. Despite a hilarious quote from Breaking Dawn where Edward mentions he ‘had to bite pillows’ to keep from turning Bella during sex.

  206. @phlebas: I truly only caught it was sex because she pulled him onto the bed, that is not mentioned in the book.
    @newageamazon: of course it would’ve been addressed as wrong, because she’s mormon. I haven’t read breaking dawn yet, but I am sure I will get a chuckle out of picturing Edward biting pillows lol

  207. @sweetwhysper: Maybe it’s not so much a message of being the “chosen one”, but one to let all the YA readers out there that everyone has a soul mate.

    —————-

    Another lousy message. You don’t have a “soul mate”. You have real, three-dimensional, complex relationships with other human beings. Love does not conquer all. You break up with people. You lose friends. I don’t think that lying to teenagers about the reality of relationships isn’t a positive message.

  208. @sethmanapio: isn’t a positive message.

    IS a positive message. Oy. Typo.

  209. Yall some funny asses! Um, if you read some of the stories of the twilight series it is a love story and not real life story.FICTION!! But it is a cute love story and everyone loves vampires and werewolves mixing in with the humans. Well i do! Damn!! Be opened minded and live a little have make believe in your life stop being up tight, loosen up.

  210. @sethmanapio: The reality of the relationship between Bella and Edward is, it’s not easy, but worth it if you love someone as much as they love each other. That’s a pretty real message for a fictional story if you ask me.

  211. @sweetwhysper: The message is also about surrendering everything you ever wanted for a guy you just met, allowing the men in your life make all of your choices for you, and that the only thing that matters in life should be love, beyond logic, reason or your own personal safety.

  212. Geez, Maria! Why don’t you just stop it with the concern for the healthy mental development of young women already? Srsly.

  213. @sethmanapio Re: A Wrinkle in Time
    It’s been a VERY long time since I read the series (in fact, when I read it, it was still a trilogy!), but what stayed with me was the strong female protagonist. I didn’t remember the religious themes (or maybe they never really registered as more than good vs. evil; I was a skepchick even way back then…) Also that the good guys were nerdy scientists (their use of science notwithstanding). And I don’t have any problems with flying unicorns.

    Re: soul mates — I am totally in agreement with you. I think it is a very bad idea to reinforce the stereotype that there is a single perfect significant other out there for everyone. When I was in collage (i.e. old enough to know better), I was completely traumatized when a relationship with someone that I just “knew” was supposed to be my soul mate didn’t work out. In the Twilight series, it’s unclear to me (at least up until the 4th book) whether or not Jacob and Bella could have had a happy life together had she made a different choice.

    In terms of real relationships, part of the fun of romantic comedies is the lack of human characteristics — No halitosis! No acne! No rashes! You get the point…

  214. @deocca:

    You mean, loosen up to the point where we don’t get bent out of shape over a three-week old movie review we disagree with? :)

  215. @Jen: Sorry sorry. Young women everywhere, please continue to submit to your male dominating figures and forget I said anything. Who let you girls read anyway?? Get back in the kitchen!

  216. @Masala Skeptic: Come on, they’re not all that impressed with conversation
    True gentlemen avoid it when they can
    But they dote and swoon and fawn
    On a lady who’s withdrawn
    It’s she who holds her tongue who get’s a man

  217. Ok so here is the deal and yes i am going to argue and yes there could be spoilers.
    I have seen the movie, which however, are no comparison to the books. The books are much better in many ways than one. But we are arguing about the movie here. In the movie we do know things about Bella, but you have to watch it to know them. We know she is in someway shy because of the way she acts to having a feature in the paper being mentioned, something that someone with no shyness would be willing to do. We also find that she doesn’t mind being alone, and is not great with expressing feelings, same as her dad. So that is no a good thing to say knowing that throughout the movie you get to know Bella very well.

    Edward, however, does show more interest to Bella than only physical. He actually doesn’t show much physical interest at all. Since when was a guy being protective a bad thing, if they loved you? On my account never. Edward is always making sure Bella is happy, like when he saves her, for the second time i may add (another point for him), and insisted she eat something. And okay what is wrong with someone watching you sleep? Not really all that much considering the fact that if you do ever move in with the person you love, having them watch you sleep is inevitable.
    And please someone tell me when not sleeping or having sex together before marriage is a horrible thing. I don’t see it. Isn’t it better to get to know a person before you go that deep into a relationship? Most people would agree but most wouldn’t. Evenly split. Most parents would be happy that their 17 year old children are still virgins. And what is wrong with a virgin vampire? So he never found anyone he loved as much as Bella, and doesn’t want to her when he does, why is that so bad? Looking out for her again, yet another point for him.
    I would think, also that the fact that Bella wants to be with Edward forever, so she decides to commit to becoming an immortal vampire, would be a very romantic, loving thing rather that a wrong decision.
    And the fact that some of us teens get the impression that this is love, is not wrong. Think of it as if you were a mother. Would you want your daughter to go out and become a slut, or stay a virgin until after marriage even with a vampire or anyone that would be considered ”dangerous”? Now answer that.
    So i find in conclusion, although this opinion very voiced and though through, to be very shallow. It seems as though this person did not look at the facts well enough. This movie is not a well written, even though a poor interpretation of the book, and good movie. Better than most ooey gooey teen romances that are playing most of the time now a days. Think through what i said and respond. I would understand if you felt the same but looking at this through the eyes of someone else i couldn’t see how i would have gave you any reason to still hate this movie.

    -Caitlyn

  218. @TwilightxSagaxLover:
    Since when was a guy being protective a bad thing, if they loved you?
    When he is so protective that he doesn’t allow you to make your own choices or mistakes and doesn’t allow you to grow as a person. When it means you don’t get to live your life because he is too busy deciding which experiences you should and shouldn’t have.

    Think of it as if you were a mother. Would you want your daughter to go out and become a slut, or stay a virgin until after marriage even with a vampire or anyone that would be considered ”dangerous”?Now answer that.

    I would expect my daughter to have been raised to realize there is a middle ground between “virgin” and “slut.”

    I would understand if you felt the same but looking at this through the eyes of someone else i couldn’t see how i would have gave you any reason to still hate this movie.

    Because many of us have seen these same arguments again and again, and yet still are more concerned with the fact that many girls who defend Edward’s actions towards Bella use the same language women in real life use to defend men who have abused them: “You don’t know what he’s really like!” “It’s okay because he loves her!”

  219. TwilightxSagaxLover (Caitlin)
    I very much agree with you.
    Everyone listen to Caitlin she knows what she’s talking about ;)

  220. @sweetwhysper: That’s a pretty real message for a fictional story if you ask me.

    —————–

    Maybe. Who knows… it depends on how its done. Sometimes love is worth it. Sometimes it isn’t. But young people read fiction in order to learn about the world…

    Okay, look… take “Little Brother”. The characters fall in love because they are part of the same cause. They don’t join the cause for love. If a character only wants to change species for love, that’s a shit reason to do it. They should want to change species for themselves, regardless of whether they keep the current lover. That’s the point.

  221. @TwilightxSagaxLover: And okay what is wrong with someone watching you sleep? Not really all that much considering the fact that if you do ever move in with the person you love, having them watch you sleep is inevitable.

    —————

    No. It really isn’t.

    I admit, occasionally, I used to watch the highlander sleep. Especially when he was just born. That wasn’t creepy. He is my main reason for living, and I felt that by watching him, I would keep him alive.

    On the other hand, I’ve lived with 4 women in the last 2 decades, and I never watched any of them sleep. I saw them sleep, but I never just sat there and watched them. That would be frickin’ creepy.

    If someone has strong sexual or culinary desire for another person, watching them sleep is creepy. If they have overpowering protective feelings, then its okay. If they have overpowering protective feelings and strong sexual or culinary desire, then the relationship itself is creepy like pedophilia.

  222. @jerilyns: It’s been a VERY long time since I read the series (in fact, when I read it, it was still a trilogy!), but what stayed with me was the strong female protagonist.

    ————–

    I reread. A lot. I’ve read most of the books I like 8 or 9 times, some more. And I loved those books as a kid. I just think there are some problematic themes.

  223. its a friggin movie get over it. there is going to be two sides to everything. i also want to add ( since im on the pro twilight side) edward cant sleep so obviously if he it kills him to stay away from bella for long periods of times he is going to watch her sleep but not in a creepy way.

  224. @jennabear: There is no such thing as “watch(ing) her sleep but not in a creepy way.” If he can’t sleep he should take up knitting.

  225. @jennabear: You know, if I was immortal and didn’t need sleep, there are a lot of positive things I would consider doing. Night school, maybe? Get a degree, cure cancer, something! But noooo.. Edward has to brood and watch the 15 year old sleep before he goes to high school for the 200th time or whatever…

  226. @sethmanapio:

    If someone has strong sexual or culinary desire for another person, watching them sleep is creepy.

    COTW for the culinary desire. I can’t stop giggling.

  227. @phlebas: Yeah, geez, you and Masala are SO uptight. I don’t think it’s possible for you to be any more tightly wound. Why don’t you light some lavendar aromatherapy candles and do some yoga, sheesh.

  228. @Masala Skeptic: well actually he does have a medical degree but he is not strong enough to actually practice on blood like carlisle can and as for when he watches her sleep, he doesnt actually like stand there and like watch her for hours. they like talk at night later in the books and when shes sleeping he reads some of her books and stuff. i think personally that its sweet of him to sleep with her because i know i would love it if a boy loved me so much that while he could be doing other things, pointed out numerous times by other people, he wants to stay with her which is what every teenager wants. and seriously this is just a book and everyone defending twilight is not from some friggin cult site. were not that obsessive.

  229. Damn… I think this A.I. is a vampire…the damn thing just won’t die! Where is my stake of electronic holly?!

    Besides, there aren’t two sides to every story. There’s at least three, because we live in a three-dimensional world!

  230. Sometimes I watch my cat sleeping, but as she’s 19 years old, mostly I’m watching to make sure she’s still breathing…

  231. @QuestionAuthority: This wasn’t even an AI! :) It was a regular post!

  232. @spyderkl: I’ve met Tanya Huff. She used to work in a book shop I went to a lot. Of course I only realized in retrospect that Tanya-who-works-at-the-book-shop was Tanya Huff. Someone in that shop recommended “Blood Price” to me and rang up a signed copy. My memory’s a bit fuzzy on the details but I’m pretty sure it was Tanya herself.

    There was also a guy named Rob who worked in the same shop a couple years earlier. Turns out that was Robert J Sawyer.

    There must be something in the drinking water at that book shop. Half a dozen authors have worked there at some point. If I’d known that at the time, I would’ve tried to get a job there. :-)

  233. “Stephenie Meyer, the author, is being hailed as the next J.K. Rowling. ”

    I doubt any literary experts would be able to recognize the next J. K. Rowling. They certainly had trouble recognizing the first one.

  234. @Masala Skeptic: Actually Bella is 17 almost 18 during Twilight and turns 18 at the beginning of New Moon. She, for all intents and purposes, is capable of making the decisions of an adult. If she were 13 or 14 I would have an issue, but not 17.

  235. @sweetwhysper:

    Edward is sneaking into her house and watching her sleep. I have a problem with that whether she’s 14, 18, or 30.

  236. @ sethmanapio: the “culinary desire” is funny, but it’s also dead-on. If Edward wanted to eat her flesh as well as drink her blood, would we even be discussing this book/movie? It would be in the “so-debauched-we-can’t-sell-this-at-Borders-must-self-publish” book section of some skanky red-light bookseller, it would never have made it on the shelves of normal bookstores. The fact that his love and his hunger are intertwined ought to give anyone pause.

    Then you add in that he’s 200 years old or whatever (100? I forget. I did read the first book but tried to wash my brain of it immediately after), and she’s 17, does not help. The fact that he controls her every move does not help. The fact that he’s perfect and she’s a total helpless git does not help.

    And I have to read a zillion status updates from Facebook mates googooing and gagaing over this vapid stinky pile of literary poo.

    Yeah, I’m not a fan.

  237. I’m not going to lie… I was absolutely obsessed over Twilight. Twilight was an amazing series and I think Stephenie Meyer ia an amazing author. This series was the only series, other than Sisterhood of the Travelling Pants, that I have read and couldnt put the book down. I have a lot of friends who have or are still reading the books as well. I just wanted to remind you all that it is a teenaged series just like most of you have all noted in your posts. Therefore why would the author put sex scenes in the books or movies? Hmmmm I wonder…. Also the books and the movies have been very popular these days and it’s the “new thing” so to say. So if you do not like the way the movies and or books (and they are just fictional books and movies, aren’t they?) then why are you letting your children watch or read them? Anyway just thought I would put my two cents in :) Merry Christmas!

  238. Ah!! This has certainly made me laugh, reading through all these comments. I’ve got to say, I think most of us could get within a five year gap on the age group of most of the posters. That said….

    I first saw the movie. It was a decent enough movie, being that I took it only for fiction. Some things were certainly out of place, and that inspired me to read the books.

    I actually started with the last book; My 15 year old niece has requested the books for Christmas and in my impatience to find if Bella is ever turned, I came across a very disturbing post about the final book in the series and was extremely worried to have her read it without knowing for myself first if it was as graphic as the poster made it out to be. Well, it’s not. Graphic enough for surely any adult to understand, but just as another poster had mentioned, tinted like a Disney movie so that only someone with their mind in the gutter in the first place can truly understand all the undercurrents. After I had assured myself I wasn’t allowing my niece to read pure pornography, I stopped short of the end to not completely ruin it for myself and went back to the first.

    After reading through the first book and then re-watching the movie, I can see where so many people are up in arms about how odd and sexist and masochistic the movie really seems. Obviously if one were to fall in love in a two week span it would be deemed lust instead. This is not the case in the book. As a few others have said, he really does try to avoid her. You find out in the book that he actually leaves town for Alaska to completely rid himself of the temptation of her, but he misses his family too much to stay away. She doesn’t just swoon over him in a matter of minutes. For the purpose of making a big screen movie flow effortlessly, they leave out many vital pieces of the story.

    I’m not going to ramble on about this all day because everyone is surely entitled to their opinion, and I absolutely understand the urge behind keeping very young girls from it. I really don’t plan to make this available to my own girls until they are least 15. I think 13 is just a little too young to understand the fiction of which this story is born.

    However, bear in mind with the sexual predator theories, that while the boy surely demands the life experience of a 100 year old creature, he is forever stuck as a 17 year old boy. Carlisle, his “father”, tried to find him a mate in Rosalie, which worked as nothing more than a sibling rivalry. She found her own mate, as Edward does now. One hundred years and he’s never found someone to love until he meets Bella… I really is romantic. Also, he was a 17 year old boy in the early 1900s dying of the Spanish Influenza. Do you really think he found much time to have sex? I think it’s very important to the base of the story that they either both had or hadn’t lost their virginity, though which I don’t think matters as much, so long as they were evenly matched.

    Just a few pieces that made me laugh: Edward isn’t the one that disabled Bella’s car, it was her Dad, Charlie; She fully plans to defend herself against the attackers until Edward shows up; When you have a sister than can see the future and can read minds yourself, your chances of being caught speeding are slim to none.

    Also, Bella in the book is the clumsiest, most frail human in the world. She faints a good four times throughout the first book, scrapes herself up numerous times, and really leaves Edward to believe that she isn’t much capable of saving herself. The times that she does give in to him are really for her own good anyway. Like, trying to drive right after fainting? She lets him take control because of her frail personality as opposed to him forcing her. She has just as much control over him as he does her.

    Sorry to go on and on, but it’s because of some of the assumptions that I’ve read not just here that I think many people are blowing things out of proportion. I honestly do recommend at least hitting the high points of the fourth book if you’re concerned about it in relation to a teenager reading it. I think it warrants some discussion when it’s over. If you’d like more specifics, as in chapters to browse and exact themes, email me and I’ll let you know why I don’t feel it’s suitable for younger girls.

    [email protected]

  239. Okay. I just wanted to say that i am a 13 year old girl who has read the books and made a comment on this post already. But after reading more posts, i found some people hate these books only because of the sex content that it puts in the minds of teenagers. So as a teen myself, who goes to school and does things like hang at the mall, on a normal basis, i think it is safe to say, if you are worried about your young teens reading a book or seeing a movie with too much sex content, then i would say then you shouldn’t them go to school or leave the house or watch tv ever again. Think about it. During school there are kissing or some other form of PDA all over campus. Also, while watching tv or listening to music, you see and learn more then this book would teach you. Take my advice under consideration.

  240. I’m not sure it’s the sex itself that bothers, although I can’t speak for others. It seems to me that it’s the circumstances of the relationship between Edward and Bella and how, in the movie anyway, it seems that he is emotionally abusive towards her — or at least controlling.

  241. maybe. the movie is not as genuine as the books are, so i can not actually speak for those who favor the movie. I can, however, say that he is only “controlling” if you must call it that, because he cares about her so much. He tries to take her away when she is being tracked because he cares that she doesn’t get killed. There is not much else i could find that would mark him as controlling except for taking her away, and it wasn’t like she wanted to stay, she went willingly.

  242. ok ur all complaining because he is emotionally abusive towards her? that is so stupid. so were going to read the books and then we’re going to be in these abusive relationships? were not that stupid. we all know hat happens and were not going to get involved with an abuser. the books are just a fun read for us. dont turn these books into a huge debate about sexuality and abusivenss.

  243. There is no big deal in the movie with the whole bit of Edward coming into her bedroom and watching her sleep.
    He likes her, immensly and in the dead of night, there wouldn’t be alot to do anyway.

    It’s not creepy – He says he likes watching her sleep cause he says he thinks it’s fascinating! Not cause he’s thinking up ways to fuckin rape her or some stupid shit like you guys are all seeming to making it out like.
    Get over it.

  244. Ok. I didn’t want it to come to this but I have to say it. I am immensely sick of the reasoning “he’s only doing X because he loves her/cares about her so much”. I’m sorry, but that’s garbage. Also, just because a woman goes along with something doesn’t mean that’s what she necessarily wanted to do or that’s what was best for her. People think they’re not going to get involved with an abuser until they do. It happens so gradually you don’t even notice. Where the heck to I get off saying this? I was once in an emotionally abusive relationship. It’s the hardest to pick out, especially when you’re a teenager (and I don’t mean this to be condescending AT ALL but…) because there is simply not enough experience there to tell the difference. I was 13-14. My boyfriend was very jealous, very emotionally controlling, and very manipulative. I thought he loved me and I loved him more than anything. I would do anything to make him happy and for him to realize that I loved him, even if it made me miserable because that’s what I thought relationships were — give and take. Except there was no give on his part, there was only take. Sometimes would be good times and you’d almost forget the times he made you feel like a bag of crap, but then you eventually come to the realization that you’re nothing but miserable with him. Your friends get worried about you. You deny it at first “he’s just worried about me” or “it’s just because he cares about me so much”. Even my homeroom teacher one day asked me what was wrong because I would show up every morning miserable. And you think “you don’t understand”. But what you don’t realize is that when men care about you, they care about what happens to you, they don’t care about who you’re with or what you’re doing without their “permission” and need to be with you 24/7 — that’s just plain dysfunctional, supernatural reason or no. He might “care about you” in some screwed up “I have to watch you all the time way” but is that healthy? Is that intense kind of relationship that romance stories should be portraying as the ideal? Is that something that someone with low self-esteem and no dating experience is expected to figure out on their own before they get in way too deep for their own good? Sure *this* is just a movie, but the number of “it’s just because he cares about her” excuses I’ve heard is a symptom of something much more serious. Where any pathological behaviour is somehow justified if it’s done in the name of love. Where men are allowed to emotionally abuse women because, hey, it’s not like he’s smacking her around. Where it slips so under the radar that people think it’s acceptable when the real damage is teaching people that something done in the name of love is ultimately romantic and not at all disturbing. Many women go willingly with this sort of man, because they don’t know they’re being manipulated. Or they have such low self-esteem that they think they can’t do any better and they have to work that much more to make this man like them. Or they have been brought up to believe that this is the way men behave so that’s ok. All of THAT is what I think bothers people about a movie like this. It’s not the simple detail of Edward watching her sleep, for example, it’s what that represents. The control, the excessive emotional attachment, the extreme dysfunctional passion, the ridiculous unattainable romance, etc. I’m not saying this one movie is going to ruin people’s lives if they watch it, but if even one girl comes out thinking that this is what she’d like a relationship to be, even in the back of her mind….I wouldn’t wish that sort of relationship on anyone. It screwed me up for a long time.

  245. @Aligra:

    It’s not creepy – He says he likes watching her sleep cause he says he thinks it’s fascinating!

    Ok, fair enough.

    Say, Aligra, you sound interesting and sexy. Where do you live? What time do you go to bed? Do you have any windows that can be opened from outside?

    I don’t mean that to be creepy. I just think it would be fascinating.

  246. I find it interesting that so many of you think that novelists have some responsibility to present stories with a moral or that promote a certain kind of world view or where the characters are perfect. I would say that most most novelists are just telling stories. They are not always trying to make any kind of point. I think you are all reading way too much into these books. Maybe they are stupid and endorse a Cinderella fantasy but really the author of a novel has no moral obligation to tell a story that endorses any particular moral viewpoint. Please remember that fiction is make-believe. These books are not even realistic fiction. They have vampires and werewolves in them for pete’s sake. They are complete and utter fantasies from the get-go.

  247. @writerdd: I’m not saying that a writer has any obligation one way or the other. I am saying that the concepts that are shown in this book are worrisome and that when you have young adults reading this literature, it’s important to make sure that they are also seeing other perspectives. I think if you have teens in your life, it’s important to discuss a story like this with them, particularly since Twilight is so popular right now. I’m not saying Stephanie Meyers has any obligation one way or the other. I am saying she wrote a story that isn’t very good and that portrays a weak female protagonist who has to take all her guidance from the male in her life. And I don’t think that’s a good story to expose a young girl to without having a discussion about the concerns. Twilight’s primary audience is a very young, impressionable group and it’s important that girls realize that the relationships portrayed are not ‘normal’ or even ‘acceptable.’

    And if you think that Cinderella fantasies don’t have an impact on a young, impressionable girl, how do you explain my own shoe obsession? :)

  248. @writerdd:

    Granted, but the only reason the anti-Twilight folks are getting in arms is that we’re seeing people who ARE taking this stuff seriously. They think that THIS is a good example of romance, that there is nothing wrong in the behavior of the head vampire, etc.

    That is different from the Harry Potter books, to which these are inevitably compared. No one (or at least very few) believed that magic wands worked.

    These are just books with a domineering male and a milksop female. No big deal. Meyer is certainly free to write what she wants. We can’t blame her for anything other than writing boring, derivative books.

    But when that nonsense becomes some sort of roadmap to real romance, there’s a problem. It’s not Meyer’s fault. I’m not really sure who’s fault it is. But it is an issue.

  249. Masala, I agree with you that it’s great for parents to discuss reading material with their children, but I actually doubt whether it will happen in most cases. I certainly never even told my mother what I was reading when I was a teenager and I would not have been interested in her opinion anyway.

    I just don’t think this book necessarily endorses Cinderella relationships any more than Harry Potter endorses witchcraft or Lolita endorses pedophilia.

    Personally I thought Bella should have ended up with Jacob. It would have been a much healthier relationship and if there was any reality in the story, she would have been much happier. I do think the book does over romanticize the obsessive kind of relationship that is not really love (speaking from plenty of experience here, when I was much younger I found these obsessive relationships to be addicting as well). I only thought the fourth book was really creepy, though.

  250. @writerdd:

    Sheesh. Spoiler alerts :)

  251. @phlebas: well, she doesn’t.

  252. @sweetwhysper:

    Apparently not. But that doesn’t make it less creepy or disturbing. Bella not shrieking and telling him to get out does not make this a healthy relationship we’re talking about here.

  253. I don’t think I revealed anything that wasn’t mentioned earlier in the thread. :-)

  254. Okay…

    And lo, as the Winter Solstice came to an end a link appeared in the East in the comments of Maria’s Twilight post. Elles begged of the angry commenters to come to Teen Skepchick and see the birth of the newborn Twilight post and to please, for the love of Reason, give Maria a break and give Elles your most spiteful commentary there.

    I should think I took a more mild position in that, of course, so I wonder if I might not appease all sides.

  255. It’s not the book/movie, it’s what people say to criticism of them. “He’s only doing it because he loves her so much”. When I hear women say stuff like that, it scares the crap out of me.

  256. @writerdd:

    I was kidding :)

    I listened to the first one as an audiobook because my niece pressured me into it. Not ten minutes after I finished it, she jumped in the car and told me the rest of the story. I still owe her a favor…

  257. I think the relationship between Bella and Edward is much more one of infatuation than love, as evidenced by how addicted Bella becomes in such a short time. As in, there’s no such thing as love at first sight, and if you think you’re in it, it’s probably your hormones speaking.

    I think if I was talking to my daughter, who thank goodness isn’t old enough for Twilight yet, I would try to emphasize that infatuation is fun, exciting and wonderful while it lasts, but it alone is not nearly enough to form the basis for a lasting relationship. And of course, if anyone ever EVER tries to tell her how she can spend her time and with whom, then she needs to drop kick his or her sorry *$$ right back to whatever rock he/she climbed out from under.

    But seriously, I think we need to be having these conversations with our kids from early on, since lord knows the Disney princesses don’t wait. And isn’t Twilight really at its core a Cinderella fantasy? The handsome (dead) prince rescues the princess from her boring life of calculus and phys. ed and they both live happily forever after?

  258. Okay, for one thing bashing a book before you even read it and basing your opinion solely off the fact that you didn’t like the movie is just plain stupid. As for the books, yes they’re writen for a younger audience but I enjoyed them very much. I thought they were funny and dont’ depict how love really is but depicts how everyone wishes love would be. He loves her and she loves him and they want to be together forever. What is so horrible about all that? It’s not an unhealthy relationship because they’re young and they learn what most adults never do and that’s compromise. I think the whole virgin vampire and virgin till marriage is a great thing. The relationship is purely fictional but I think it nearly tops Cinderella. I’d never want to live forever but with a guy like Edward, it may not be so bad. Now, I have said my piece.

  259. Really, I love how you people are trash talking Twilight when you probably never read the book. I guess too many people are lazy these days and they can’t read more than 50 pages, give them 500 and suddenly they have a heart attack. Everyone’s leaving the most stupid comments I have ever scene because they don’t even have anything to do with Twilight. Let’s get things straight. I’ve scene the movie and read all the books and I think they are great, and not because “Edward’s so hot!” Ok, let’s meet Bella first. Bella is not hot. (you might think so in the movie but the movie was made for Twilight fans, who read the books and know what’s going on. Personally, I think the movie was nothing like the book.) “In the book,” Bella is a teenager (she describes herself as average, not have any goals in life, not fitting in with the rest of the world. She doesn’t think she is pretty, though she doesn’t have low self-esteem and she is very clumbsy. Bella can’t walk on a flat, stable surface without finding something to trip over.)who leaves her mom and step-dad to live with her dad in Forks, WA (the wettest place in the US). She hates the wet and cold but she does it to make her mom happy, not because they want her to leave, but because that’s the girl she is. She’s smart, caring, basically a martyr. She doesn’t lie, in the book she hates it. She’s also the worst lier in the world. Bella lives to make people happy. She’s very unique, her thoughts are different from everyone else. She’s never had any boyfriends, neither did Edward (he was never attracted to anyone), she’s barely ever had friends and she’s on no level popular. In the book, a lot of people notice her because it’s like giving a child a shiny new toy. Yes, many of the guys are attracted to her but not because they think she’s hot. They like her because she is new to them. When the school only has a population of 300 kids, you’d like anyone, and by the way, Edward does not think she’s hot, he didn’t even give her a second thought until he smelled her blood. (this is all from Edward’s perspectice in “Midnight Sun” which is not a book yet. you can read part of midnight sun on stepheniemeyer.com) This is how Edward described her: “When it came to the human mind, I’d heard it all before and then some. Today, all thoughts were consumed with the trivial drama of a new addition to the small student body here. It took so little to work them all up. I’d scene the new face repeated in thought after thought from every angle. Just an ordinary human girl. The excitement over her arrival was tiresomely predictable-like flashing a shiny object at a child. Half the sheep-like males were already imagining themselves in love with her, just because she was something new to look at. I tried harder to tune them out.” so there. Edward’s family isn’t even popular. They only talk to eachother and they don’t make friends with humans. I’m sure they’d like to but the whole school thinks they are freaks and they are afraid. The only thing that made Bella catch his attention, besides her smell, was her “silent mind.” He was curious, and that drawed him in, but once he smelled her blood he imagined 30 different ways to kill her and the other students in his class. But he didn’t, because that would expose his familys’ secret and ruin everything that Carlisle (his foster dad, also a vampire) worked so hard for.
    And when Bella first saw Edward, yes, she was attracted to him, who wouldn’t be, he’s described as looking like a runway model, but she doesn’t imagine her being with him and having sex and all that crap that comes with being a teenager, she just thinks that his whole family looks beautiful and that’s it. She doesn’t follow him around and stalk him. This book book may get children obsessed, but not because they believe that someday they are going to meet an amazingly hot vampire who will protect them and give them all the love and affection they need. IT’S A FICTION BOOK FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! NONE OF IT IS REAL! So whoever says that this book is planting that idea in little girls’ heads is just stupid. Do you honestly think that girls think that this story will actually happen to them someday? If you do, I suggest you get off the computer and call a local shrink. But the thing is, none of you read the books. You can’t even understand the love between Bella and Edward, and not because they think eachother are hot. I bet all you married people on here don’t even have half the relationship Bella and Edward do. (again, not saying that any of this is real, but it’s nice to think that somewhere in the world people actually love eachother for who they are but I guess you people don’t because the first thing that popped into your head when you saw the movie was “Oh, this is just another stupid movie about horny teenagers who are in love because the new girl is dating the hottest guy in school.” Think about this, if your husband or wife was in trouble, what would you do? Would you risk everything to save them or would you say “Oh, well, screw it. I don’t care about him that much. If it means I could possibly die, well, I guess it’s better him than me. That’s what the books are about TRUE LOVE. Not fake teenage crap about couples who say the are going to be together forever. It’s real, they love eachother for who they are. Whatever attracts you to your husband or wife is what attracts them to eachother. But if your attracted to your husband or wife because he’s great at sex, can get you drugs, or pay the bills while you sit on your ass all day, sorry, but that is not what’s keeping them together. Also, nobody better be comparing this to Disney. Screw Disney, Hannah Montana can die for giving girls the idea that they can have two lives and flirt with whoever they feel like. Screw High School Musical for giving kids the idea that they will date some hot boy on the basketball team who sings as well as he shoots hoops, off stage, I bet he shoot heroine. Is that the message you want to give to your kids? I didn’t think so!

  260. Geez, I read more comments and you people don’t know what love is. Sure there is such thing at love at first sight, not getting together and first sight which Bella and Edward didn’t do they got to know eachother first. Do you think if Edward found out that Bella was like everyother teenage girl at school he’d still love her, no, he’d dump her ass. AGAIN, NONE OF THIS IS REAL. In Twilight, they just had a “magic” connection, they could feel it and we all know there’s no such thing as magic, it’s fiction! Do I believe in love at first sight, yes, I do, do I think that there is some kind of electric spark you feel after the first day of talking to them while you are sitting next to them in a dark classroom room with a movie running, I’d like to hope so, but sadly no, there isn’t. And do you want to know why? Really, do you want to? Ok, well I’ll tell you for the 7 billionth time IT’S FICTION!!!!!!!

  261. And one more thing, all you middle aged prunes who left comments, you’re just jealous because you don’t have a relationship like that. You’re all probably single moms who are working 24/7 trying to put together some money to pay the bills.

  262. phlebas haha comment 246 was funny! and yes, I do think it would be creepy if some guy from my school who I barely knew was in my room, but it’s fiction and nothing like that would ever happen. Unless, you get killed my a murderer because you left your window unlocked.

  263. Phlebas, I know and understand where you are coming from. But, you do over exaggerate.

    Edward was not saying that she is sexy and that he wanted to know her address etc.
    He did not make it out the same way that you did.

    I understand your point, but it’s a movie and trying to speak for Edward himself isn’t the right way to prove your point.
    You can only prove something from what’s there for evidence when it comes to fiction movies.

    You’re acting as though what you said to me is what Edward was saying and thinking, but there is no evidence for that. It’s your mind thinking for the characters, which just doesn’t work.

  264. The BEST review I have heard for the Twilight series is that “It’s kinda like those books with a really good plot, but horrible writing, where you hate reading it, but the story makes you keep going. It just doesn’t have the good story to make you keep going.”

    Comparing this author to J.K. Rowling is, put short, offensive. People making that connection have clearly not read any Harry Potter books.

  265. …or, for that matter, any good books at all.

  266. @crazygrl44:

    1. This review, as I have said, is purely about the movie. I am sure there are lots of people who have watched the movie without reading the books. I am also sure there are lots of young girls who have watched the movie without reading the books, based on the popularity of the movie and the hotness of the lead character. That’s why I wrote the review.

    2. When you say ‘scene’, I think you mean ‘seen.’ Sorry, it was driving me crazy.

    3. I think you’ll find that the Skepchick writers and commenters are of all different ages, demographics and relationship status. All of that is irrelevant to their opinions of the movie. Please think about why someone who has an opinion that is different from your own makes you so angry that it means you have to attack the people themselves.

    4. Skepchick is about trying to have civil, friendly discussions. Please try to keep that in mind. If you have a point, make it without questioning the characters of the people who have opinions other than your own.

    5. I say this to anyone who’s argument is ‘it’s just fiction.’ I understand that people reading these books and watching this movie know that it is fiction. My concern is the message that the fiction sends. ‘It’s just a story’ is all well and good, but we all know that words have power and stories have power. They always have. Fiction is constantly used as a metaphor, a cautionary tale, a way to pass on traditions and histories. That’s what most fairy tales are. Little Red Riding Hood – don’t stray from the path, don’t go out alone, don’t trust strangers. Cinderella – it’s better to be hardworking and sweet and kind than to be rich and lazy and mean and it will pay off because you’ll get rescued eventually (it’s really a story about karma, isn’t it?).

    I’m not saying that anyone reading Twilight will think it’s real and that there are actual vampires around. I am saying that the relationship between Bella and Edward is dysfunctional and is portrayed as being perfect and idealized. And that sends a bad message.

    That is all.

  267. Ok, not quite all. Seriously, why not check out Elles’ post over at Teen Skepchick? http://skepchick.org/teen/?p=571

    She was much nicer to the movie than I was… :)

  268. Man. These comments are just sad.
    Masala has made several very good points. I suggest our ‘crazy’ commenters read them and think about them a bit.

    [BTW, I did read the book, and my reaction was: "Meh." ]

  269. The idea of ancestral/genetic memory is one of interest in the old soviet union. They had a whole department of metaphysical research. Kind of like that new american tv show ‘Fringe’. An aquaintance, a blood decendant of Carpathian Slavs, movies like ‘Twilight” have always been of interest. Only recently did he find out his true ancestry, for the ‘old country’ was seldom spoken about (could count the number of times on my right hand as a child). SO, the point is, the movie, in ‘some aspects’ intrigues some on a more visceral level. The fact that Edward is attracted by ‘smell’ is not unusual, as modern scientists have determined that we respond to others via pheromones that are not ‘consciously’ perceived, but, on an ‘animal’ level. I know of people who can sense odors that others cannot. Consider those who experience migraine headaches, some report levels of enhanced hearing, sight, smell, touch, sunlight bothering them, etc, etc. BUT, the idea of bloodsuckers is not new. The Slavs have the ‘Rusalka’ myths, of maidens who met untimely, questionable deaths, coming back as ‘spirits’ of the waters. Note that many ‘legends’ and ‘myths’ are enhanced versions of a real time, true event, passed down and embellished. And, not a few of us like a good story with mystery. Do not many of us , at some level seek a ‘former’ enhanced version of mankind, as though we have fallen, or weakened, or diminished in some way over the eons. Theoretical types say that early man was small, dumb, ‘caveman’ , neanderthals that were of low intelligence, but, some think the reverse, that is in evidence by archeological finds of vast cities buried that had water and sewer systems, and all worked without the aid of electricity as we know it. Remember, we all want to more than we are, hence why would we even try to do better than yesterday. It is in our nature, an Eden, a Nirvana, a Shangri-La once lost, and ever after sought again, first in our ‘subconscious’ and then, in real time/place. izbohm, mikkiy

  270. @crazygrl44: FAIL.

    I’m 26, maybe that’s “middle aged” to you. I was at one point told that if I was 26 and still on the internet it obviously meant I was just lonely because I couldn’t find a good husband to take care of me and keep me occupied.

    On that note: jealous of that relationship? I HAD that relationship. And it is far less fun than it sounds in the books. But you know what, get back to me in a few years time when you’ve dated a guy who made all your choices for you, denied you access to money, the ability to drive yourself anywhere, the right to choose your own friends, the right to see friends HE didn’t approve of (because of a baseless fear that you’re going to leave him for one of them…which, I’m sorry, say all you want about Jacob being “dangerous,” the way Edward acts through the books reads pretty clearly as pure jealousy), and sets you future up for you the way HE wants to see it. And then tell me how much fun dating an Edward Cullen is. Bonus points if you can use the phrase “Well, at least he never hit me.”

  271. Mikky said:

    The fact that Edward is attracted by ’smell’ is not unusual, as modern scientists have determined that we respond to others via pheromones that are not ‘consciously’ perceived, but, on an ‘animal’ level.

    Ahem.
    http://skepchick.org/blog/?p=1188

  272. I think it’s always best to read the book first, you know they are always better and give you more insight. I’ve not seen the movie, myself, but having read the book I am certain I’d have a much different understanding of the relationship and attraction than one who has only seen the movie.
    In the book it’s made very clear that Bella’s looks are fairly average, not that she’s unattractive but no great beauty and she pales in comparison to the beauty of the vampire family – who as perfect hunters are able to draw their victims in with their sheet beauty. Who on earth they could possibly get to portray the picture of perfection on the large screen escapes me, and surely when I do see the film I will be severely disappointed as I can’t think of any actor or actress in that age range that fits the description even mildly.
    However Edward is not attracted to Bella on sheer looks, or even her scent… He is astonished by her because she is so inhuman in the way that most are very predictable, boring even. But Bella is nothing of the sort. Her reactions, even to him being a vampire, are so far off the beaten path of anything that he is ever experienced before that he’s fascinated with her — with her mind, really, and also the fact that he can’t read her thoughts which is both frusterating and infuriating as most humans are so easy to read he knows what they are thinking.
    This is the true fascination with Bella, although he also does feel the protective draw — since she can barely walk down a flight of steps without injury.
    Yes, so much of the book even was far-fetched — such as she’d never found a single boy to have a crush on prior to this Edward Cullen character… At 17, I find that very hard to believe. Also that she’s not struggling with the same issues that any new-to-dating girl would be struggling with, like “gee — what if I don’t kiss well”, etc.
    But part of the splendor in the book is it’s simplicity. Made for 9th grade reading and above level, you can’t expect a lot of depth — it more reminds me of THE LOST BOYS of 1980′s pop culture fame. It doesn’t all have to make sense, after all, that is what fantasy is about.
    Oddly enough, as I read the book and felt her pain for wanting – longing, really – to see this mysterious and perfect boy again, I all too clearly remembered what it was like to have such a painful, all-consuming crush on someone mysterious and beautiful, and clearly out of your league. And then when the hint of affection is returned, and you wonder how it could possibly be you that he is interested in… The description is so very real and I wondered how the author recalled some of those details so clearly.
    In fact, and I feel silly for it, after I finished the book, I myself missed Edward. I couldn’t wait to see him, again. I felt a little stressed, a little sad. Like it me who was losing something. I was able to identify, even in the book’s simplicity, with Bella. I longed to have him in my life. Maybe that means I’m missing something in my own life, maybe it’s the sign of a good author, maybe it means I’m stuck in the emotional mind of a 15 year old, but I can certainly see where the book appeals to the younger crowd. It’s nothing more than a glorified good girl/bad boy love story, and we all know most of us love a bad boy, a strong protective male with a bit of a wild side. Makes for some thrills and excitement, for sure — I dated way too many of those bad boys, myself and it was always an exhilerating roller coaster ride. Unhealthy, perhaps, but wow did I come out with some great stories and enough adrenaline rushes to satisfy any junkie!!
    So I can see the draw, the power of this movie. But without reading the book first and understanding the author’s true intentions, I can see where there would be a world of disappointment. Where myself, who wants to see the movie just for kicks, will walk in to the theater already “in the know”.

  273. I want to add, after reading a few comments, that one of the worst offenders on earth (in my opinion) on young girls trying to learn about love and life are SOAP OPERAS! Oh, my gosh, those are the worst! No movie could destroy a mind as quickly or severely than those who idolize a soap opera!

    I was young in the days of Luke and Laura as, after he raped her, they fell in love and ran across the country in hiding together on one of the most popular summers, surely, in General Hospital’s history.

    So if the world can fall in love and idolize this couple — a young, teen girl that ends up falling in love with the older Disco owner who’s sick obsession with her caused him to rape her (as she cried and pleaded with him to stop) on the dance floor to Herb Alpert’s “RISE” (I can’t hear that song without thinking of rape, thank you very much!), then a 17 year old girl falling in love with a vampire isn’t really going to break minds any more severely.

    After all, it’s being swept away into the fantasy of the unreal that draws us in… A movie or book on “real life” wouldn’t be very exciting… I can see it now… Scene opens on man opening the refrigerator, “Honey, where’s the butter?”

    “Right in front of you.”

    “No it’s not, I think we’re out.”

    “It’s in the door… In the compartment that reads B-U-T-T-E-R!”

    “No, it’s not.”

    “YES IT IS” she screeches fromthe next room where she is folding yet another load of laundry after it’s already been in the dryer way to long to look presentable without ironing.

    “No, we’re out.”

    She storms in the kitchen, wondering how he could possibly have survived before meeting her when he clearly couldn’t find his own backside if it weren’t attached to him, flings open wide the refigerator door, snatches the box of butter and slams it on the kitchen counter before walking away in a huff.

    “Oh,” he says. “You bought a new brand, I didn’t recognize the box.”

    … Dreadfully, dreadfully boring real life is. It would never sell. I think I’d give up a few days of real life to run around with a vampire that might lose control and sink his teeth into my jugular, too, just to remember what it feels like to want someone so badly… And with that sense of smell, I bet a vampire could ALWAYS find the butter!!

  274. @crazygrl44: well, if 14 is “middle aged” my 22 year old sister must be ancient! (God bless her old soul) Anyway, your opinion wasn’t very strong, but i can understand your point. What everyone is basically saying is that Twilight is giving young teens the wrong impression, you get an idea of certain things based off of the media (such as real things like all races act a certain way or fake things like aliens are all green) the media contributes to it. So, young children (girls) looking at this may think that’s how true love is, but it’s not like that. (i bet there are people who can say that their husband crawled into their room from their window just to talk to them in the night). But Twilight just like anything that is showing their impression of what True Love is like (may or may not be realistic) such as Underworld (also a vampire movie) the main character Selene (vampire) falls in love with Michael (werewolf) and vampires and werewolves are enemies (just like in Twilight) and they fight for their love and in the war. Selene portrays a strong female. I’m not saying she’s strong as in physically, even though she is, I am saying mentally self aware as in she’s an independent female who doesn’t need to get approval for anything from a male such as Michael, the Lycan(Werewolf) she is in Love with. Unlike, Bella, who is very dependent, but then again she is a human who constantly gets attacked by vampires or thugs. But they could have always made her seem stronger such as making her very strategic or something so she could get herself out of trouble and Edward doesn’t always have to save her. Also, if they made her a stronger character she probably would not have limbs broken because of her being a “klutz” and getting tricked easily (such as James tricking her to go to the ballet studio. She should have been wary and called for help or something, but that’s obviously how Stephanie Meyer wanted Bella to be portrayed). Also, Disney isn’t solely based off of Hanna Montana and High School Musical there are also other shows and animated films that made Disney what it is today (most of those films were based off of plays, tales, and books). Also, you said that this movie is based off of love, but I highly doubt that when you love someone you fall in love in a matter of days and instantly want to turn into a vampire. Their relationship was the beginnings of what seemed like an abusive relationship because Edward controlled everything and Bella just said “Yes” even though she did (maybe once) she didnt listen to Edward (such as leaving to go to Jacob), but like I said their relationship was the beginning of an abusive one and Jacob even said to Bella that she may be in an abusive teenage relationship. (3rd book) Yes, there is such a thing as Love at First sight and yes, there are some people who marry in the first month, but those relationships aren’t successful because you don’t truly get to know the person. (i guess in Bella’s case she has forever with Edward to know everything about him) Like you said “AGAIN, NONE OF THIS IS REAL” and you shouldn’t have gotten all worked up over the review in the first place. Remember a review is all about opinions and there was no need for you to call everyone who didn’t seem (or didn’t at all) to approve of the movie or series.

    Before you say that I don’t know what I am talking about. I have read all 4 books and they are just those, books. They are not amazing (I have read some amazingly written books) but just like I said before they’re just books and the movie wasn’t amazing either, but I don’t think it was horrible. I personally think it could have flowed better and like my sister (Media Studies Major) pointed out and would like to state, that Edward was dying of the Spanish influenza (when Carlisle saved him) which happened in 1918, but the attire as well as the flashback sequence was reminiscent of the last 1800′s in which they got their Victorian clothing style from. Also from seeing multiple films ranging from late 1800′s-today this was nor the BEST romance or BEST vampire film of all time. It was a poorly done film. Also as you stated ‘this movie was for the fans only’ is completely inaccurate. A movie production, granted most movies are based off of books, they are done to visually embody the imagination that a book envelops in an individual while reading, a movie is SOLELY a profit driven organization; when a film is created it is for people to escape from everyday life as well as to bring in audiences by the MASSES. That, ‘crazygirl44′ is called business.

    Books written and well loved= lots of money racked in, which then leads to movie deals purposed +more money accumulated when the author still has creative control. And that finally makes potential Box office gold. It is all profit, it is all business; for the production company as well as the author.

    So you saying this movie is solely for the fans of the book is incorrect, and if that were the case the author would have made her very own youtube movie and only book fans can view. So what I am trying to say is that before making a comment such as that just makes you seem ignorant. And as my little sister stated she read ALL the books as well as saw the movie.

  275. @writerdd: I just don’t think this book necessarily endorses Cinderella relationships any more than Harry Potter endorses witchcraft or Lolita endorses pedophilia.

    —————-

    Key problem here: Harry Potter definitely endoreses the types of human interactions in the book that are considered “good” and have positive outcomes for the characters. Witchcraft is a device. In the Twighlight books, the “good” relationship is this creepy gustatory pedophile thing, and the DEVICE is that he’s a vampire. Comparing apples to apples, if this relationship is shown as a positive interaction for the characters, it is being endorsed.

    And if you’ll recall, Humbert and Lolita don’t live happily ever after. So again, you have to compare apples to apples.

  276. @bug_girl: I love the phrase “modern scientists”. @_@

  277. As said before, I loved the Twilight books and have reread the entire series. I do, however, agree with some people saying that at certain points the character Edward has had some more controlling moments. Yes his “werewolves are dangerous” excuse was essentially him trying to cover his jealousy. I was in a relationship with a guy who had my car and cell phone more than me and I never saw my friends without him. I also realized in the books he gives it up. He stops fighting her on it and she gets to go and be friends with who she wants to be friends with. She makes her own decisions. And yes he was terrfied of losing her and he wasn’t going to send her away but if she chose to be with Jacob or even Mike, he would have bowed out. This book does not encourage girls to stay in abusive controlling relationships. It teaches compromise. He encourages her to go to college because he would much rather send her on that path than turn her into a vampire. That’s devotion and love, pure and simple. I’m 21 and I haven’t lived a whole heck of a lot but I’ve dated enough losers to know that the fictional relationship two fictional characters have is almost ideal, except for the whole vampire thing. And it’s hardly anywhere near a pedophile thing. He’s physically seventeen. If I dated a nineteen year old who acted like he was fourteen would I be a pedophile? I maintain that this book does not give any necessarily bad messages to girls.

  278. And I must agree that it would be fairly creepy to find out a guy was watching me sleep without my permission, sexy vampire dude or not. The he was fascinated excuse is fairly flimsy and that’s at best. It’s creepy, one way or another. If you think it’s cool with you, well then more power to ya.

  279. @funnyface1201: There’s the core of it though, who is he to “send” her on any path?

  280. It’s about him wanting to protect her. He wants her to stay human and he thinks that would be whats best for her. She makes her own decisions and so does he. He says he will not turn her and he doesn’t want anyone else to do it but he eventually agrees to it. He’s not forcing her into going to college but he encourages it. That’s all. Even with him wanting her to to the college thing SHE still chooses to be a vampire. She wants that and he doesn’t force her to do anything.

  281. @funnyface1201: What does she get to “encourage” him to do?

  282. Ya know, looking back I can see where a younger, inexperienced person might read the book and mistake jealousy for caring — which I so wrongly did, myself, as a young girl. I thought “Wow, he must REALLY care about me to act that way!”

    It was later – in THERAPY – where I learned how unhealthy jealousy truly is, and it’s more of a posession thing than it is about caring in any shape or form and about the individuals insecurity.

    This, however, would not be obvious to the teen viewer who might romanticize it. Jealousy is nothing to romanticize, but if you knew this and dug a little deeper into Edward’s character, it may come more naturally to him as he is a predator, and his instincts might be much more like any predator where protecting your prey is life or death. Not that vampires experience death, but you catch my drift.

    Take a look at TV, though, for instance if you want to talk crap and feeding the minds of the youth… I can clearly, clearly recall how I thought THE BRADY BUNCH was the average American family.

    Yeah, I know.

    I felt as if my own family was completely off, dysfunctional in all it’s imperfections because we were not more like the Brady Bunch. So I honestly think it does more harm than good to portray such unreaslistic expecatations in the media rather than what is more common – at least in this way you don’t think something is “wrong” with you because you are not meeting the grade.

    Of course we all know now, that behind the Brady Bunch was a messed up bunch of folks portraying the “ideal” family where the real actors were struggling… Marcia and Greg were sleeping together, I believe Marcia was also on a lot of cocaine during filming… Poor Cindy had to have her hair bleached at that incredibly young age to fit the “ideal” of what was cute… Mr Brady in real life was homosexual and fairly disgusted at any scenes with his TV wife where they had to get too affectionate…

    That’s more reality.

    So any kids out there… There is no prince charming. It doesn’t exist, the same as you are not ever going to be perfect and someone else’s perfect ideal. People are flawed, it’s who we are. Sure, you can put up a front… But there’s only so many years you can go on and make sure your hair and make-up and clothing is perfect each morning before he sees the “real” you… One day the burp, or perhaps “worse” slips out accidentally and he realizes that you have to poop just like everyone else.

    Of course the idea of the fantasy world is what keeps us going, and it surely can start out that way. But, as someone pointed out, that’s infatuation — it is not love. I know you think it’s love, it surely feels amazing and all-consuming, but it’s not actually what love is. But wow, it is very exciting and thrilling while it lasts.

    Even reading the book, I thought to myself how sad because of experience I realize that all of these wonderful feelings they are experiencing will one day fade. The butterflies don’t last forever. But so long as you have movies and books and stories that can temporarily transport you to a place where they do exist, you don’t have to let them go.

    And, once again, anyone critiquing the books, etc. Keep in perspective… 9th grade reading level, folks. These is not a work of art. It’s simple, it’s kind of fun, but you have to go into it looking at it as what it is. Just as you wouldn’t read JUNIE B JONES or the AMBER BROWN series expecting it to be more than it is, something aimed at younger audiences. It’s very simple reading, there’s no huge psychological thriller with twists and turns that amaze you… But that’s not what it’s supposed to be. What you have is a simple book that can be enjoyable to read if you don’t want to rip things apart, and so long as someone is enjoying the ride — then it’s done what it was supposed to do. That makes it a success. Maybe not for the 50 year old rocket science, but it’s definitely thrilled it’s intended audience.

  283. So many comparing this to reality… He’s a VAMPIRE, guys! Where’s the reality in that? Watching her sleep or not…

    And the pedaphile thing, that crossed my mind as well as he only looks 17 but is much, much older.

    However in the book they are sure to tell you that Bella’s personality is more that of a middle-aged woman, not a teenager. I suppose that’s supposed to make it less sickening that she’s really dating a “dirty old man”. But, hey, it’s not real. If all 100 year old men looked like that, I’d probably be dating one, too.

  284. I’ve also heard that the seond movie is supposed to follow more true to the book – apparently the first movie did not?

  285. One more thing for those disappointed in the movie who have not read the book… Pet Semetary…

    The first book I ever read was Pet Semetary. I was a teenager, my sister was a big Stephen King fan. I had just broken up with my boyfriend and was in so much pain and needed an escape from my mind, from reality.

    My sister talked me into reading a book (bah, HUMBUG!! I still hate to read, I am amazed – as is everyone I know – that I read Twilight which goes to show you how easy it is to read, not a complicated story at all).

    Anyway, I read Pet Semetary and for 3 nights I sat up into the wee hours of the morning, turning page after page with my eyes completely wide — totally entranced and freaked out, the book scared the crap out of me.

    The movie soon came out and I was THRILLED! I couldn’t wait to see it! Although I was kind of skeptical, because there are things in the book I thought would be impossible to portray on the screen. Special effects only go so far.

    When I saw the movie, I was so pissed off. Who were these people? That didn’t happen, this was supposed to happen, they didn’t recreate this or that right… It sucked. Out loud, even.

    There’s way too much insight you get from reading a book that can never be conveyed in a movie. What takes days and hours to read can’t possibly be effectively crammed into a 2 hour movie. It’s simply impossible. So go light on the movie, after all – it is only a movie. They have no choice but to cut corners and do their best, but can’t possibly make it as good as a book.

  286. @serendipity After all, it’s being swept away into the fantasy of the unreal that draws us in… A movie or book on “real life” wouldn’t be very exciting… I can see it now… Scene opens on man opening the refrigerator, “Honey, where’s the butter?”

    You had me ROFL (a little current lingo from a middle-age housewife here) with your description of married life. Like I said before, part of the allure of these kinds of romances is the lack of human characteristics (no halitosis, in this case, no dirty socks or towels on the floor, etc…)

    It does have me a little concerned when I hear real live young women actually believing the lie of love at first sight. Real life just isn’t like that, and if that is what you expect, you’re never going to be satisfied with your life. (I can totally relate to the Brady Bunch as role model thing, too.) Of course, as you so wittily pointed out, that’s why we don’t have best sellers about real life trials and tribulations. (Even weddings — yick, who’d want to go through all that caterer, band and flowers angst again???)

    But that’s why I really enjoyed the books; they took me temporarily away from my life boring to do lists. And that’s also why I try to make sure my DD has enough sense to know the difference between a fairy tale and real life love.

  287. @ jerilyns:

    Thanks, I’ll be here all week.

  288. i love the twilight sereis. i dont know if everyone has read them i dont have a problem with the books. i just have a problem. Thats the actors they picked for soem of the characters. Who the picked for Alice, Bella,Edward, and Rosalie are fine but i dont like the actors they picked fro Emmet or Jasper. They dont fit the characters that are descibed in the book!
    Besides that i think everything is fine! I dont now why all these comments say that it’s all horrible!Staphanie Meyer is one of my favorite book authors.
    I undersatand everything she is trying to say. even if i might be 13 years old!

  289. Whoa, whoa, here, mikkiy did NOT endorse ANYTHING about this flic. The statement made is an OBSERVATION and my OPINION ONLY. I have no credentials to flaunt about. My opinion is just that…as your’s are. IF this blog is only from the american perspective or for that matter western european, the fact that ‘western’ countries are decidedly ‘post modern/post Christian’ is an evident reality. Many here glory in the ‘neo-pagan’ viewpoints, that is evident. SO, once the barrier is down, the flood can enter.
    IF, one wishes the ‘Barrier’ to be raised again, then, one must of necessity be instrumental in re-establishing it. If, that is one’s mission, then, have at it…just be ready to give an ‘apologia’ for your position. AND, be sure you are on the right footing. Sincerely, mikkiy

  290. She can encourage him to do whatever she thinks would be good for him. Is it wrong to try and encourage a person into making a decision that you feel is best to them? Ultimately it is their decision. The thing about controlling relationships is that it’s up to an individual person to describe controlling. In my opinion if some guy didn’t want me to be hanging out with a guy who was in love with me and pulled the he’s dangerous card, I’d fully understand. I wouldn’t hang out with the guy until my boyfriend or whatever was okay with it. He can’t be controlling her if she gets what she wants.

    Onto this jealousy thing. Everyone is jealous. If you can honestly tell me you are perfectly fine and don’t have a little bit of bitterness inside you when you see your boyfriend talking to an ex or someone you know very well is in love with him, you’re a liar. Everyone is jealous. It’s not an unhealthy emotion and it does show some form of caring. He doesn’t take it to extremes. He’s reasonable and negotiates. That’s hardly controlling and hardly makes for an unhealthy relationship. If she’s happy and she feels she is being treated properly then no one else’s opinions really matter. If he isn’t hurting her mentally, physically, or emotionally, it’s not really unhealthy.

    Sure it is just a story and it is all make believe, but what everyone is saying is that is somehow encourages something that is “wrong” which it doesn’t. What works for one person may not work for another and vice-versa. Make believe or not, childishly written or not, and whether you liked it or not, the book, in my opinion does not make Bella out to be some poor abused teenage girl trapped in a relationship. She’s there because she wants to be and he is what makes her happy. That’s it. The end.

  291. @funnyface1201:

    1) We’re talking about the movie.

    2) I’m sorry but it is never, under any circumstance, ok for a partner to tell you who to hang out with…ever. If another person has feelings for you, that’s not your problem. It should be your decision who you hang out with. Period. Sure, it might be because they “care”, but your partner should *trust* you. What happens if they start saying every attractive person is in love with you so that you won’t hang out with them? Jealousy is not an acceptable motivation to tell people what to do just because it’s a common emotion. It’s an irrational emotion and rational people can learn to ignore it. If your partner cheats, then break up with them. It sucks, but why be in a relationship with someone you felt needed to be kept on a leash – or who feles they needed to keep you on a leash? Particularly when you’ve done nothing to make them not trust you. Constant worry about who our partner is with and why is pretty much the definition of an unhealthy relationship.

    3) Saying that if I can honestly tell you something then I’m a liar, effectively prevents me from giving any response that can’t be dismissed as a lie.

  292. God thy name is Skepchick!!!

  293. I was browsing the internet just now looking for the cast of Twilight when I stumbleed upon this to which my response was “They are the Gods!!!” I am fourteen years old and seem to be the only teenager who read the first book and declared “B.S.!!!!” It’s like all of a sudden they’re in love. What??? There is absolutely NO basis whatsoever for these two to fall in love which drives me utterly insane trying to figure out what everyone sees in them.

  294. STEPHENIE MEYER MADE A SORRY EXCUSE FOR A BOOK OUT OF MARY JANICE DAVIDSON’S SPECTACULAR *UNDEAD SERIES* WHICH IS SOOOO MUCH BETTER!! READ IT!! YOU’LL SEE WHY!!

    UNDEAD SERIES: ELIZABETH/ BETSY & ERIC SINCLAIR

    TWILIGHT: Isabella/ Bella & Edward Cullen/ Masen

    U.S.: B & E

    TWILIGHT: B & E

    SO, YES I AM SAYING THAT MEYER AVOIDED PLAGUREISM BY MERELY CHANGING NAMES!!!

    READ THE UNDEAD SERIES AND YOU’LL FIND OUT!!!

    Also: there are Jessicas and werewolves in both books and Alice is a copy of Tina. + UNDEAD IS FUNNY!!!

  295. Anyone who claims Twilight fans aren’t rabidly obsessed? 292 comments on this thread (well, 293 now, ha). Many many of them from people who don’t ever post anything on skepchick normally; who joined the group apparently just to defend their Edward and their Bella. 292 comments. Obsessed!

  296. @Teen_Writer114, you’re not the only young person who hated Twilight (and you don’t have to shout, we can hear you), my daughter hated it as well, and is constantly having to defend her opinion in school. Gosh, it’s almost like she said the world WASN’T 6,000 years old or something! (She has to defend that one as well.) Interesting about the plagiarism.

  297. Apparently no one on here ever feels jealous. If my boyfriend we’re going to hang out with some chick who was in love with him I’d throw the biggest hissy fit known to man. It’s not right to make your partner feel uncomfortable. Yes, they trust you but they don’t trust the other person who is in love with you. I’d react the same way Edward did and I probably would no have been able to negotiate the way he did. I’m a jealous person and I prefer my guys to hang out with mainly guys and people who aren’t in love with him. I guess that means I’m forcing him to be in a controlling relationship but whatever. I’ll sleep better knowing he’s not out gallavanting around with some other chick. If he’s going to cheat, he’ll cheat but I’m not about to make it easy for him.

    I guess obsessed would be a good word to describe it or maybe just irked. I understand we all have different opinions this is just mine. I don’t think anyone should be crucified for having a different opinion or saying they didn’t like the books but I did and this is just an opinion.

  298. @funnyface1201: There’s a difference, though, between feeling jealous and actually telling people who they can and cannot hang out with or behaving in such a way that you feel guilty for doing what you want to do in your own life.

  299. Yes, there is a difference but the whole point is that he realizes it’s wrong and he stops. He says he’s sorry and decides he was just being jealous. Yes, a girl shouldn’t be told who she can and cannot hang out with but, and I know I’ll get hell for saying this one, he loves her. Maybe not the greatest excuse but people do crazy things while in love and as long as they realize the error of their ways and change, it’s okay. I’ve been with a controlling guy, so I know one when I see one, or read about one in this case, which makes this a very sad debate indeed, however he’s not controlling. He just cares and he’s not actually hurting her.

    And for the record, if you know your boyfriend is uncomfortable with you hanging out with a guy who is in love with you and you find a way to do it anyway, you should feel guilty, even if he says it doesn’t bother me. You should feel pretty crappy about it.

  300. This thread is hilarious. I didn’t pay much attention to it when it was posted, because, teen vampire romance? Yawn. I’d much rather read a Scott Sigler gorefest horror novel (CONTAGIOUS is out in hardcover in two days! Woohoo!).

    But, wow. Twilight fans are almost as annoying as Harry Potter fans. I can’t imagine getting into an argument with someone because they don’t like (or aren’t interested in) Scott Sigler. That would be silly.

  301. i happen to disagree with what you say about this movie. and i am entitled to my opinion. so i say this movie was a very entertaining movie. let me ask have you even read the books? if you did you might not be criticizing an exciting movie such as this one. this movie is a very good movie and i understand that you are also entitled to your opinion and i think that you probably shouldn’t be criticizing what you obviously don’t know anything about

  302. Come on people, lighten up. It saddens me that underlying messages and morals are being brought up like this. Surely there are more important things to worry about? No?

    Let the magic be.

  303. i dont understand why you all HATE twilight so much!! i think that is is GREAT, infact, i think that its BETTER than great.

    plus, honestly i HATE to read, but i tarted to read the twilight book, and i cant stop reding it!
    And im even wearing an “edward cullen twilight” shirt RIGHT NOW!

    i mean, its not even bad if you rally focus on all the stuff in it, i mean, even my grandmother wants to see it. its just about love, vampires, fighting, and everything else that people love in life.

    so just think about it instead of jumping straight to conclusion ( even if you have already seen and read the book) just give it a chance!! >=|

  304. @harriet132: This reaction always makes me laugh. This is an internet thread where the underlying morals (etc) of this movie *is the topic of discussion* and those of us who bother to discuss it are told to stop and to lighten up. If it were the case for every internet forum that people talked about “more important things” rather than participate, I think the internet would die.

  305. @jTEEN_Gurl26: Is it at all possible that Masala (and others) did give the movie a chance and just didn’t like it anyway?

  306. I just watched the movie (read the book the other day) and wow, glad I read the book first. I was (sadly? Is it pathetic?) thinking of this thread when I went into the movie and realized anyone walking in without reading it would really think it was pretty stupid.

    Well, anyone over 17 would be disappointed– and I am not (I promise) putting down the young ladies; I can vividly recall what my tastes were at that very age and this movie would have topped my list, surely, at that time. But tastes mature as our minds do. Sad facts of life. Just like you teens don’t watch Barney, anymore. One day, and I know it sounds implausible, Edward Cullen won’t make your heart skip a beat.

    But those of us a little older and wiser realize that somewhere in our 20′s, when we decided to rent that “super cool” movie with the awesome hunky guy we thought was the BEST movie EVER when we were about 14, we realized the movies we loved in our youth are soooooo lame.

    Wow, so lame. Hide your head and pretend you never liked it kind of lame, much less admit you went to the theater three and four times (in a row, even) to watch it and paid perfectly good allowance toward it!

    So, again, take it for what it is. A movie and books aimed at TEEN GIRLS! If you’re not a teen girl, then you’re not expected to like it any more than a teen girl would be expected to go watch a production of Sesame Street Live and enjoy it. Their minds are still young, they are still developing, and their tastes (pardon the vampire pun) are different.

    So if you are old and enjoyed it, anyway, consider it a freebie. But the movie is still best if you read the book, first, so you know all the good stuff the movie leaves out. Like myself, who hates to read and decided I was taking the plunge and was going to read something. Anything! Twilight wasn’t on my list, but with all the hype everywhere I thought I’d give it a whirl and, being a young adult book, I found it soooo light and easy to read. It was so simple, so uncomplicated and that can be refreshing from time to time in this hectic adult world.

    Entertaining enough to have gone to 4 stores tonight looking for book 2 (while hiding my face — I suppose I could just pretend I’m buying it for my niece?) which was sold out at every store.

    Sold out, I tell you. At 4 major stores that carry the series.

    Not bad for what some are criticizing as ridiculous.

    Darn it! Now I have to wait for my 13 year old step-niece to finish her copy and loan it to me… (hiding my face, again).

    The author obviously did something right… Because it was popular enough to be turned into a movie – books and movie are all huge hits, no one can argue that, with it’s intended audience.

    I don’t think the movie really got the points across very well. Never mind the sometimes pathetic acting, although the lead vampire really looked the part – but again, how the heck can you cram hours and hours of detailed reading and insight into a 2 hour movie and expect it to be the same? Impossible.

    But bravo, I say. Everyone can’t be entertained by everything, but if it has brightened even some lives then it’s a job well done. Of course at my age (I have two young very young daughters) I am a little old to be sportin’ the Edward Cullen t-shirt some are writing about, but if I was 17… well,
    I still wouldn’t have sported the t-shirt but would have seriously entertained the thought of traveling to LA to offer the actor who plays the lead vampire a taste (or two, or three) of my neck!

  307. I’ve read two of the books, and watched the movie. Granted the series-written or on screen- may not win any great awards, but you know what? I’ve seen MUCH worse.

    And to those who think that Edward is abusive and controlling….oh please!

    I have been married to a man who got in to physical (and emotional) abuse, and who tried to control every aspect of my life. For a whole eighteen months. He even tried to strangle me once after I kicked him out.

    Having lived it, however briefly, I can say that I see absolutely zero common traits between Edward and my ex-husband.

    If you haven’t been there yourself, you don’t really have any business shouting to the world an opinion you have no clue about.

    Good grief, so what if teenage girls have a crush on a the guy?

    Personally, my biggest problem with the whole story is that the guy doesn’t have a pulse!

  308. Wow…I was a little upset after reading this review. I am always a little upset when someone writes a review about a movie that began as a book without reading the book first. I’m just warning you, spoiler alert.

    Please keep in mind I am 26 years old female, not a teenager. Also, I’m not a scifi nerd or any of that so my opinions are pretty average.

    The character Edward never toyed with Bella. Respectfully, if you read the books, especially the first half of Midnight Sun (Edward’s version), you would understand that Edward’s actions were actually him trying to keep himself from hurting Bella because he is a VAMPIRE, but having a hard time because he found his once in a lifetime true love. Sure it sounds a little cheesy, but the way the book is written it isn’t.

    Secondly, Edward falls in love with her mind before ANYTHING else. Initially, when the other male characters are objectifying her, he looks at her and doesn’t visually understand why she is the talk of the school. He doesn’t realize her true beauty until he begins to understand her. Also, you find out that Edward sneaks into her room at night to watch her sleep because it enables him to train himself to become used to the scent of her blood, he’s not a sick peeping Tom. The more he is around her, the better he is able to control the reaction he has to her blood.

    Also, it’s clearly stated in the books, as well as in the movie that Bella feels she doesn’t need to be protected because she can do that herself. Edward does indeed save her from the men that would have raped her, but when he asked why she didn’t run, she stated she was going to hit them instead.

    Bella DOES NOT fall in love within days, the story spans over multiple months, and it is in fact EDWARD that falls in love with Bella before she falls in love with him. She does not repress herself at all, it is in fact quite the opposite. The whole reason that Edward loves her is for her headstrong uniqueness, and the reason they can be together is because Bella pushes her beliefs onto him, convincing him that their relationship can work because of her quirky personality.

    As for Edward’s control, are you kidding me? If Edward was controlling Bella, they wouldn’t be together.

    And as for the SEX…I was severely disappointed with the fact that you are so concerned with your niece thinking this is the way love should be, but in the next breath you criticize the fact that Bella has to suppress her sexual appetite. Maybe instead of being so down on them not having sex, think of the fact that the book promotes the thought that you don’t have to have sex to be in a loving relationship. As for religious undertones, are you kidding me? Get over it. Not every piece of writing has to have undercurrents. It’s a great teen book, that was made into a really entertaining movie. Maybe it’s not your cup of tea, but for people that are in for a good read and a good flick in this genre, this is great.

    Again, this was all written respectfully, but you are only looking at it from a one-sided view.

  309. @harriet132: …would this also be your reaction if we were only saying positive things about the movie? Or would that be more pressing than the war in Iraq?

    In other words: hope you spend all of your time on the internet discussing serious business topics. Because otherwise, you’d look like a giant hypocrite.

  310. @serendipity: OH MY GOSH the first movie was SO off the book that I was somewhat confused reading the book again after seeing the movie a few times…I REALLY hope they do better following the book, but it seems some of the things from New Moon made it into Twilight…

  311. @itzel13: I felt that they could’ve found a better actress for Bella…she looked the part, but IMO she was horrible! Not even believable as a teenager with no real personality…she had NO emotion…her eyes were just blank…I think Jasper looked the part, but his hair was wrong…sorry all of you R-Pat fans, but I think the actor that played Emmett is much better looking…and he played the part well.

  312. @Kimbo Jones: Maybe, but would you let your significant other hang out with someone you KNEW was in love with them, knowing that person hates you and will do anything to separate you? I know I sure as hell wouldn’t.

  313. @sweetwhysper: I would trust that they are mature enough to make their own decisions about who is and is not appropriate for them to spend their time with.

  314. @ZaharaRaze: Thanks for the perspective. As I said, I am only commenting on the movie and the messages that I got from that. I am sure the book goes into far more details.

    Regarding sex, I am not endorsing Bella and Edward having sex until both of them were ready, as I would say is true about any relationship. What I am saying is that because of Edward’s ‘condition,’ Bella is forced to completely hold back all her sexual impulses for fear of him ‘losing control.’ Handing the control of your sexuality to someone else is something I have a problem with.

  315. Bella loves Edward right? Well if you love someone and they aren’t ‘ready’ or are incapable of having that physical relationship to protect you, would you be willing to look elsewhere for sexual satisfaction, knowing that he isn’t? Also knowing that he is repressing his sexuality at the same time, becase he wants it just as bad as she does, he just has more control over himself.

    He never told her “you can’t go get satisfied by someone else” He just implied that he wouldn’t be the one giving in on that issue. She still has control over her own sexuality because if she wanted to she could go to someone else for gratification, but she chooses to stay with Edward. I’m sure Mike would have been happy to oblige. But, like I said she chose to stay loyal to her man (er vampire) because she loves him not because of the sexual experiences she has with him.

  316. @bunnsm01: EXACTLY! It also shows it’s love, not just infatuation.

  317. @sweetwhysper: Love doesn’t happen in a week. Infatuation and lust happens in a week. Love takes time.

  318. @KC424: Abuse is not a “one size fits all” situation. Just because you don’t see traits in Edward that were in your abusive husband doesn’t mean he’s not abusive. It means your husband was a different kind of abusive.

    I was with someone for three years who was pretty much spot on like Edward Cullen. And trust me, it was abuse.

  319. @newageamazon: You’re right, it does. And in the book, it took time. The movie, not so much…so going with the fact that this thread is a review on the movie (taking many twists and turns), I have to agree from a movie stand point that she loved him too soon. From a book standpoint, it took her as long to fall in love with Edward as it took me to fall in love with my husband, much more realistic.

  320. Not that she needs it, but I feel I have to come to the defense of the original poster. Maybe if someone other than her says it, you all will hear. She’s commenting on the MOVIE not the BOOK. The fact that some of the lines laid throughout both the book and movie could be taken out of context by eager teens is not a stretch of the truth. I will not lump all teens into the same category, but I just watched a Robert/Kristin interview in which half a dozen teenager girls in the audience had signs asking Robert to marry them! Now, I will make the occasional joke about John Cena carrying me off, but, come on. It’s these actions that propel forward the argument that SOME young girls are not able to differentiate. For example, these same young girls weren’t lining up to marry Robert based on his acting in Harry Potter. Therefore, it’s Edward they’re after.. Edward, who is not real, and if he were is already otherwise involved. I’m sorry to the series of thirteen year old girls I seem to have offended with my discussion on the fourth book. Sorry for the offense, but I won’t back down from that. Whether it happens on a movie, in a book, at school, at the mall, or wherever, I feel that any time a teenager is faced with discussions of passionate pillow-ripping sex, abortion, and babies being ripped out of the womb by vampire teeth, these things merit discussion. Because the lines of reality are so easily blurred, things need to be discussed. Bella and Edward assumed they did not need protection during sex because they thought that vampires couldn’t have children. It doesn’t mention that they were both also virgins and completely worry free about STDs. I don’t even know how to hit the subject of the werewolves “imprinting” on the babies. I will give Meyer credit for making it fit well into her story line and trying to make it less creepy, but hello, pedofile. Even I have trouble swallowing that one. One things for sure, Meyer is sitting back on her big rich butt now. In line near the book section of Wal-Mart, I saw four girls run over and grab all four books off the shelves, and their unknowing mothers ready to pay for them all.

  321. I liked Twilight…both the movie and the book. Believe me there have been a lot of movies that haven’t been that great come out and this one I have to say it was good!!! I don’t know how people are saying it was terrible. I read the book and saw the movie and I don’t understand where people are coming from when they say they hate it and that it is BS. I’m tired of hearing that this book isn’t realistic, too. Come on!! It’s a book and movie – it’s not THAT far fetched for fiction.

  322. Everyone is hereby required to validate my opinion by agreeing with it, otherwise I’ll throw a hissy-fit.

  323. @babybott330: I think the reason for no protection is the fact that they were married. I know I don’t use protection with my husband, and unless they are trying NOT to get pregnant, I assume most others don’t either. Granted, not taking the possibility into effect would be an issue if it was in REAL life, but let’s face it…it’s a fiction story!

  324. @Ghost of MN: LOL enjoy the fit…unless you are in a room full of your exact clones, SOMEONE will disagree with you!

  325. @sweetwhysper: Try telling that to the Twilight fangirls I was mocking. Somehow I doubt they’ll listen.

  326. @serendipity: Your last sentence is sooo funny. But I guess you have to fight on the line to hand your neck…LOL!!

    OK. I didn’t see the movie yet!! I would love to see it because the actor who plays Edward is so handsome. I have to wait for the DVD now since the movie is no longer in the theater :<

    I do like the books (I am in the middle of book 3 now) . Heard some comments that book 4 is not that good. Hopefully it won’t be that bad! So far, I think the books are pretty good and interesting and attractive. They may not be classic but I guess the author is not meant for classic. It is a very successful story books as they have so much attraction that keep me reading non stop.

    Anyway. In tern of saying controlling, I think Edward didn’t really control Bella. He did keep her away from Jacob for some time but then he realized that was not right and he stopped that. I think that is very natural. If you don’t have the same reaction of stopping your lover to meet another person who is obviously in lover of he/she, I guess you don’t really in love. I am not saying it is right and Edward knew it was not right so he stopped soon. I think this is how a relationship improves and develops since both of them do not have much experience to handle things like that.

    This is a fantasy love story. Please just enjoy the books/movie (if you like it) and do not compare it to the reality that much… I don’t think people like to see Rose in Titanic thought of losing all the wealthy future before she went crazy in love of Jack..

  327. @Ghost of MN: Somehow, I think you’re right.

  328. Surely you Twilighters have something better to do than battle it out for over 300 comments? You know what would be awesome? If you went and did something productive. There are food banks that need volunteers, books that need reading, friends in Real Life that need hanging out with.

    Now, I can understand that Maria is an old hag, but I am also a teen like most of you so perhaps you’d be more interested in duking it out with somebody your own size and let Maria go back to sitting on her rocker and shouting at us to get off her lawn if you really insist on making hundreds of comments instead of moving on.

    If you come over to hang out with me and discuss Twilight you’re perfectly welcome over yonder that way on Teen Skepchick where I’ve had my shiny new Twilight post up for a few days (and it might be healthy for you to poke around and read about stuff other than Twilight). Perhaps you’ll find it more agreeable.

    Just, please, give Maria a break.

  329. @Elles: Thanks! Wait, old hag? What the…?

    GET OFF MY LAWN, PUNK!

    :)

  330. @Elles: old hag?

  331. @tckww2000: book 4 wasn’t as good as the other 3, I can’t explain because it would spoil it :)…but I had real issues reading it until I remember something that was said in book 3, then it wasn’t SO bad, since it’s wasn’t meant in the way my all too experienced mind took it…

  332. @ Kimbo
    I searched on the internet for some work research and came across this website and came across this thread.
    I dont not sit here and talk about a movie in such a het up way. And do you realize that news channels have websites??? So if you stop discussing a teen film then i m pretty sure the internet wouldn’t “die”. Your comments are hardly the only thing that goes on over the www.
    @newagamazon
    I just think its a bit sad that everyone seems to relate this book/film to a giant depressing drama in real life. they are fantasy! Also, why are you talking about love. Why dont you let these fictional characters fall in love in a week? Its abook! Let the magic be! And i cant say i really fancy being a giant. I like my size.
    I agree with ZaharaHaze!

  333. @harriet132: You’re right, we had no right to march onto those Twilight forums with our torches blazing demanding they burn all copies of those books and from here on out only commit themselves to reading Margaret Atwood and other authors we, the feminist elite, deem appropriate…

    …oh wait. All anyone here has done is post something to the internet that people disagreed with, dissecting it in a manner we find interesting. And expressing the opinion that the ideals reflected in these books, even if it is fantasy, are not exactly pro-woman. Examining fantasy and sci-fi in pop culture, be it Star Wars, Buffy, Twilight or what-have-you, is an exercise in seeing what people relate to…and in this case we’re seeing young women relate strongly enough to a fantasy relationship to defend it rabidly and unquestioningly.

    And trust me, I’ve seen defenses of these books that came down to threats of bodily harm and death. Hell, even if you read some of the defenses of Twilight here they almost read as if these “fantasy” characters are so real to them…and trust me, it’s not due to Smeyer’s skill as a writer. So…why are we the only ones “taking it too far?”

  334. @harriet132: Wow. That was just complete nonsense wrapped in fallacy. Congratulations you’ve made me speechless.

    @ Everyone else: Can we put a moratorium on “lighten up” and “it’s just a book/movie”. I think we’re all pretty much intelligent enough to realize that, thanks. If you don’t want to discuss it, bugger off. Clearly some people do want to discuss it, so let them.

  335. @Kimbo Jones: Okay, but DO NOT mock my Twilight merchandise and rings that say “I dream about being with you forever”, nor is anybody to mock the Twilight Edward Body Shimmer.

    Mocking the body shimmer is right out. I’ll have none of that.

    *makes threats of bodily harm and death to anyone who dares mock my Twilight merchandise*

  336. To book reviewers criticizing the Twilight books: It is especially reflective of your poor judgement as a book reviewer when you ridicule an international bestseller.

    When a book or series becomes an international bestseller it is a screaming sign by your audience that the book you ridicule is the very type of book they wish to see more of.

    Wake up.

  337. ok yes people have thier own opinions on how the Twilight series is bad, but it is a fantasy. It’s not gonna hurt America just because of how it draws attention to the readers or because of theres vampires and because theres a girl who just happened to fall in love with one!
    I now about the movie and i hate how the made the movie longer by adding extra things that gives the parents who are watching this movie without reading the books the wrong idea. If u just read the books then you would understand the whole thing better than just goign ahead and watching the movie.
    Thta’s what happened to me when watching the Harry Potter movies. Once you start reading the book instead of watching the movie then you relize that the movie was horrible compared to the book!
    I’m not forcing anyone to read the book ! I’m just saying that it’s not going to hurt america. Young people just like reading the books because of the adventure that happens just to keep Edward and Bella together. I know its kind of dumb to you guys, but it’s what some of your children are reading if you have any so atleast try to show them that you have a little bit of interest instead of critizing how they’re reading trash.

  338. Ok, tckww2000, you are incredibly wrooong I have read all four books and must say that the third is the worst and the fourth is the best. Oh and Twilight is playing in EVERY theatre gosh darnit! They won’t take it out for a while cause it’s paying so much money! So just look harder!!

  339. sweetwhysper, you’re insane!!! Book 4 is better because it finally shows B& E (Bella and Edward to clarify) in a light that moreso shows them in love with one another. Book 3 does this too at the end but other than that, the first half is them going around saying “Who’s doing this? Who’s doing this?” and the second half is “We’re gonna fight. We’re gonna fight.” and when they get to the fighting it is repulsively descriptive. So, the first book was so-so; the second, pretty good; the third was just not might cup of tea; and the fourth one had me begging for more. Other than that, there is just not much for me to say other than yesterday I was in Barnes & Noble and I told one mother not to get it for her TEN YEAR OLD SON and another mom was notified by myself that she did not have to spend OVER TWENTY DOLLARS ON THE THIRD AND FOURTH BOOK EACH because they were in Walmart for probably less. Do me a favor people pleeeaaasssseee and if MY books ever get published, check em out. One of my dreams actually is to be the next Stephenie Meyer or J.K. Rowling (who is infinitely better). I DO NOT FOCUS ON VAMPIRES BECAUSE THEY SERIOUSLY BORE ME TO INSANITY ( except for the Undead Series which is so funny, I forget how sick of vamps and w.wolves I really am).

    Three more things:
    1) A coven is technically defined as A GROUP OF THIRTEEN WITCHES

    2) Robert Pattinson is the ugliest being I have ever seen (plus he does not wash his hair or comb it ewww *shudder shudder*)

    3) Does anyone know why this font REMINDS me of Twilight because it’s scaring me (okay, not really but it is seriously creeping me out.).

  340. Geese sweetwhysper, what was said in book three that related to book 4 (and seems to have disturbed you)?

  341. For the record I did not mean Geese like Goose; I meant Geese like “Geese Louise!!” :)

  342. Someone PLEASE answer me!!! I’m dying over here with no communication. Maybe I’ll get back to MY books. Hmmm….

  343. @lal: What sort of logic is that? Loads of people read it, therefore it’s a great book?

    Ever heard of a book called Mein Kampf. I’m willing to bet that that was popular in Germany during a certain time period too.

    There are plenty of popular things that are complete rubbish.

  344. @Teen_Writer114: Robert Pattinson isn’t ugly!

    Well, some of the pictures I’ve seen of him makes him look like a creeper, but he was pretty hot in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire.

  345. @Elles: For some reason the pale, thin-lipped thing only works for me when it’s David Tennant.

  346. @lal:
    To book reviewers criticizing the Twilight books: It is especially reflective of your poor judgement as a book reviewer when you ridicule an international bestseller.

    When a book or series becomes an international bestseller it is a screaming sign by your audience that the book you ridicule is the very type of book they wish to see more of.

    “What’s right is not always popular, what’s popular is not always right”

  347. Wow! Way to stir the pot, masala_skeptic! For your next trick, you should go after some anime thing and get the Legions of Catgirls after you.

    I just feel the need to make a simple correction: Maria isn’t, by any stretch of the imagination, an “old hag.” That is shameful and disgusting, and you should apologize tootsuite!

    Maria is in no way, shape, or form, an “old hag.” She is an ancient crone. Please don’t get confused again.

  348. @Cleon: Don’t make me put m teeth in and come after you, whelp!

  349. @Masala Skeptic: Just don’t trip over your walker again, ok? Last time I laughed so hard I passed out.

  350. elles, of COURSE he was hot in HP4!! He was on FIRE!!!! It’s just in real life and in Twilight that he is uuuuuuuuggggggllllllyyyyyy!!!!!

  351. i have to say that he wasn’t attracted to her for her looks, but because he couldn’t read her mind. It wasn’t because he was shallow.

  352. UPDATE ON STEPHENIE MEYER’S ALMOST PLAGUREISM!!!!!!

    ISABELLA IS DERIVED FROM ELIZABETH!!!!!

    ELIZABETH IS THE MAIN CHARACHTER OF THE UNDEAD SERIES AND WE ALL KNOW WHO ISABELLA IS!!!

    GO MJD!!!!!! GO GO MJD!!!!

    MJD IS MARY JANICE DAVIDSON FOR THOSE OF YOU WHO DON’T KNOW!!!!

  353. @jolly atom:

    i have to say that he wasn’t attracted to her for her looks, but because he couldn’t read her mind. It wasn’t because he was shallow.

    An interesting point. Makes him sound even more like a controlling megalomaniac.

    “I can have the innermost thoughts of everyone around me except…. HER! I must have her. I wonder if we have similar hopes, dreams, or interests? Ah, who cares, she smells like bacon marinated in Ivory soap.”

    How embarrassing for him when he discovered she didn’t have much of a personality, but by then he was sort of committed.

    HINT TO VAMPIRES TROLLING FOR DATES: Don’t let “I’m a vampire” be your go-to line after one date. It may distract your target from those long stares (although not in Bella’s case – YMMV), but if it doesn’t go over well, things will get awkward. Maybe start with “I really like Coldplay” and build up.

    Also — resist signing up on classmates.com and stay away from reunions.

    Which reminds me — do these vampires have reflections? I don’t mean deep thoughts (although that too) but like in mirrors?

  354. Im sorry to dissagree but i loved the movie and i love the books just as much. Im 17 and i see nothing wrong with the way Bella was treated because it was her decision to love him even after her told her to avoid him. There are so many people i know that love it so i dont understand how you people can judge it so quickly…

  355. I agree completely with your review. I was dragged to this film by my 13 year old daughter and very nearly walked out. I would have but I reached the part about glittery vamps in sunlight and got a fit of the giggles. I was not alone in the theatre with my laughter at this very serious and poignant moment of teen angst.

    Should have seen Inkheart instead.

  356. @phlebas: I don’t know. If a vampire was trying to chat me up and she said “I really like Coldplay”, I’d wonder if that was a euphemism for some sort of undead kink. Still, better than Death Cab for Cutie.

  357. @Teen_Writer114: I actually love all the books, the last isn’t my favorite because of the all natural thing that happens with Jacob…it creeps me out. I won’t say what since I know there are people that want to read the books…I am on my second time through the series, even reading the leaked copy of Midnight Sun Stephenie has posted on her website. If it weren’t for the AGE of what I referred to above, the book would’ve been awesome. I do understand why she wrote it that way, but I just can’t get over my RL views on that…OH and btw I know what B & E is…I AM a Twilight fan slightly obsessed with the series…and Thanks!

  358. @Teen_Writer114: oh lol I forgot to touch on your #2…R. Pat is FAR from the God people make him out to be, but he’s not ugly (IMO) and he was one of the best actors in the film (sadly). I think the best lookin of them all is the one that played Emmett…

  359. @Teen_Writer114: lol I went home for the day…didn’t intentionally leave you hangin! and it’s geeze ;)

  360. not to change the subject too much, but what do all of you that didn’t like the movie think about them starting filming New Moon in March & continuing straight through with Eclipse?

    Hopefully, the acting by a certain lead actress is less stiff & wooden. As far as Emmett’s looks go- he looks just like the “stupid” jocks that I avoided back in high school. -I’m not saying that Emmett is stupid, I’m just saying that looks aren’t everything.

  361. @Kimbo Jones:Buffy sort of went from strong teenage girl dealing with crazy circumstances on top of normal teenage stuff, to whiny basket-case reveling in Spike’s abuse. Then there was the whole magic = drugs sledgehammer to the face that was season 6.

    Late to the discussion, but hey:
    I think what’s really wrong with the later Buffy seasons is that Joss Whedon was off to do “Angel” by then, and Marti Noxon basically just fucked up the whole storyline to such an extent Joss had to come back and try to fix it all in the last season.

    Although that might not be what really happened …

  362. @bunnsm01:

    Don’t they need a director and a script before they can commit to a shooting schedule?

    I know they do in your more traditional “written” kind of stories. I just figured things like this needed at least something scribbled on the back of an envelope and someone to shout “cut!” Even Transformers had people listed as “screenwriters.”

  363. @exarch:

    Lighten up, it’s just a TV show.

    :)

    Something was kind of off the last couple of seasons of Buffy. I kind of thought it was just me, because I was so disappointed in SMG turning into this bony wastrel with nothing but sharp edges. But that’s my inner pig talking.

    Still… even Buffy at its Dawn-whiny worst had proper stay-outta-the-sun-and-no-crosses-please vampires.

  364. @phlebas:

    from what I’ve read/heard they have Chris Weitz directing (The Golden Compass, American Pie) & the same lady that wrote the script for Twilight is supposedly writing it for New Moon & Eclipse. What I haven’t heard is wether or not they are keeping Taylor Lautner or recasting his role.

    I’m hoping that the dialogue is better in New Moon then it was in Twilight. I think part of why the acting was wooden was because it seemed like the dialogue was almost word for word what they said in the book-which is good don’t get me wrong but it played out much nicer in my head then what the actors portrayed.

    I was dissapointed with the first movie I hope that with a new director the next two movies will be more up to my expectations in comparison with the books.

  365. http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/

    If anyone wants to look up actual news on the movies or books try this site. It is Stephanie Meyers only official site aside from her myspace page:

    http://www.myspace.com/stephenie_meyer.

  366. @bunnsm01:

    Ah, ok. I hadn’t heard they’d picked a director, but I see him listed on IMDB, so it must be true. And if they don’t bring Shark Boy back, my niece is going to be homicidal — to her, that guy was the real eye candy. He’s listed on IMDB too tho.

    Anyway, I appear to break ranks yet again with the Twilighters in that I thought the movie, for all its flaws, was better than the book. The first half or more of the book was one long, whined internal monologue, which then transformed into an awkward attempt to make a 100+ year old undead creature of the night talk like a lovesick teenager.

  367. Yes, my friends are all very ticked at me for saying that the movie was better. But HEY!!! The movie actually seemed to have a basis for them to fall in love unlike the book. Wait isn’t the book supposed to be the “real” one?

  368. Hey, guess what I said in my oratory for my Debate class:
    “The ever-so-popular Twilight Saga subtley suggests the idea of sex to teens by the pursuits of the main charachter Isabella Swan to bed her boyfriend Edward Cullen/ Masen. And by the by he doesn’t exactly try to discourage her when he attempts to show her the many advantages a bed can have. And then there are the not so subtle advances of the werewolf Jacob Black to try and gain the affections of Isabella. And it doesn’t help that Stephenie Meyer lets us know that they have to strap their clothes to the back of their legs because they are naked in their muscular wolf forms. And if you don’t think that’s bad, then you might want to take into account that they broke the bed frame when they finally did have sex. Swan was eighteen.

    My friends were so incredibly mad at me for that.

    My solution:
    Smirk in their faces.

    :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

    SO HA TO ALL YOU TWILIGHTERS!!!
    HA! I SAY
    HA!!!!

  369. - your nemesis,
    Teen_Writer114

  370. “Yes, my friends are all very ticked at me for saying that the movie was better. But HEY!!! The movie actually seemed to have a basis for them to fall in love unlike the book. Wait isn’t the book supposed to be the “real” one?”

    Makes you think, doesn’t it?

  371. @Teen_Writer114:

    I’m sorry but, you said that the movie actually seemed to have a basis for E&B to fall in love, yet all you are talking about is sex. Where is your “debate” about the basis of their love? Also, everything that is in the movie is in the book (duh!, it originated from the book). Have you actually read the books?

  372. I do believe the talk about the author of twilight stealing everything from this undead series everyone is apparenlty talking about is false. Well, at least the Isabella name thing. I’m almost positive Stephenie Meyer named the character after a family member or something like that. I can’t be sure but for some reason I remember reading that somewhere.

    As for the claims that the movie was better than the book, well, I veyr much disagree with that. In the books their relationship had lighter points and was even funny at some points. The movie portrayed their relationship as nothing more than life or death moments. The first book is probably my favorite. The second book was good but my favorite character, Edward, wasn’t in it very much. The third book was better than the second even if Edward is apparently oh so controlling to Bella. (cue dramatic eyeroll) The fourth book went to a place I had not anticipated it would go but it was good. I still can’t decide how much I like it though.

  373. bunnsm01, I have read the books. That part was for my oratory about how things we might not think , are telling us that sex is ok.

  374. funnyface1201, if you have not read the undead series, you could not truly see the amount of almost plagureism there is. The name Isabella being derived from Elizabeth is just something I found recently on my fav website EVER for names. But if you say she named her charachter after a family member then whatevs. That was merely one detail of my supporting evidence. The Undead Series provides sooooo much more. And I will not listen to your OPINIONS of weather or not this IS almost plagureism until you have read at least the first six books of the Undead Series. Until then, you cannot even claim to kknow what you are talking about.

  375. Everyone has their opinion on comparing novels to their movies. This certain series of a strikingly amusing first movie was brought to my attention through several media advertisments. Obviously they didn’t go wrong in that aspect.

    I’ve read all the books, I’ve watched the movie 3 times, and listened to several fan meetings and promotional tours. In my opinion, this Vampire/Werewolf /Human series of TEENAGE books was great.

    Stephanie Meyer has created an all new empire for preteens, teens and young adults around the WORLD! Yes, it has gone global. I’ve done my research! :D The books are enticing and I loved every chapter, as I look forward to the next book and movie. These books and movie are meant for preteens, teens and young adults as I had previously mentioned around the world; and whom are swooning over the Cullen Clan as we type. The parents who attend the matinees don’t have to enjoy it, we all have different tastes. Just sit through it, and nod your head when your boys and girls are telling you how much they enjoyed you taking them on a night out to the movies.

    With all that said, I think we hereby stand down of our lashful remarks and let the teenagers stick it out till the last book of the series is on the shelf and the last movie is in theaters for our eyes to gawk and stare at the ever-so gorgeous couple we all wish to be- Edward and Bella

  376. @Teen_Writer114: Can’t get a comparison of plot summaries from the books?

  377. Teen writer: I would like to first and foremost say that attacking me in that way is petty and childish. I’d also like to point out the fact that all I said was the Isabella thing was false. I’m not going to read a series so I can prove you wrong. Obvioulsy the writer of Twilight could not have that much plagureism in them otherwise they wouldn’t have been published. I will state my opinions if I want to and you don’t have to read them or much less have comment to say back. People are getting rude and vicious over this whole Twilight thing. So what? You think she stole a few ideas from some other author, I don’t care. So what, some of you think Edward is “controlling” and “abusive”, you’re wrong, in my opinion. These are all opinions and no one has any right to say anything rude or negative about another person’s opinion. You say the ideas are stolen from this undead series, if the author isn’t kicking up dirt, maybe you shouldn’t either. Do you actually know the definiton of plagureism or do you just like throwing around big words?

  378. @starshiner_3: I’m sorry, but I don’t think that that addresses the main objection at all. Sure loads of teens like it and it appeals to them, but it also idealizes stalkerish behaviour and naivety. That’s exactly the problem.

    It gives a poor image to and of teen girls which is why I, as a teen, mostly agree with the content of this post. Bella is no Hermione Granger.

    Teens can do better.

  379. @funnyface1201:

    Jumping in to say that plagiarism is not always as easily caught as you might think. And it’s harder to catch when it’s not direct passages that are copied, but ideas and themes.

    There is evidence that Stephenie Meyer borrowed ideas from other vampire-based works, not just the series Teen-Writer is talking about. There’s comparisons that can be drawn to Charlene Harris’ Southern Vampire novels, Christopher Pike’s The Last Vampire series and even Angel: the Series. It might not be plagiarism, but there are a lot of things that Smeyer did that aren’t as unusual or creative as much of her fanbase might believe they are.

    This doesn’t take away from your enjoyment of the books, but they aren’t literary genius.

    As for your opinions of Edward not being controlling: while some people might find a significant other taking their car apart in order to prevent them from seeing their friend romantic, many of us find it, I don’t know, controlling.

  380. Surely she’s the only one who came up with the sparkly vampires bit?

  381. Okay, so she stole a few ideas. That’s what lots of authors do. Have you ever read a mystery novel? Ninety percent of them have the same basic plot line. Big evil bad guy, girl gets roped in, girl falls in love with guy, evil bad guy is defeated, boy and girl live happily ever after. None of them are completely original works. All authors steal something frome someone else. That is not plagureism, it is merely taking a few ideas and putting them into your own story line.

    And I’m getting frustrated with this controlling bit. I’ve admitted he has his moments but does no one remember the part of the book where he stops being that way and realizes she was right? I’m pretty sure everyone is missing out on that part. And yes, I would have done the exact same. Jacob is trippy dippy in love with Bella, hates Edward, and would stop at nothing to break them up. Add on top of it that Edward believes werewolves to be dangerous if they’re angered, which the author clearly shows how they can be (for examply Emily and when Paul nearly attacks Bella) and he reacted in a completely sane way. He was trying to protect what he cared about and at the same time trying to keep from losing her again. I would have stopped at nothing to keep a guy from a girl like that and if that makes me controlling so be it. I’m not going to be “okay” with my boyfriend hanging out with some chick who is in love with him, like apparently everyone else is. It’s positively ridiculous to just be like, okay, you can see the girl who is in love with you and wants to break us up because she’s hurting. Yeah, not going to happen. And I never said it is romantic. I merely said that it’s understandable. But if you feel that you should just be okay with your man hanging out with another woman who is in love with him, fine by me. I’m going to take the “controlling” route.

    And as for the poor image to teenage girls because she’s no Hermione Granger, well that’s because Hermione Granger is not exactly what teenage girls are really like. Most teenage girls are like Bella. Stephenie Meyer portrays a real life seventeen year old girl. I mean, I know I behaved more like Bella than Hermione and that’s not because of the books I read. It’s because I was a teenage girl, yeah, I know, real shocker folks.

  382. @funnyface1201: I’m going to say this one more time: this thread is about THE MOVIE.

  383. @funnyface1201: This is about the movie, not the book. Please keep that in mind when you read my original post. I’ve never read the books. And, after reading 382 comments, I think I will pass on ever reading them. :)

    I was a teenage girl too and I’ll admit I definitely relate more to Hermione than to Bella. That’s because Hermione had a personality. Bella is a blank slate, which was, apparently, intentional on Meyers’ part.

  384. @funnyface1201:

    I’m not going to be “okay” with my boyfriend hanging out with some chick who is in love with him, like apparently everyone else is. It’s positively ridiculous to just be like, okay, you can see the girl who is in love with you and wants to break us up because she’s hurting. Yeah, not going to happen. And I never said it is romantic. I merely said that it’s understandable. But if you feel that you should just be okay with your man hanging out with another woman who is in love with him, fine by me. I’m going to take the “controlling” route.

    And with that I dig up an ‘ol quote from Richard Dawkins:

    I’m not denying the power of sexual jealousy. It is ubiquitous if not universal. I’m just wondering aloud why we all accept it so readily, without even thinking about it. And why don’t we all admire — as I increasingly do — those rare free spirits confident enough to rise above jealousy, stop fretting about who is “cheating on” whom, and tell the green-eyed monster to go jump in the lake?

  385. I’m merely responding to other people’s comments, not the actual thread. So complain to all the other whiners here too, not just me. Everyone else were the ones to bring up the book.

    As for those who think Bella has no personality, obviously you didn’t read the books. In the movie her personality may be a little dry but she clearly has a lot more personality in the books. I guess I lived a little bit more as a teenager tahn those who relate to Hermione. I wasn’t perfect. I got in trouble. I did stupid things. Hermione’s entire character is all about books. Sure, she’s a great role model if you want your kids to be sort of loseresque. Plus, she was rather controlling to Ron and Harry, so mull over that one for a little bit. And I’m not going to “rise above jealousy” because it’s an emotion. Sorry, guess I’m just an emotional person. Apparenlty no one here ever experiences those kinds of emotions. My bad.

  386. I’m sorry. I was just in one of my “I rock you suck.” moods. Which suck. I hate them! Ugh!

  387. Also, EDWARD DID STOP WITH THE WHOLE “NOT LETTING BELLA NEAR JACOB” THING!!!!!!!

  388. Oh, and, she has a personality…. It’s just an extremely annoying, whiny one.

  389. @funnyface1201: Sorry, I sort of expected people to back up their statements with rational argument if they wanted to be taken seriously.

    Oh, wait! I’m talking to a member of Homo sapiens on the Internet! Sorry. My mistake. Since this is Skepchick I just sort of got spoiled by people who typed something other than mindless drivel.

  390. @funnyface1201: Once again, I would trust “my man” to be loyal and not hurt me. But obviously, Edward doesn’t trust Bella, after all, he spends time spying on her, having Alice spy on her, telling her what to do, and when she calls him on it all he does is say “I’m sorry, you’re right,” and KEEPS ON DOING THE SAME THINGS.

    Controlling is not respecting your girlfriend/wife’s decision to have or not have a baby, because it comes down to being her body. You do not go to her friend that you fought to keep her from seeing and say “If you get her to abort, you can knock her up again!” Edward chooses the colleges Bella applies to, invites Jacob to the wedding after Bella says she thinks it would hurt too much (which, way to rub it in, asshole), and then names their daughter (horribly) while Bella is asleep.

    But as many people have said, and I have been pretty lax about myself, this is about the movie, not the books. So maybe in the movie versions of these books, Edward will not take apart Bella’s car, change his actions rather than just apologize to her, and let her live her own damn life. He might also hump a pie, but I’m not holding my breath.

  391. @funnyface1201: Or you could simply look for role models for your kids somewhere besides fictional books. :/

  392. @Teen_Writer114: Easy with the caps, there! I suspect you know how to write well – remember, we’re trying to keep the level of discourse a bit elevated here. Trying.

  393. @Masala Skeptic: I think that’s a smokescreen. “Your character sucks and here’s why.” “What? Oh I totally did that on purpose….yeah.”

  394. @Elles: I see your point. But I’m not a conformist, I’m sticking to my opinion. There are several smart girls and boys out there. I think for the most part they understand what happens in movies and books is only fantasy and is not likely to happen in every single one of their lives as it does in the book/movie. Naivety, has been around for like, ever! All of us adults have been naive at least one point in time, and it’s all a part of growing up. As for the stalkerish behavior, I agree, it is not something that should be portrayed to teens as ‘okay’. I myself, had become a victim to ‘stalkerish acts’ when I was in high school going after a boy I liked. But just as in the movie it was innocent. Catherine Hardewicke’s(Director of Twilight: The Movie) intentions could possibly have meant to portray the characters innocence entirely. It’s only a movie. It never comes right out and says, “Be a stalker”. You may call me naive to the reality of things, but I believe teens are smarter than that. You can’t change the whole world at once, you can’t tackle every teenager and tell them to change the way they act, just because they enjoy watching an intrigueing film that never intended to promote unhealthy behaviors.

  395. newageamazon -
    For one thing, Bella had said earlier that if the baby was a girl she would want it to be named Renesmee. But I will concede to you that the whole thing with him telling Jacob to get Bella to abort and then “she can have puppies” is pretty…um…yeah…. And I was screaming at him the whole time I was reading that scene. I mean, helloooooo? The whole thing is that it’s HER baby inside her and she’ll do anything to protect it because she loves it already. But in all fairness he was only trying to save someone he cared about. And as for inviting Jacob to the wedding, well he knew it would make Bella happy. *sigh* If only the three of them could learn which topics are best to avoid with which of the others.

  396. Rebecca,
    Part of the capitalizations are because I can’t figure out how to use italics on this website; the other half is just because I want people to read it.
    yours,
    The Ginormous Attention Hog

    *and yes, ginormous is a word, it’s in the dictionary.*

  397. @Teen_Writer114: Ha, fair enough! Here’s helpful info on commenting on Skepchick, including how to do italics:
    http://skepchick.org/blog/?page_id=2809

  398. @ elles – what do you mean by “Can’t get a comparison of plot summaries from the books?”

  399. Thanks!!! You rock Rebecca!!!

  400. Am I the only one logged on now?

  401. why do people think Twiligth is hurting America? that’s all i want to know!

  402. funnyface1201 “Do you actually know the definiton of plagureism or do you just like throwing around big words?” Is this really neccessary? I do know the definition of plagureism especially since my teachers have stressed it every year since the second grade!! Yeesh!!! And by the way, I have repeatedly said “ALMOST plagureism” because she went around it by changing the names!!! That is, if my hypothesis is correct.

  403. Oh, and if I were to throw words around I’d do it like Dumbledore, “Nitwit, Blubber, Odment, Tweak” !!!!!

  404. itzel13 Alas, it does hurt America but that includes it in one of the largest categories ever to demolish the world. Oh wait, that is the category, only just America, not the world. Wait! Hasn’t it been pointed out time and time again that the books have gone global?

  405. Slightly randomish question: has anyone else noticed that certain pictures of Stephenie Meyer look like Sandra Bullock? Just asking.
    I think so.
    Yep.
    Definitely.
    Uh huh.

  406. @itzel13: I suppose I can conclude that you haven’t read all of the readers comments. If you haven’t, I advise you do so now if you insist joining in. :D Just a forewarning, I’m a new user, but I’ve read comments, and people get vicious!

  407. @itzel13: The answer lies 402 comments above… and you might want to go to this url too:

    http://skepchick.org/teen/?p=571

  408. starshiner_3 You ain’t kiddin’.

  409. @ elles – again, what do you mean by “Can’t get a comparison of plot summaries from the books?”

  410. i have read most of the comments. but just because it has just a few things some people dont like, dosnt mean it is hurting america.
    here are some of the reasons its not.

    its a fantasy
    not real
    vampires arent real
    warewolves arent real
    i hope that helped poeple understand the definition of how its NOT real!

  411. @Teen_Writer114: I mean just cite a few examples of how the plot summaries for the Twilight Saga are the same for that other series.

  412. @itzel13: Here’s a one-word refutation:

    Impressionable.

    Teenagers are impressionable. They see what’s being idealized and they try to get to that ideal. See anorexia.

    Of course, some girls can think for themselves and choose not to aspire to the level of Bella and as long as they do that it’s fine.

    But it’s painfully clear that the masses are incapable of that level of thought if they can’t even see the major flaws in the books.

    I have no problem with reading Lolita. I don’t think that’ll increase the incidence of statutory rape as long as the girl can recognise that Humbert Humbert is a monster.

    And if you don’t know what Lolita is then go to Wikipedia. There are some things which you don’t want to Google.

  413. @itzel13: Blunt and to the point indeed. I agree. to all 5 points there. I just put it into more words because there are over-analyzers commenting. I who of which is not one of them. I just talk to much. I don’t think it’s hurting America either. And why specifically America?, why is H.P. series any different? It’s just a gosh-darn book people! It’s just a movie too!

  414. Apparently you haven’t read Eclipse with your eyes open because he clearly says he’s no longer going to keep her away from Jacob. All he asks is that he gets to drive her to the territory line. He doesn’t like it but he does give in. So, yes he stops the whole you can’t see Jacob thing. During the whole fourth book drama where Bella is pregnant, he wants to save her life! That’s why he wants that kid out of her. It’s killing her. He was a desperate person. He would have let her do anything, including sleep with Jacob if it would have kept her alive. That’s how much he cared. That’s not controlling. In the end, did she not end up having this child???? I’m pretty sure she did and SHE was the one that named the baby, not Edward. Read the book before you start bashing it. In the end, she gets what she wants. She gets to be a vampire, which Edward had been against. She gets to have the child, which Edward had been against. She got to remain very close friends with Jacob, which Edward had been against…is anyone else seeing a pattern here?

    I’m also pretty sure the author had to change more than just the names. Did the vampires in this other series sparkle in sunlight? Did they have vegetarian diets? Did they get someone knocked up? Was the Volturri an important role in these books? Could they come out in the sunlight at all? Did some of the vampires carry on special abilities? Was there a vamp/human wedding? Was the main character a human who became a vampire? Was there a freaky deaky love triangle? What was the only way to kill a vampire in these series? I honestly don’t know the answers to these quetions but if many of those differ from Twilight, chances are it’s not plagureism in any form, no matter how abstract the term may be for some. Did she also “plagureize her book The Host? Was that also not an original thought? And don’t throw in nay Invasion of the Body Snatchers crap because I’ve read both books and I find a few similarites but not too many.

  415. No one here is saying that reading/watching Twilight will make you run out and rip out people’s jugulars or run around naked screaming you’re a wolf. Just like no one is saying that reading/watching Harry Potter would draw you into Satanism, watching Star Wars would make you think you could handle lasers while blindfolded or watching Star Trek will make you have sex with green alien women.

  416. @starshiner_3:

    Oh for crying … the ‘hurting America’ thing is just a phrase. It’s actually blatantly stolen from Jon Stewart’s appearance on Crossfire a few years ago. I guess you would call it plaguerizzed even. (For the record – it’s plagiarized. No ‘u’s involved) :)

    The concerns I have are related to how it impacts young women who are impressionable and who are really the future of this country (and all the other countries where this book has such a huge fan base). That’s my only point. Give a bad impression about relationships to a young woman and, if it sticks (which it may or may not, I agree), it can hurt her. In the long run and with a huge proportion of young women being impacted, it will hurt the country.

    But mostly, I was stealing from Jon Stewart. :)

  417. @Masala Skeptic: Come to think of it, Twilight would have been so much better with Stephen Colbert playing Edward. I might actually pay to see it at that point.

  418. plagiarize

    That is all.

  419. funnyface1201:
    I totally agree with everything you are saying. In more ways then others, Bella is the one who is leading the whole books. She is controlling everyone. These books are like no other books in the world and no other books could compare to them.

  420. @Masala Skeptic: You beat me! :)

  421. @Kimbo Jones: Spelling Nerd High Five! Woo hoo!

  422. Sorry, I can’t spell to save my life. And thank you…at least someone agrees with me about something!

  423. @Masala Skeptic: Pshtt. Yeah Yeah.. So these 400+ comments and blog above are just something to keep us analysts busy at home instead of actually telling our teens not to conform to the patterns of this world. It’s not just the media that may give ideas to them. No. We’re all just here biting each others heads off, to sugarcoat it.

  424. listen because this is the truth:

    TWILIGHT HATERS ARE ONLY PEOPLE WHO HAVEN’T READ THE BOOK, OR FIND SOME RIDICULOUS FLAW IN THEM LIKE SEX CONTENT, ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP, FEMINISM, OR OTHER STUPID CRAP THAT THEY WOULDN’T FIND IF THEY GAME THE BOOK A REAL CHANCE!!!

  425. @TwilightxSagaxLover: I have to believe that this comment is a joke because if someone exists who would call “abusive relationship” a “ridiculous flaw” in this context, the world is soon to implode.

  426. @Kimbo Jones: I’m with you on that one.

  427. I’m pretty sure she was just saying that people were coming up with flaws in the books that weren’t really there. I’m sure she’s not saying that an abusive relationship would be a ridiculous flaw, or at least I hope she’s not. That would be a rather scary thought.

  428. @sethmanapio:

    And okay what is wrong with someone watching you sleep?

    Seth, you seemed to miss the point. With the 4 woman you lived with (or any woman for that matter), did you break into their house, and just stand at the end of their beds watching them sleep?

    @TwilightxSagaxLover:

    Writing in all caps doesn’t help your case, also would be nice to proofread your comments.

  429. @starshiner_3: I’m so confused. Really, I am. How does liking Twilight have anything to do with non-conformism?

    Last I checked there are massive droves of Twilight fans and just a handful of us dissenters who may or may not think it’s detrimental to the development of teenagers.

    I think the book sucks, but I’m not telling other people that they have to agree with me on that. Non-conformism and freethought is all well and good, but that doesn’t mean you can’t have a healthy intellectual exchange about the ideals that are presented in the book and whether or not they’re anything to aspire towards.

  430. Guys, really. My post.

    http://skepchick.org/teen/?p=571

    Right now.

    http://skepchick.org/teen/?p=571

    Go.

    http://skepchick.org/teen/?p=571

    Let Maria take a nap or something. Read that. I’d like feedback.

  431. Regardless of the actual content of the book or movie, what concerns me (and the only reason I’m still here) is that to the statement “Edward is abusive towards Bella” there has been the response “it’s ok because he’s just jealous and he cares about her”. That scares the crap out of me and I will comment on that until my fingers are sore. The response “that doesn’t actually happen and here’s why” I’m fine with (if true). But “they love each other” = not a good reason.

    On conformism: Not doing something because it’s popular can be as dumb as doing something because it is popular. It just depends on what it is.

  432. This thread is insane in the membrane. And it has successfully dissuaded me from ever wanting to read the Twilight series. ever.

    @starshiner_3: Generally we’re very civil round these parts. We just get cranky when provoked. Having read this thread (for the most part, I value my neurons too much to subject myself to the whole thing) most of the regulars round these parts have done well holding their tongues. I think you mistake poking hole in arguments with personal attacks. I do not speak for all the n00bs here (welcome! come for the Twilight, stay for the booze and boobs!), just the regulars.

  433. @Elles: Teens use media to rule their life. Whether they want to or not. In several ways, relationships and basic routines. By doing the same things that characters do in books or movies, teens show their friends interest in it and their friends show their friends how to do the same thing, so on and so forth. That’s what I meant by conforming. They shouldn’t do what their friends do just because their friends saw it in a movie and it makes it cool. Not all teens do but it’s just as easy to fall victim to, as other things media promotes.

  434. I will also type until my fingers are broken that abusive is not the right term for their relationship. If it were, then yes all those stupid reasons behind it would be totally absurd

  435. @starshiner_3: Yes… telling teens not to conform is what’s being done over yonder that way on Teen Skepchick.

  436. @LOLkate: I see what you mean. I’m not one to maliciously attack someone because of their opinions. I think I may just end my commenting for this blog here and stick to actually letting the teens do what the heck they want cause we all know that whatever we say, their going to do what THEY want in the end.

  437. people are saying that Twilight is the worst, gonna hurt america, blah blah blah.

    but i agree with Starshiner_3 . Why? because she made a point. and that point was why isnt Harry potter and different than Twilight. It’s almost just the same!
    there are werewolves, monsters, wizards, witches, dragons and more!
    That series actually has more creatures that are also so called “offending the christians” or any other stuff that people find offending.
    Now. Masala Skeptic says that this whole thing is about how it is that its gonna effect young women who see or read about this.
    ok i see your point. BUT, as i said before it’s a fantasy thing and i dont think girls are dumb enough to even try to get ideas from that movie.
    yes they will day dream and they will imagine thigs. but i dont think they will actually take action for thier imagination!
    oh and i dont think THREATNING people that your gonna punch thier teeth out is gonna help this discosion either.
    Also. i dont think that Bella is just a blank slate! she has as much personality as Hermoine would! you try tellign me what exact personality Hermoine has and i WILL tell you Bella’s.

  438. Don’t most of you realize that the reason he doesn’t want Bella near Jacob is because he gets angry and turns into a huge wolf that kills people??

    Sure you can say that he is likely to do the same in a way, but that’s why he worked so hard to train himself to withstand her scent. He is not abusive, that term is so loosely thrown around.

    Everyone is taking this too seriously. It’s a really cool series. Some people might not like it, some people might. The beauty of an opinion is that we all get to have our own and none are wrong!

  439. Fine, if you people won’t click the links that I have spammed multiple times to know what my views on Twilight are then I’ll quote them here for you so that you don’t have to make all that effort to click on a link.

    I guess that that alone doesn’t make Twilight bad, cause, after all, we’re not all about to go ban Lolita. But, the difference is give a teenage girl a copy of Lolita and she’ll probably recognize the fact that Humbert Humbert is an abusive, stalkerish paedophile. Give them Twilight and they’ll talk your ear off about how hot Edward Cullen is (even though he is an abusive, stalkerish paedophile). I even saw a girl say that she wouldn’t mind being raped by him (Oh, come on! Jeremy Irons made a pretty hot Humbert Humbert but I’d still like there to be some form of consent, thank you very much).

    I don’t know about you, but I’d kind of hope that girls would be able to recognize that they had a stalker if they had one, and I’d hope that they wouldn’t fantasize about having a stalker like Edward Cullen just because they think that he’s hot. Wouldn’t you be worried if legions of teenage girls failed to see what was wrong with the way Hum treated Lo?

    I hasten to add, though, that some level of unthinkingness is to be expected when reading fiction. I don’t think that we should have to act all serious and intellectual every hour of every day. People do need some amount of unthinking escapism in their lives.

    The way a girl reacts to a fictional novel is most likely not the same way she would react in real life. To be perfectly honest, I don’t actually think there’s much to worry about, but I do think that it can only be healthy to point out more often that the level of stalkerishness in Twilight might be on par with the level of stalkerishness in Lolita.

    My misanthropy increases exponentially.

  440. @Elles: I read your article, Elles! I’ve just been avoiding commenting because I have neither read the series nor seen the movie. I thought your writing was well done, though

  441. “I’m also pretty sure the author had to change more than just the names. Did the vampires in this other series sparkle in sunlight? Did they have vegetarian diets? Did they get someone knocked up? Was the Volturri an important role in these books? Could they come out in the sunlight at all? Did some of the vampires carry on special abilities? Was there a vamp/human wedding? Was the main character a human who became a vampire? Was there a freaky deaky love triangle? What was the only way to kill a vampire in these series?”

    Okay,
    1) in US ( and this is so ewww) they cannot BE vegetarians because when a vamp sucks somebody’s blood they have sex eith them because of reasons I prefer not to go into.

    2) no sparkle sunlight (but that sucks anyways so whatevs.)

    3) A there’s a baby. Yepsidoodles.

    4) No Volturi. Just a BAD A KING AND QUEEN OF THE VAMPIRES EVERYWHERE!!!

    5) They no come out in sunlight because they sleep (and SOME get burned) (but so what?! lots of vamp writers don’t have their peoples sleep!!)

    6) The main charachter has automatic super self control once she is turned (which is something no one else has). And she is turned in the books.

    7) Yes there is a MONDO freaky love triangle. A couple of them actually.
    a) Betsy, Sinclair, & John
    b) Betsy, Sinclair, & Tina
    c) Betsy’s mom & dad & Antonia
    d) Betsy, Sinclair, & Derik
    e) Betsy, Sinclair, & Marc
    *A LOT OF PEOPLE LIKE BETSY*
    *need I go on?*

    8) Yes there are super duper super powers

    9) The only way to kill a vamp? Hmmmm…. Well, which vamp we talkin’ ’bout here?

    Anyways, the major difference is UNDEAD IS FUNNY & Twilight is gloomy. (I mean I constantly pictured depressing backgrounds BEFORE I saw the movie) Anybody else picture constant murkiness/ gloominess?

  442. Okay so I guess I should change that to
    8. Yes there ares super duper super powers.

    p.s. Yepsidoodles is NOT the name of the baby. It’s just a fun made-up word. I like to use those on the occasion.

  443. So there funnyface1201! Ya happy now?

  444. TwilightxSagaxLover no I love the books. I just hate a lot of things about them. Bella, for example.

  445. starshiner_3 STOP RAGGING ON TEENS AS IF WE’RE ALL THE SAME!!!!

    ONE OF MY BIGGEST PET PEEVES IS PEOPLE PUTTING ME IN A COLLECTIVE!!!! I AM MY OWN PERSON!!!! I AM AN INDIVIDUAL!!!!

    AND I AM BEING RAISED TO THINK FOR MYSELF!!!!!

    So please stop

    Yours always,
    Teen_Writer114

    I mean I actually AM fourten!!!!

    14!!!!!

  446. I’m surprised that the homoerotic portions of the movie and books haven’t been discussed yet. It seems perfectly obvious that the only reason Ed hasn’t had hundereds of 17 year old brides over the years is that he is a closeted homosexual vampire raised in a time when this was unacceptable. He has been hiding this for so long that he doesn’t know how to stop. Why else do you think he is such an ass to Bella? Why else would blondie bad boy vampire want to take Bella away from Ed? Because they were closeted lovers in the past and he doesn’t want to lose Eddie. I have nothing against gays. But fat girl Myers obviously has a real problem with them or she wouldn’t have portrayed them as undead monsters of the night who get their jollies off abusing little girls.

  447. @Gabrielbrawley: You miserable yet excellent bastard. :P

  448. @Teen_Writer114: I believe Rebecca has already provided you with a link explaining how to emphasize text without capping everything, so I can only assume that at this point you’re just yelling. In any case, it is usually customary to contain comments in one post, unless responding to separate specific people (which you can indicate by clicking on the little up arrow beside the comment number that conveniently provides a link to their comment).

  449. Thanks, guys. I came for the Top Tens of Jackasses and Skeptics, but I’ll stay for the Twilight-bashing and more skepticism! I think this is going to be one of my new daily-reads. I’m a college student, and I am appalled that so many of my friends seem to worship these books. Edward is clearly emotionally abusive; his behavior is textbook – isolating his partner from her friends and family, telling her how badly he could hurt her and then how much he wants her, stalking her, following her when she leaves. I’d go into more detail, but happily, other people have done it for me; an address bar search for “Edward Cullen abusive” came up with this immediately. It’s just the tip of the iceberg, really. You don’t have to search for this shit in the books. It’s all there for anyone who reads with even a grain of analytical thought.

    @ Elles: I read your review. I thought it was quite good. Perhaps a bit more lenient than I would be, but civil and well-written with a number of valid points. The critics’ problem with it is that you didn’t misspell enough things or capitalize your Edward-love enough, so they couldn’t actually read it. ;)

  450. @Kimbo Jones: I give you a big kiss on the cheek. MMMWWWWAAA

  451. @Teen_Writer114: Please stop yelling at me, use regular case letters like everyone else. I had mentioned before that I would like for teens not to conform to the media’s subtle tones in the movie in which show slight stalkerish acts and naivety. I also mentioned that teens are smarter than what we adults think and won’t put any action forward of immature notions. I wasn’t attacking anyone specifically, I merely stated my opinion. You don’t have to lash out at me with rude comments. I’m sorry if I offended anyone on the comment board. I am a human being just like you, stating my opinion.

  452. Okay, so there are some coincedences. As I stated before I didn’t know the answers to the questions I asked so don’t go gettin all boo-ya in the face okay…tone it down a little bit crazy. I’m sure there are many other things, but those were the questions I came up with off the top of my head. As stated before, if the author of this other series is not creating a fuss, maybe you should stop trying to start a crusade for her. I still think you’re pretty much wrong. Now, I looked on Amazon to see when the first book of this series you speak of was published and it was in March of 2004 (maybe it was just this edition but I think not) and Twilight came out in September of 2005. That’s about a year and a half apart. So, you’re telling me that SMeyer got this book, read this book, wrote an entire book, got a company to approve it, and then had it published all in a year an a half? I’m sure it’s been done but seems highly unlikely in my opinion. And from what SMeyer said, she started writing Twilight in about 2003, of course theoretically she could be covering up from her total lack of ethics when she stole the work of another writer (cue dramatic eyeroll) but seems like a lot of work. So, Just think about about that. I will give you it only took another year for New Moon to come out but she may have had the ideas and groudwork for it started, plus plenty of publishers willing to pick it up. But then again, maybe she really did rip ideas off from this other series, I’m just pointing out facts here so don’t go jumping down my throat.

    What I love most about this thread is that every single one of you has called me an abusive, controlling person and frankly I think you’re all friggin crazy! Darn straight I’d yank parts out of my bf’s car to keep him from seeing some other chick. If my sister was psychic heck yes I’d haver her watch his butt. So, I guess I’m trying to say thank you all for bashing me, the controlling bimbo, because frankly I don’t care! If I’m controlling, so be it. I’ll make sure to tell all potential boyfriends that!

  453. At the risk of stating the blatantly, ridiculously obvious, this thread appears to have hit a nerve. Or three. Just an observation.

  454. sorry. I am dealing with a really “shut the heck up!!!!” thing at the moment. I will go into no further details.

  455. @starshiner_3: Well sorry. I am trying to cleans myself a bit of my father’s… parenting. If you knew him you would understand.

  456. @Kimbo Jones: I will write how I want. This is how I talk on the internet and in texts. Spatially.

  457. So your lashing out at me has nothing to do with the blog. Teen angst is a terrible thing several deal with on a daily basis. There are better ways to handle that than to attack a person with no reason. Thank you for apologizing.

  458. @funnyface1201: I can’t find book 1 in US. I’ll tell you the publication date when I do.

  459. @Teen_Writer114: My heart breaks for you. It is so difficult to be a teenager in the industrial world. What with homework and chores and cleaning your bedroom and your high speed internet conections.

  460. @Gabrielbrawley: Honestly, unless you have some freaky phsychic connection to me and are also a female going through your freshmen year of high school AND you’re going through puberty, shut the **** up and but OUT of my life!!!! Because no one can ever judge someone unless they have lived said person’s life in said person’s shoes. Yeeesh!!!

  461. @Teen_Writer114: Just look on Amazon. You can look inside the book and at the copywrite information. I didn’t just pull random dates out of my butt. Just check it if you don’t beleive me. I’ll understand. Having said that, I’m beginning to doubt some of your claims, although I already did in the beginning.

    @Gabrielbrawley: NICE!

  462. @Teen_Writer114: Small dry kiss on the cheek and pat on the head to you.`

  463. @starshiner_3: Plus there are some things you just don’t say online or anywhere else where it can affect a people’s respect and opinion of you. *sigh* “I’m just a sucker with no self esteem oh wayo” That is a song of my generation. WHAT IS THIS WORLD COMING TO?!?!

  464. @funnyface1201: You know I keep trying to get along with you but you are being an ass.

  465. @Teen_Writer114: You’re starting to piss me off. I’m going to boot you if you don’t start being polite and ditch the caps.

  466. @funnyface1201: Okay, well now I have no idea because the first book is where Betsy dies but it was made in 2004. No ‘in your face’s please because it proves only that neither side can truly be proved. Now please stop lashing out at me because I really don’t care to deal with this anymore.
    Truce?

  467. What do you mean you’re going to boot me?

  468. @Rebecca: Seriously, what does it meean? I’m barely swearing but funnyface is really getting on my nerves.

  469. @Teen_Writer114: “She” aka “the great and bountiful Rebecca” will turn your over her knee, spank you and then you won’t get to comment on the threads anymore.

  470. @Protesilaus: Seth, you seemed to miss the point. With the 4 woman you lived with (or any woman for that matter), did you break into their house, and just stand at the end of their beds watching them sleep?

    ———————

    No. That’s my point. I never watched ANY of my girlfriends or wives sleep. I’ve SEEN them sleep, because we happened to be in the same room and they happened to be asleep, but I’ve never WATCHED them sleep. That would be creepy.

  471. Oh Seth, oh, somehow, oh it is so much more creepy than anything else on this thread and you are trying to not be creepy. Oh jeez.

  472. okay

  473. @funnyface1201: If she’s happy and she feels she is being treated properly then no one else’s opinions really matter.

    ——————–

    Okay. So I’ve known people in abusive relationships. People who were being hit, or controlled, or manipulated. And they all thought they were happy, and that they were being treated just fine, and that no one elses opinions matter. People in abusive relationships don’t think of themselves as being in abusive relationships.

    Moving on, you said “>this:

    “These are all opinions and no one has any right to say anything rude or negative about another person’s opinion.”

    Actually, everyone has every right to say negative and even rude things about other people’s opinions. Sensitive plants just ruin life for the rest of us.

  474. @Gabrielbrawley: Oh Seth, oh, somehow, oh it is so much more creepy than anything else on this thread and you are trying to not be creepy. Oh jeez.

    ————-

    Dude, are you drinking? Because that didn’t make any damn sense at all.

  475. Please stop the personal attacks. I’m fourteen but that’s no reason to act like I’m a 3-year-old. I’m not trying to be rude or anything but, Gabrielbrawley, please stop being condescending towards me. Honestly, it’s not funny.

  476. @sethmanapio: uhm, yah, I’m trying but I have had two bottles of wine. I was trying to say that you distilled all of the creepiness of ed and bella in a few short sentences but you were trying to show how real relationships can be normal, not creepy like a fat mormon would envison them.

  477. I wasn’t trying to be an ass, in your words. I was just telling you where you could look. I fully agree that neither side can be proved to be right or wrong. I’m personally very confunded on the matter and would very much like to know who stole what from whom! I do apologize but once I get into a debate and I’m trying to prove people wrong or trying to make myself right I get a little hyped up and then things just tumble out of my mouth, well in this case fingers. Didn’t’ mean to actually be rude. So, once again I apologize…and now on to attacking another person…lol

    @sethmanapio: Yes, I’m pretty sure most people know they’re in abusive relationships, they’re just usually too deep in denial to admit it. Most people who are being abused aren’t happy…funny thing about abuse that way. Maybe I don’t see this as abuse since I could fully see myself acting that way. I’ve acted that way and I’ve asked exes and they swear up and down that I’m not abusive. See, until you are in a controlling relationshp, you have no clue what you’re talking about. Manipulation, abuse, controlling tendencies, and other things like that are really easy to read about on paper, but until you actually experience it, you’re an idiot on the matter…no offense to anyone but it’s true. Don’t talk about things you don’t understand, psychology degree or not. if You’ve been in said relationshp, then I do apologize, but I still say you’re wrong. And you have no right to be rude to anyone else because they don’t think you’re right about every damn word that comes out of you mouth. And humans are not effing plants you dirtbag and they dont’ ruin anything. Just because you’re an incentive ass doesn’t mean that those of us who feel and have feelings for others are less deserving or something. So just bite me.

  478. @Teen_Writer114: I’m sorry. I am old and it is hard for old people to take young people seriously. I can remeber that when I was 14 everything seemed very important and I just couldn’t understand why the old people in my life didn’t understand how important what I was doing was. But seriously unless you are being tortured, molested, pimped, shot at, hurt etc it really isn’t all that bad. In few short years you will be an adult and will be able to do anything you want. Don’t let the next few years tear you up. They seem like forever but they will pass so quickly.

  479. @funnyface1201: We don’t know. At least I didn’t. I was married to a women for 8 years and she controlled everything about me. I couldn’t do anything without apologizing profuslying even if I hadn’t done anything wrong. I had to be out of the marriange for about 2 years before I even realized what had happend. And I was a tough guy. Come at me with a knife and I knew what to do, but if my wife was pissed I was a trembling pile of jello. The relationship can deystroy you without your knowledge. It is hard.

  480. Why are you calling her fat on the same page in which the affects Twilight has on teens has been discussed? Don’t you realize that that is a very common insecurity among teenage girls? Or don’t you care? Plus, I have honestly heard enough from the perspective of people in relationships and I would appreciate it if everyone would please refrain from talkin about their sex lives. I don’t mean to offend anyone but I’m sure nobody really needs to hear about that. I’m not sure they want to either. So please stop talking about it.

    Respectfully,
    Teen_Writer114

  481. @Gabrielbrawley: No offense, but I do feel the need to step in. Being a teenager, especially these days is hard and it’s not quite as simple as you might think it is. That is actaully rather condescending, sorry if I’m stepping in where I don’t belong but that was actually almost rude. She’s fourteen, which is still young but she’s not six. She knows how the world works for the most part by now. Sorry once again, to put my foot in where it doesn’t belong but something about that statement really bothered me. May have something to do with the psychologist I saw when I WAS 14 saying the same thing to me.

  482. @Teen_Writer114: @funnyface1201: I am sorry.

  483. @Gabrielbrawley: Thanks. Oh, and, by the way, Twilight isn’t my life. Although I can’t say the same for many of my friends. It’s just a book. It’s honestly more entertaining to talk to people about what they think will happen after they die, should abortion be legal?, and again and again I have to tell people that we have our own lives and we need to remember that just because we feel a need to grow up, it doesn’t mean that we have to mimic actors, singers, or edward and bella. But I am lucky in the sense that most of my friends share an interest in writing just like myself.
    Respectfully,
    Teen_Writer114

  484. @Teen_Writer114: Thank you for accepting my apology

  485. It’s cool. I’m not really a teenager anymore. Just irks me when people would give me the one day you’ll understand speach.

  486. @funnyface1201: Don’t even get me started on school social workers. You can’t trust a word they say. Plus they don’t know anything about you except for what they read in your file. If you really want want someone to talk to who will listen and help you out when you need someone to talk to, develope a life long friend who doesn’t follow the herd. Like my best friend Ashley. (She’s my age and she’s obsessed with zoids and werewolves) * Bonus= she’s never read Twilight!

  487. @funnyface1201: I know I sill remember how that would piss me off so much. But funnily enough, “One day you will understand.” Sometime or other so are just so tired that you are just trying to raise you kids, and take care of you wife and you just want to get through it all. Uhmm, where was I going with this? Oh hell with it, just get off my lawn.

  488. *Hugs!!!!!* >:p

  489. That >:P is basically a Yuck! sign in case it looks too happy.

  490. @Teen_Writer114: It was so annoying! They pull the “I understand” mumbo jumbo and they want to know how that makes you feel…and you really just want to hit them. I learned who to trust very early on. Now, I am 21 and much more adjusted, well for the most part. HA!
    Once again, old dude insulted me. How does he know I’m not married with a kid of my own? Or a single mother?? I understand perfectly well what life is about…thank you very much!
    As you may be able to tell, working through my anger issues never worked in couseling because I got too pissed off. Opps!

  491. @Gabrielbrawley: Okay I have to admit that is funny.

  492. @funnyface1201: Yes, I’m pretty sure most people know they’re in abusive relationships, they’re just usually too deep in denial to admit it.

    ———–

    Wow! You’re “pretty sure”! Gosh! I’m just gaping in astonishment over here at the depth of your scholarship and empathy!

    Get real, kid. People do not think of themselves as being in abusive relationships. They don’t see their abusers as being bad people.

    Like you, I’ve been around abuse. And unlike you, I’ve also done some research. Do a little reading, and when you are ready to have a reality based discussion about abuse, let me know.

  493. *laughing so hard I’m forgetting to breathe* :)

  494. Good night to all, this old man needs his sleep. Now don’t stay up to late arquing about them vampires. It will just give you nightmares. Sleep well. Hugs to everyone.

  495. Right, since I’m not a seasoned adult, you think I don’t understand what I’m talking about. I’ve read a lot more books than you could ever really imagine. So don’t get all jackassish around me and assume I haven’t read. I’ve known a lot more victims of abuse then you could possible understand. I’ve volunteered at shelters and most abused people are just afraid. They don’t know what to do. So get off your high horse and suck something because you don’t have the first clue what you’re talking about. You may have been aroudn abused people but once again, you’re an idiot until abused.

  496. This is a little personal but my mom knew and one night it went overboard so she took me and my brothers to the police station and dad got arrested. He was a drunk (not an alcoholic according to him) but now, nine years later he’s sober and it would be cool if he would pay child support so he could come down here and see us. He is really stubborn and kind of arrogant. He seems to be under the delusion that his mind is almighty and righteous. *cough he’s full of it *cough*. But I do remember that night. He was scary but my mom took action. I think, maybe, it varies for different people because they have different personalities; while some are passive, others are assertive, and some are even agressive.

    Yours Thoughtfully,
    Teen_Writer114

  497. @funnyface1201: You may have been aroudn abused people but once again, you’re an idiot until abused.

    —————-

    Gosh, I can’t imagine all the books you’ve read? Wow. Strong words, considering you don’t know me at all.

    Things that aren’t particularly relevant to a reality-based discussion of the general mindset of people in abusive relationships include, but are not limited to, your personal history and the related experiences of people who have left abusive relationships.

    These are called “anecdotes”, and the plural of them is not “evidence.”

    Now, my understanding of the psychology of abuse, based on my experience and research, is that people who are actually in abusive relationships often make excuses for the abuser and blame themselves. They do not see themselves as being abused. Do you have actual information that contradicts this or not?

  498. @Teen_Writer114: This is a little personal but my mom knew and one night it went overboard so she took me and my brothers to the police station and dad got arrested.

    ——-

    How long do you think your mom made excuses for your dad? How long do you think it took her to realize that what was going on was wrong?

    If the very first incident prompted a visit to the police station, she wasn’t in an abusive relationship… she stopped a relationship when it got abusive.

  499. Not all of them blame themselves but for the most part yes. But they do know that they are unhappy and that something is wrong. They may not label it as abuse. Perhaps they blame themselves as an excuse because no one will “understand” the abouse.

    Books on psychology aren’t evidence. They are just the author’s opinions and what they consider “Scientific” research. Most people know abuse, they’re just either too afraid or too ashamed to admit that they they let it happen. All people are different though. Some don’t honestly understand emotional or mental abuse. Some people only see physical abuse as abuse. But almost everyone abusee knows something is wrong, even if they wont’ say the word abuse.

  500. @funnyface1201: Books on psychology aren’t evidence. They are just the author’s opinions and what they consider “Scientific” research.

    ————

    Psychology is fairly primitive as a science, the research tools are imprecise and the subject area is complex. But it doesn’t deserve scare quotes. If you intend that scare quotes for science in general…. oy.

    You should realize that reporting the analysis of large quantities of data is not the same as stating an opinion opinion. You are presenting an opinion. Someone who presents the results of a well designed study is presenting facts. Someone who presents the results of a lot of well-designed studies is presenting a lot of facts.

    But even so, a well educated opinion, from someone who has studied a subject carefully, is worth more than a less educated opinion. All opinion is not equal.

    Your opinion that most people know abuse is not, as far as I know, well supported by the literature. And as far as I know, you haven’t spent much time trying to find out whether your opinion is a fact or not. But you are hinging part of your case for this movie on this opinion of yours. It can’t be abuse, according to you, because the abusee doesn’t recognize it as such.

    But clearly, that isn’t true, is it? And a young girl whose boyfriend starts acting abusive and controlling shouldn’t think that she should accept his behavior. But from what I’m hearing, the message of the books is that it’s okay that he’s controlling and abusive, and she doesn’t mind and eventually she earns more freedom.

    Now, in your experience, does that ever happen? Does the literature of abuse support the idea that an abuser will de-escalate his behavior over time?

  501. I’m totally going to stop this pointless debate because you’re view of facts is scewed. Yes, they did tests and studies on a select number of the population. Sure, they may know more scientific crap but I don’t appreciate someone like you acting all high and mighty like you’re better than me or something. I know what I know. I believe what I believe and I’m not going to agree with you because you’re older and because you have all these “facts”. I think you’re wrong. I don’t think you fully grasp controlling behavior. I don’t think you read the books because she does not just accept this. She pushes it, but slowly so that she doesn’t screw things up with him. She reasons with him and in the end, she wins. She doesn’t like what he’s doing but she understands it. She also realizes he’s a reasonable person. Thats definitely not the trait of a controlling person, I’m pretty sure most would agree with me on that. He has legitmate reasons to keep her away from Jacob. I agree with him completely. So continue bashing me for being a controlling, manipulative person because I am proud of it. Edward is smart enough to realize Jacob is a threat in more than one way. Dude knows what he wants, has what he wants and isn’t going to let it go. however, he always makes it clear that she can leave when she wants. She chooses to stay. Abusers usually aren’t cool with their significant others leaving them like he is. I’m sure you’re familiar with that right? So go on, say Edward’s a controlling, manipulative person and I’ll just nod my head and smile and all the while I’ll be knowing exactly how much you pin things are research and not real life. It’s cool because you are so much older and so much wiser, right?

    yeah, right….

  502. @sethmanapio: I agree with funnyface1201 on the whole thing about Edward not bbeing abusive towards Bella. But you know what, how would I know? Me hiding under the diningroom table with my brothers watching him throw those huge rubbermaid bins full of our hard plastic toys and screaming at her is the only scene I remember of it. But I have heard it time and time again that she told people what the status of their relationship was.

    But it got really bad one night and she didn’t wait around for it to get worse. Who knows? But not all people sit around and wait for it to happen again. Some of them get up and say ‘I am not going to take this’. But the way your mind seems to work, I don’t think you will sway on this. I think you are arguing your point and reading funnyface’s comments just to the point where you can find something to pick at. So please take into consideration that not all people have the same behavior. Maybe to you it seems like they all make excuses because the ones that don’t get out before it can really be considered an abusive relationship. Okay, well, that’s your point of view. Mine, as I have stated before, is that everyone is different and so the outcome of anything depending on a being will vary.
    Respectful Always,
    Teen_Writer114

  503. @funnyface1201: I don’t think you read the books because she does not just accept this. She pushes it, but slowly so that she doesn’t screw things up with him. She reasons with him and in the end, she wins.

    —————-

    This is exactly what I’m saying. In the book, she accepts his abusive behavior and slowly, over time, she manages to get him to change his ways.

    Now, you tell me: does that ever happen? Should a teenage girl who has questions about her boyfriends behavior believe that he’ll get better if only she can find the right words to say?

    And I never called you a controlling person. I’ve called you ignorant. And I think that if you go around saying “I know what I know”, and not caring about how much evidence is stacked against you, you sort of deserve to be called ignorant. You seem proud of it, even.

    I would also call you naive. You don’t seem to really grasp the incredible range of tactics an abuser can use. Sure, she can leave. If her car starts. Of course, he can always find her, and he’s a powerful killer who has admitted to wanting to rip her throat out with his teeth. Yeah. I’m sure she feels totally free to break his heart.

    Look, I think it’s fine that you don’t agree with me. I may be full of shit. But if you think I’m wrong, you should be able to marshall the facts, the data, the information, to back it up. Otherwise, how do you know if I’m wrong or not?

    And if you can’t do that, at least consider the other side: is it actually true that abusers don’t threaten to leave their victims?

  504. @Teen_Writer114: Maybe to you it seems like they all make excuses because the ones that don’t get out before it can really be considered an abusive relationship

    ————–

    I don’t think you understand what I’m saying. My understanding is that people in abusive relationships tend to make excuses for their abuser. When they stop making excuses they start looking for ways to end the abusive relationship. But while they are in the excuse making stage, they don’t see themselves as abused.

    Does that make more sense?

  505. @sethmanapio: But from what I’m hearing, the message of the books is that it’s okay that he’s controlling and abusive, and she doesn’t mind and eventually she earns more freedom.

    @funnyface1201: I don’t think you read the books because she does not just accept this. She pushes it, but slowly so that she doesn’t screw things up with him. She reasons with him and in the end, she wins. She doesn’t like what he’s doing but she understands it.

    FTW.

  506. @Rebecca:
    Please excuse the capital letters I’m about to use. They seem more appropriate in this case than italics or bolding.
    Yours Respectfully,
    Teen_Writer114

  507. @funnyface1201: Right on! Hey, if your boyfriend is hanging around another girl who likes him, why shouldn’t you take a little charge and say, “hey, you better not be thinking about her like that or we’re done here!!!!” As long as you don’t obsess over it ‘s cool right? I think that Edward’s reaction is the best though and I’ve behaved like that with all my friends as far back as I can remember. “Hey your other friend and I don’t like each other. They’re making you choose but I won’t. It’s your life and even if you’re friends with him, I’ll still be your friend as long as you want.

    The only thing I (excuse me Rebecca) NEVER do is cooperate with the idea of being ‘friends in seecret’. Basically, if they’re not brave enough to let people know that you are friends, then they themselves are not a true friend. Basically, with me, if I’m ever with someone who is liked by someone else that they’re friends with, I’ll quote the song El Tango de Roxanne, “You’re free to leave me but just don’t deceive me.”

    I’d be like Edward in the situation. Just the second part. But Jealousy is an irrational emotion; so, if you feel the need to restrict your boyfriend or girlfriend they should understand and comply (unless this is a life-long friend in which case I say, watch very closely and look for any sign of more-than-friendliness. But don’t tell them not to ever see them again because that is a sure-fire way to get dumped.

    But I am all about the whole ‘if you truly love them let them go’ and ‘ whatever makes them happy’ things. The only reasons for a relationship to end on a sour note are 1) if you were always fighting & 2) if they cheated on you or did something illegal involving you with or without your knowledge.

  508. Okay, please don’t label me as naive, but I am among the more innocent of teens (you should hear what I hear in class on the bus! Yeesh!! ). So what does FTW mean?

    Always in Respect,
    Teen_Writer114

  509. @CrrrazyKid:

    The BEST review I have heard for the Twilight series is that “It’s kinda like those books with a really good plot, but horrible writing, where you hate reading it, but the story makes you keep going. It just doesn’t have the good story to make you keep going.”

    I’ll say up front that I’ve never read the book(s) or seen the movie. From some of the previews, it looked like it might be the kind of movie I could enjoy, then possibly regret later having spent money to see it at the theatre (I’m absolutely sure I wouldn’t be alone in this regard).

    From the sound of it, the whole plot of at least this installment seems like a cheap knockoff of the Buffy/Angel story, but with less character depth. (And this is what I make of it after reading the synopses of the fan-kids who posted here, not the OP and skepchick commenters).

    But to get back to the quoted post, and my reason for quoting it:
    Comparing this book/movie to Harry Potter really does sound like a stretch, as they’re clearly not even in the same league. I’d say the best comparison would be Battlefield Earth. A rather mediocre book, resulting in a rather mediocre movie. But: It’s got aliens! A fact which on its own doesn’t manage to save either the book or the movie from being a crappy story.

    I watched BE because I’m a Sci-fi/fantasy geek, (and that would probably have prompted me to go and see Twilight too). I didn’t exactly hate it, because it had some nice special effects, but the story was lame. I fear the same would apply to Twilight (but minus the elaborate special effects and spacecraft).

    Let’s just hope Stephenie Meyer has no ambitions towards starting her own religion …

  510. What’s also bugging me to no end is the cognitive dissonance of the commenters (for the 13 year olds among us, that means two ideas that are mutually exclusive).

    On the one hand, they keep saying “oh, but it’s just a story, why keep getting your panties in a bunch over it. On the other hand, they’re popping up from all over the interwebs to show their dislike of our interpretation of the story.

    We say: Look at how crappy this vampire-kid is treating that girl. He’s a stalker!
    They say: But he loves her, plus, it’s only a story.

    We say: Sure, but that story is giving teenage girls a very warped sense of what real relationships should be like.
    They say: But he loves her, plus, it’s only a story.

    They say: You’re just jealous because you haven’t got a love situation like the two main characters do.
    We say: He’s stalking her! And he’s being a control freak who’s stunting her emotional growth. It’s an abusive relationship. Nobody would want that.
    They say: But he loves her, plus, it’s only a story.

    Make up your mind. Because the relationship described is a very real kind of relationship, and unlike the story, in reality this kind of situation usually ends very ugly.
    Not the basis for a “happily ever after” as so many seem to think, even if it appears to be so at first, or in the story. Remember, it’s only a story. Plus, in reality, he’ll keep stalking you even after you’ve split up and it’s not cute and romantic any more.

  511. @serendipity:

    But part of the splendor in the book is it’s simplicity. Made for 9th grade reading and above level, you can’t expect a lot of depth — it more reminds me of THE LOST BOYS of 1980’s pop culture fame. It doesn’t all have to make sense, after all, that is what fantasy is about.

    No, it’s not really like that.
    Lack of depth is not a problem. Especially if your target audience is kids in their early teens. But the age of the character suggests to me that the target audience is actually girls in their later teens.

    Further more, in fantasy and sci-fi, while not everything has to make sense or be explained, the general idea behind them is to explore human behavior by removing the parts that may normally be obscuring the view. In sci-fi this is done by situating the story in a different time or place, in fantasy by introducing paranormal stuff like magic or paranormal beings. The characters still react normally, because to them the situation isn’t weird in the way it is to us as readers/viewers.

    Twilight doesn’t seem to be doing that though. It’s just added vampires to sell more books, but it’s just a cheap romance novel that doesn’t even paint a very realistic picture of what love is really like, just a picture of a very superficial crush that looks great at first glance, but is completely disfunctional on closer inspection by anyone not in the relationship. Like friends giving warnings.

    The parts that are allowed not to make sense are the fantasy or sci-fi aspects of the story. But if the events don’t make sense, then there’s something wrong with the characters. Like in this case, an obvious dominant-dependant relationship that’s being lauded by all the fans as the ideal of love, but is in fact the opposite.

    In The lost boys, the message was rather clear: look out what kind of friends you hang out with. The cool kids aren’t necessarily the best friends, even though you may think they are.

    I think the failed message in this case is that Bella should have dumped Edward after figuring out their relationship is unhealthy. If not in the first book/movie, then at least later on as things develop.

  512. @Teen_Writer114 and funnyface1201: Ok well *I’m* sorry (not really) but it irks *me* when people rag on other people for trying to do their jobs to help people. Social workers are not mind readers. So when they first meet you, they have very little information. They are just a person trying their best to do their job. They get a lot of crap from their clients and society in general for “not doing enough”. Well if they’re style isn’t working for you, why not tell them that? Ask them to speak to you differently. Give them the information they need. And realize that you are one of about 30 people (or a whole school) on their caseload. It’s not by choice that they are overloaded. Remind them who you are. They have the expertise and the resources to help. Don’t waste it.

  513. @funnyface1201:

    Apparently no one on here ever feels jealous. If my boyfriend we’re going to hang out with some chick who was in love with him I’d throw the biggest hissy fit known to man. It’s not right to make your partner feel uncomfortable. Yes, they trust you but they don’t trust the other person who is in love with you. I’d react the same way Edward did and I probably would no have been able to negotiate the way he did. I’m a jealous person and I prefer my guys to hang out with mainly guys and people who aren’t in love with him. I guess that means I’m forcing him to be in a controlling relationship but whatever. I’ll sleep better knowing he’s not out gallavanting around with some other chick. If he’s going to cheat, he’ll cheat but I’m not about to make it easy for him.

    You are making the point we’ve been trying to make about mature relationships for us.

    You’re obviously not an adult yet, and that’s fine. You may even believe that you and your boyfriend are going to be together forever. Everyone thinks that at some point in their life.
    But you’re not in a mature relationship. Rest assured that the day you throw that hissy fit, your relationship is going to go downhill fast, because the day IS going to come eventually where he has to be in a social situation with someone who may at some point in the past, present or future have a crush on him.

    And from his perspective, you’re going to sound like you don’t trust him, that you’re already convinced he’s going to make a mistake. That YOU are the one who decides who HE can and cannot see. Nobody likes to be told what they can and cannot do. Especially when they see no reason why there could possibly be a problem, since he’s in love with you, not that girl. In essence, he’s receiving the punishment for a crime he didn’t even commit, except in your head.

    And from the perspective of “the other girl” you’re going to appear insecure, like you already know your boyfriend is going to cheat on you. So she has confirmation that she actually has a chance.

    You see, mature adults know that in plenty of situations, they have to deal with people of the other sex. Some of those may even be ex-girlfriends. Mature adults also remember WHY they broke up with their ex-girlfriends, and if he’s not over her yet, then perhaps this is not the guy you should be with at this time. Jealously clinging onto him isn’t going to make YOUR relationship any better. On the contrary.

  514. @Kimbo Jones: Have you ever been betrayed by a social worker? Have you ever had a social worker who sees you remind you of a completely maniacal power-monger from a book you read who is sweet and kindly one minute and then turns on you the next? I have.

  515. @exarch: Hey, stop attackin funnyface 1201 like that!!! I don’t think she means that every girl is out to get her guy!! I think she just wouldn’t want to get hurt one day. (if I offend you funnyface, I am sorry. I do this alot.) Maybe the whole big idea behind this is that, while we have to trust our boyfriend or girlfriend (excuse me everyone please. I’m not exactly up to saying ‘partner’ since I don’t believe in pre-marital sex because you really don’t know that he or she is truly and fully committed yet.) it doesn’t mean that we would feel exactly comfortable with them being around someone who is pining over them like the next book in your favorite series that just came out last Tuesday but you can’t get because you’re tryingto save up due to America’s current financial system. I think that we can all agree to this statemen here (more or less) “Hey, it’s normal; jealousy is a completely irrational fear.”

    Some people just feel the need to have their thoughts heard and anyone who truly loves you will understand that you just don’t want to lose them. That you’re a bit frightened of the idea.

    But as you have reminded us before Kimbo Jones , this is about Twilight so let’s stop biting each other’s heads off unless there’s a book in their mouth!!

    Plus, I have a question. Why does Twilight make us all lash out at each other over our personal lives? funnyface1201 was just making a connection like we have all been taught to do in school. She was just using some personal insight to help us know where she’s coming from.

    So let’s lash out no further towards anyone personal, just their views on the book :)

    Respectfull Towards All of You,
    Teen_Writer114

  516. Oh, I forgot:
    I have moments like that and more so sometimes. I’m just trying to figure out a way to fit phsycology and sociology into my 4 years of highschool while continuing Debate AND (sorry Rebecca. Again, I thought it fit best here.) completeing all of the schools required electives in addition to the four musts.

    Musts are:
    1) Math (Awesome!!!)
    2)English (Fantastic!!!)
    3) Different Science every year (pretty cool.)
    4) History / Geography (we have to learn American history again ?!?!?!?! How many times is that now?)

    *must have 1 1/2 credits of phys ed
    * I sometimes wish it were five musts. I like one whole class for English and another for Literature
    *and those electives I told you about:
    *2-3 years of a foreign language R=2 D=3
    *Fine arts B=1
    *Technology B=1
    *Health B= 1/2
    *speech (my teacher just now got debate to count starting this semester) B= 1/2 Yay!!
    *now I’m finding out, economics B=1/2
    Key for # of credits for Graduation Requirements:
    R = Reccommended & D = Distinguished
    B = Both 1/2 credit = 1 full semester

    And to this I may whine because all though I would willingly go to summer school to get the required electives out of the way, I have no transportation. Boo hoo. <:(

    The rantings and ravings of a teenage girl *sigh*

    Always Respectful,
    Teen_Writer114

  517. @Teen_Writer114: The social worker reminding you of someone is not their fault.

  518. @Teen_Writer114: No one is bitching anyone’s head off except you, Captain Exclamations and Caps.

    PS. Also if your social worker is mistreating you, you have the right to report them. Not everyone is good at their job, but that’s no reason to dismiss social workers in general.

  519. 1) I said biting. It is spelled b-i-t-i-n-g. Biting.

    2) She was cool at first. It’s what she did that made her seem like Mrs. Coulter. And if she doesn’t give you a severe case of the heebie jeebies, I don’t know what will.

    P.S. Mrs. Coulter was very sweet to little childrean so that she could kidnap them and seperate their souls from the. She did all this for a little power.

    Always Respectfully,
    Teen_Writer114

  520. @Teen_Writer114:
    1) Ok then well no one is biting b-i-t-i-n-g anyone’s head off either. Disagreements are not personal attacks.

    2) Again the actions of one person don’t represent a whole profession. Please be a little more careful about such unfair generalizations.

    3) I’m leaving for the weekend. So bye all, happy discussing.

  521. Wait a minute! I was only talking about my personal experience with that particular social worker. But that would be pretty hypocritical if I criticized the whole profession since I want to be either a lawyer or a children’s therapist when I grow up! *sigh* Please don’t start ragging on my age everyone!

  522. @TwilightxSagaxLover: I don’t think that your comment applies to only Twilight readers…I am sure it applies to everyone…

  523. @Teen_Writer114: lol if you knew geography you would know it almost ALWAYS rains in Washington near the ocean. If it’s almost always overcast and usually raining, it’s pretty easy to assume that it’s going to be gloomy…

  524. I was not attacking funnyface1201, I was merely giving her a warning using her own example to start from.

    Hissyfits, like violence, are the last resort of someone who’s out of arguments. You know you’re losing the argument but you refuse to accept it. It’s not a pretty sight when it happens in a discussion.

    If it happens in a relationship, it’s emotional blackmail and/or (in the case of violence) abuse. They’re the kind of tactics that will appear to work for a while, but are actually the first signs of the end.

    But this is, again, precisely the point I was trying to make: the relationship in the book sounds like a very immature relationship, and that’s in itself not so bad. The problem is that unlike reality, this relationship never faces the consequences of that immature behavor. In reality, being overly protective, insecure and jealous will eventually kill a relationship. Which is why it’s not a good example for young girls. And yet they seem to be made to believe it’s the ideal.

    I’m sure that if you DO happen to find a guy who’s just like that adorable vampire boy, except without the blood drinking and being twice the age of your grandmother, it’s unlikely the relationship will last very long, precisely because real guys who are like that will eventually escalate things to a new level of scary.

  525. @Teen_Writer114: So what does FTW mean?

    ———

    In this case, it means “For the Win”. I was pointing out that I made a statement, and that funnyface basically reworded my statement in her rebuttal. It was the same point that exarch is making:

    Twighlight encourages young girls to believe that a person who starts out abusive and controlling can change if only the girl can find the right words to say, and manage not to trigger his rage/jealousy/etc. This is a bad, bad, bad message. Guys who start out controlling do not, as a rule, de-escalate their behavior. They get worse.

  526. 1. Wake up.
    2. See that the comment count on this post has gone up to 526.
    3. Sharp intake of breath.
    4. ???????
    5. PROF- Er… no profit.

    What’s going on here? Has Skepchick turned into the Gaza strip? I’ve seen less vicious arguments about religion (I am to this day bewildered by search engine terms like “how to piss of religious people”). I can only conclude that you people worship Twilight religiously, and anything that is worshiped religiously (fervently and unquestioningly) goes down in my book as “hurting America”.

    Open your minds to the fact that not everybody will like the same things that you like. You don’t have to take it as a personal attack, nor do you have to make personal attacks.

    Jesus Christ and God damn it, calm down. Have a cup of tea. Just walk away from the Internet. Take a walk. Get an ice cream cone. Chop chop. Adieu.

  527. OK here are my thoughts on some/many of the comments – take it for what you will. If you haven’t read the books you have no place bashing them and same for the movie. If you have read/seen one but not the others, what makes you think you can draw direct comparisons to the other, Hollywood’s awesome track record? And no reading what others have said is not the same as having actually read/watched it for yourself – that just makes you a sheep and it is tantamount to using Wikipedia as a primary source verification.

    Personally I enjoy her writing style, but to each his/her own. I do find it fascinating that some of the comments bashing her writing style praise JKR’s. JKR writing style, which I also happen to enjoy, is not exactly critically acclaimed. The one thing JKR is generally accepted to do well is Point of View and I think Stephanie Myers handles POV well as well. Her ability to work with POV becomes more evident in book 4. Her prose is nicely constructed and attractive without crossing into the purple territory. Yes there is a whole lot of teenage angst; I know shocking for YA isn’t it. I do agree that there are things about Bella I find annoying, but in some ways she is one of the stronger characters in the book, or at least grows into one.

    But the best thing about this series and even the movie is it sparking kids to read.

  528. @coreyjf:

    But the best thing about this series and even the movie is it sparking kids to read.

    They said that about the Harry Potter books too, but it sorta came out later that kids were only reading Harry Potter books.

    And keep in mind that this started out as ONLY a review of the movie as a standalone entity. For a review of the books, check out Elles’ post on Teen Skepchick.

  529. another series that I’m getting into is BLUE BLOODS by: Melissa De la Cruz.

    it is another story of Teenage vampires but with a much different atmosphere. It doesn’t have the so called controlling issues from a lead male character, but it does have love triangles, sex, drugs, alcohol etc. etc.

    who could ask for another more controversial book to get everyones ‘panties in a bunch’ and start up more hype on the internet then this series of books that I’m already getting addicted to after reading the twilight series.

    Who knows maybe they will make it into a movie series as well, just to get under the skin of those who have so strongly opposed the Twilight series.

  530. @Teen_Writer114: why not many people talk about selfish and self-centered? I think this is more horrible than jealousy. I am almost at the end of book 3 and I feel like I am reading/watching a poorly made soap opera love affair!! It makes me sick of the selfishness of Bella. And personally I think that’s much worst than a reasonable jealousy in a relationship. I really do not want to continue the book. And is book 4 also about love affair like this? I don’t want to waste time on it!

    Well.. if the ending is Bella chose Jacob and then Jacob eventually found his perfect match and dump her and Bella ends up with someone like Mike Newton (or worse), I may be more happy to continue to read!! But I really feel bad of Edward. He should have a much better choice instead of someone 18 acts like 13..sigh..

  531. But the best thing about this series and even the movie is it sparking kids to read.

    They said that about the Harry Potter books too, but it sorta came out later that kids were only reading Harry Potter books.

    Agreed. It’s a lot like when Evangelicals claim their religion keeps them skeptical of woo. That ‘skepticism’ doesn’t seem to translate to Conservapedia and Fox News. Unless these books are actually getting us yugins (or whatever the vernacular for that would be) interested in writing as a discipline and art form you can’t really claim credit for getting kids to read.

    By the way, I haven’t read all the comments, any of the books (have no intention to) or seen the flick but the few comments I have seen remind me a bit of SH2 fangirls throwing marriage proposals at Pyramid Head’s feet. Kinda freaky but hey, whatever floats your boat.

  532. @ phlebas as a former teacher, I don’t care what they are reading as long as the keep doing it. At the very least it builds reading comprehension. And the YA market is one of the few that is doing well right now, thanks in large part to an increase in teen readership. And yes JKR and SM have help drive YA market

    Other then my comment that even the movie will inspire new readers, I clearly stated I was referring to the comments not the original post.–“ here are my thoughts on some/many of the comments”

  533. rarw!

  534. “Computer, engage thread self-destruct sequence.”

    Lots of heat here, but very little light. This is like arguing about your favorite colors or whether Kirk or Picard is the better Captain, folks. :-(

    I humbly suggest we all abandon this topic, file it under the “Agree to Disagree” column and move on to more productive (and skeptical) topics.

    Anyone with me? ;-)

  535. Wow. Skepchick is the new Yahoo Answers!

    I’m really late to the game on this one. I should be making baba ganoush for my New Year’s Eve party right now. Instead, I’ve spent FAR too long getting caught up on this thread I’ve avoided up to this point.

    Twilight fans: Chill. Out… You’ll find that you’re more than entitled to have a different opinion here on Skepchick, but you’ll have better luck with reasoned arguments and by paying attention to the little red squiggly lines under half of your words.

    Keep in mind that MasalaSkeptic isn’t trying to lead a crusade against all things sparkly. This was a single post about the film in which she raised some interesting and valid questions. Everyone is welcome to express their thoughts on those questions, and there have been a few new commenters in this thread that have expressed themselves pretty well, on both “sides” of the issue.

    I’d encourage any new Skepchick readers to explore the rest of the site. There’s a lot more going on than bitching about Twilight. We’re also bitching about creationists, and planning next year’s War on Christmas. :)

  536. @coreyjf: Sure, I have no problem with books that are popular and encourage kids to read. My entire point, however, is that the popularity of this series may be sending a dangerous message about women, sexuality and relationships to young, impressionable girls. That doesn’t mean I think that girls shouldn’t read the books or watch the movie. It does mean that I think parents and other caregivers should be aware of the messages that are in the books and movie and that it’s a valuable conversation to have to discuss what is good and bad about the relationships. My concern has been primarily with the movie, since, as has been said many times, I have not read the books. I think the message that the movie sends combined with the popularity of the movie and the response to it (I want to a boyfriend JUST LIKE EDWARD) is frightening and it’s important to talk about why the Edward-Bella relationship may not be ideal. I think the danger is that we blow this off as a ‘teeny bopper angsty bubble gum book’ and miss that there may be a fairly scary message about women and relationships that is being promoted. And the popularity of the books and movie is why I consider it something to be concerned about. Because a huge proportion of young, impressionable girls are being exposed to that message.

  537. @QuestionAuthority: Motion seconded. The floor will now move to a vote.

    All in favour say aye.

    All opposed say nay.

  538. aye!

  539. @coreyjf:

    as a former teacher, I don’t care what they are reading as long as the keep doing it.

    Well that’s the thing. What they were doing was reading HP over and over again. I believe you get diminishing returns on reading when you get to the point where you can recite the entire story. I imagine the same is happening with these books.

    I’d love to get into a bookstore database and see how sales of YA books are if you remove Harry Potter and Edward Glittertits from the equation.

    Note that I’m not blaming Stephenie Meyer for that. Kudos to her for writing books that made her rich. It’s not her responsibility to make young people discover reading.

  540. @Masala Skeptic: This would make a really great topic for an English class (books) or media class (movie) in middle school or high school. I wonder if they teach stuff like this now or stick to trying to the classics. I think it would be really beneficial to teach some critical thinking by discussing popular books and movies in a class.

  541. I meant “trying to get kids interested in the classics” but I left out half of the words. Sorry.

  542. @Elles:

    Yeah, probably for the best. Plus, there is two-week-old Truther Bashing happening on another thread :)

  543. Oh, and if readers learn how to write half as well as SM or JKR by reading their books and nothing else, that would be great. From the quality of the writing in this thread (not to mention the comments Rebecca rejected because of bad grammar, etc.), it doesn’t seem like that is happening.

  544. @Kimbo Jones:

    This is just my opinion of social workers in my experience of those I have dealt with, and teens as well.

    I am 26, I grew up with a story book life, an amazing family! We decided to adopt 2 little boys from foster care. Their parents are currently still, after 3 years, drug addicts with extreme psychological issues. We have had nothing but hideous social workers that have dragged the adoption process out for currently 3 years (even though NJ law mandates 12 months as the legal limit).

    We have had problems with one social worker being a little too friendly with the parents (if you catch my drift), and after reporting the problem, found out that the worker’s supervisor is her best friend, and so on up the chain.

    I feel terrible for those that need support in a system of horrifying workers. I do believe that there are a few the care about children and teens, but they are few and far between.

    Also, as stated previously, I am 26, but I do have teenage siblings, and let me tell you all, their opinions are wonderful. They are so intelligent, and observant that they put some adults to shame.

    To the teens on this site, you have every right to be here and communicate your thoughts, because they are yours and many of the ones that I have read are wonderful. You are just as important as any adult, and you have EVERY RIGHT to speak your mind. This is of course a respectful generalization, please do not take offense personally, but maybe if some of the adults on here would be willing to open their minds and listen to the teens, you just might find out a little about your own children, and maybe even a new way to think.

    Again, I think the Twilight series is wonderful, I don’t think there is anything abusive about Edward, the only thing he controls is himself, and that’s because he doesn’t want to hurt Bella as a vampire, not as an abusive man.

    We really need to give teens credit. They can think for themselves.

    For you parents that are worried about how your teen perceives relationships, why not take the opportunity to sit with them and talk about it? Complaining about this book series is not the way to go. Especially if you haven’t read Edward’s side. You can go to Stephanie Meyer’s website and read his short version so that maybe you have a better understanding.

    I think as adults, we are all too quick to judge.

  545. @exarch: Ya know, the best way to piss a person off is to tell them they are not an adult yet. It’s rude, inconsiderate and just plain trashy. I’ve had relationships in high school that were obviously damaging because they were high school relationships. There’s all different forms of relationships out there. What works for you very clearly sounds insanely dumb to me. You classify adult relationships as the kind where I send my significant other off to see his ex-girlfriend who is still crazy in love with him and go about cleaning the house and acting like everything is peachy frigging keen. You say that means I trust their judgement or whatever and that it is a sign of maturity. I consider it a sign of naivety (however the heck you spell that word bad speller here people). To just think that your significant other will be faithful because you trust them is like trusting your sixteen year old son to not have sex if it’s offered to him. Usually isn’t going to happen. My idea of a “mature” relationship is one where my significant other knows how I feel about something and doesn’t ask if he can do it. If he does ask and I say no, he doesn’t push it because he understands my feelings on the matter. If he choses to push it, he does it in a way that is not attacking me. I would do the same for him. He doesn’t want me to see my exes because it makes him uncomfortable, I understand completely and I would never want to do anything to make him uncomfortable. If I were around when he saw his ex or some current girl in love with him, that would be fine. It’s about respect for the other person’s opinions and their comfort level. I’m sorry, perhaps I’m being dreadfully childish, but I don’t think that’s an immature way of thinking of things. No hissy fit would be necessary if he was respectful of how I felt on the matter. To be truthful, if my bf didn’t want to respect my wishes on the matter he’d find himself kicked to the curb real fast. It’s not about insecurity. It’s about me not getting hurt because I was too trusting, too understanding, and too blind to see that he was cheating on me.

  546. I meant to say the hissy fit would NOT be necessary…sorry missed a few buttons

  547. @funnyface1201:
    “My idea of a “mature” relationship is one where my significant other knows how I feel about something and doesn’t ask if he can do it.”

    You are absolutely right about that, FunnyFace. That’s what I mean about adults needing to listen to teens. You guys usually are more on target than people think.

  548. thank you for agreeing with me but I’m not a teenager, okay? I’m 21 frigging years old. Sorry if it sounds like I’m snapping or something.

  549. Uh, yeah, you did snap a bit. I do think it was a little uncalled for, but I’ll guess I’ll push it to being annoyed about the other posts.

  550. yeah, it’s not at you. It’s more at everyone else repeatedly calling me a teenager and what not. I really am very sorry. Didn’t mean to be rude or anything.

  551. @exarch: Hissyfits, like violence, are the last resort of someone who’s out of arguments.

    Amen to that!!!!

  552. @coreyjf: But the best thing about this series and even the movie is it sparking kids to read.

    Again, Amen!!!!

  553. I really didn’t care for either Harry Potter or Twilight, they were both a little fluffy for my ubernerd-techmanualloving tastes. But I was able to make it 132 pages into the first HP, and through _all_ (up to the most recent few) of the HP movies (I actually rather enjoyed them…).

    I made it 3 pages into Twilight before I had to put it down and find _the frakking bible_ for some better written, more believable, less annoying bullshit.

    the silliness that will sell in America- hmph- I guess it’s still true, noone ever lost out underestimating the intelligence of the average American.

  554. I’m shutting down the comments here because I’m still getting idiotic messages like, “OMG TEH BOOKS WER SOOOOOO GOOD’. If you’d like to continue discussing the topic, please go on over to Elles’ post on Teen Skepchick.

Comments are now closed on this post.